Is horrible winter weather ironically good for northern cities?

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure if this is true. Paris maintains much of its medieval streetscape and the resulting population density. In fact Paris has higher peak density than either Barcelona or Naples.

In contrast, I don't think London ever had such a physical layout. Northern European cities generally don't have quite the physical intensity of the southern European ones, and I think this has generally been true since medieval times. Just compare a medieval era city in Germany or the UK to one in Italy or Spain (say, Sienna compared to Rothenburg).

Paris has bigger buildings, but doesn't have many remaining medieval streets (Latin Quarter, Marais, Montmartre). Otherwise these were mostly cleared in the mid-19th century by Hausmann's renovation.

London's medieval cityscape was mostly lost during the Great Fire in 1666. The destruction caused during WW2 also had a big impact on cities in northern Europe. I think you'd be surprised by the density of places like Frankfurt or Cologne before the war.


This was pretty dense:

[CCs77]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

oh please. speak for yourself. no it isn't. i have not noticed any problems listing both fahrenheit/celsius, miles/kilometers and the like here, just like it's done elsewhere. there is nothing to learn and it's not brain surgery. besides, ssp participants are overwhelmingly american. that said, i do wish america would get with the metric system. it'll happen someday soon enough.

I think the key is: use whatever scale you prefer, just add a "C" or an "F" so people know what scale you are using.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

oh yes, compared to london, chicago's winter is significantly colder, no doubt about that, but compared to NYC, chicago's winter is only marginally colder. i was only responding to your lumping of chicago in with edmonton as a "truly cold" city. chicago's winter climate is closer to NYC's than it is to edmonton's. look at december and january when the bottom really falls out on edmonton.


November:
London: 52/40
NYC: 54/42
chicago: 49/35
edmonton: 32/17


December:
London: 47/37
NYC: 43/32
chicago: 35/23
edmonton: 24/8


January:
London: 47/36
NYC: 38/27
chicago: 32/18
edmonton: 21/5


February:
London: 47/36
NYC: 42/29
chicago: 36/22
edmonton: 27/10


March:
London: 52/39
NYC: 50/35
chicago: 47/31
edmonton: 36/19

What is more surprising is that London is at almost the same latitude as Edmonton and at a pretty higher latitude than New York and Chicago.
Even much lower latitude cities in northamerica could be colder than London in january. Tulsa, Oklahoma, at only 36ºN, have a mean temperatures for january of 48ºF/27ºF (8.9ºC/-2.5ºC)

It is also surprising that the record low for London is only -13.6ºC while that is a temperature that New York, located by the sea at a latitude 10 degrees lower, gets every winter, usually several times. Dallas, which is in average warmer than London in january 57ºF/37ºF (13.8ºC/2.9ºC) has had a record lower than London with -19ºC. Even New Orleans, at only 29ºN has had a sligthly lower record than London, with -14ºC. (but with an average for january much warmer than London)

[10023]

^ It wouldn't be surprising if you've heard of the Gulf Stream. Europe occupies a favored position in the world, and its geography and topography also create a climate almost perfectly suited to human habitation.

[CCs77]

Yeah, I know, the Gulf Stream is powerful, but is is still surprising that London doesn't get that cold and cities in Northameica at a much, much lower latitude than London, have had lower temperatures.

[antinimby]

Originally Posted by 10023

^ It wouldn't be surprising if you've heard of the Gulf Stream. Europe occupies a favored position in the world, and its geography and topography also create a climate almost perfectly suited to human habitation.

The temps may be mild for its latitude but the weak sun (when it's not raining or gray) and short daylight hours during the winter can be depressing.

[10023]

Originally Posted by CCs77

Yeah, I know, the Gulf Stream is powerful, but is is still surprising that London doesn't get that cold and cities in Northameica at a much, much lower latitude than London, have had lower temperatures.

It's not surprising. That's a maritime climate for you.

Compare London and Vancouver, which isn't quite as far north, but is somewhere between London and Paris in terms of latitude:

January average high/low:
London: 47/36
Vancouver: 44/35

July average high/low:
London: 74/57
Vancouver: 72/57

Originally Posted by antinimby

The temps may be mild for its latitude but the weak sun (when it's not raining or gray) and short daylight hours during the winter can be depressing.

That's the flipside to the maritime climate. Although London actually gets less rain than most places (partly because thunderstorms are rare). It's just grey.

Annual precipitation (mm):
London: 602
Paris: 650
Chicago: 937
San Francisco: 601
Rome: 804

Annual sunshine (hours):
London: 1,633
Paris: 1,662
Chicago: 2,508
San Francisco: 3,062
Rome: 2,473


In terms of actual precipitation it's like San Francisco. It's the sunshine that's lacking. Note also that Paris gets more rain and barely any more sunshine, despite having a different reputation weather-wise.

[CCs77]

Yeah, I know that every weather has an explanation and it is as it should be. My point is, and with that I end the discussion, that it still can be surprising. I think most people would find surprising that New Orleans has about the same record low than London, even if it has a perfect explanation to it, because London is supposed to be colder than New Orleans. And it is indeed colder, but New Orleans has geographic aspects that made it to have more variability in temperatures than London.

Lima, Perú is in a very tropical latitude, in a desert and at sea level by the sea , knowing just that you would expect heat and sun, make you bring plenty solar protection. I think most people would be surprised by the weather if they go there from june to august, with relatively low temperatures by that latitude and altitude (rarely surpassing 20ºC during that months) and permanently grey skies (the tropical Lima, gets even less sunshine than London, with only 1284 hours) making the solar protection useless.

Of course, the Humboldt Current explains pretty much it all, but that doesn't make that climate less surprising. IMO

[McBane]

For every one person who leave the burbs for the city to avoid driving in the snow a handful of times a year, how many people leave the area altogether for the sunbelt? Sorry, but the premise of this thread is a little flimsy.

[Centropolis]

it's certainly interesting to think what might happen if the gulf stream were disturbed. Although, it appears that it is not the only reason for Europes warmth.


upload.wikimedia.org

the rocky mountains make the westerlies wiggle...


http://all-geo.org

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Could more of these shitty, snowy winters spur people to live in more densely populated places with more resources within walking distance, with employers following suit?

Certainly doesn't go down like that in Alaska. Anchorage is densifying, but strictly because it's a geographical issue, not because people want to walk around more in cold climates. The preferred transportation model is warm car parked in warm garage, driven to another warm garage, or convenient surface parking if they must.

Now, I don't know how that applies to the situation in the Lower 48, where it appears that the climate may be shifting to produce more frequent harsh winters where they were uncommon before. Obviously, urban areas aren't going to magically spread out to allow everyone to drive their own personal 4x4 snowplow.

I've always marveled at how Canada wound up with such a fundamentally different relationship between centralized urban areas and suburbs, compared to the decentralized mess most US cities have developed into.

[10023]

I think the other reason for Europe's relative warmth is that the Sahara acts as a giant convection oven, and blows hot air north across the Mediterranean. Most of that gets confined to Southern Europe (by the Alps), but west of the Alps you get southerly winds (e.g., the Mistral) which can bring warmer air to England.

Sort of like how Chicago (and the rest of the Midwest) can have wildly variable temperatures in spring and fall, depending on whether the air is coming down from Canada or up from the Southwest.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

I've always marveled at how Canada wound up with such a fundamentally different relationship between centralized urban areas and suburbs, compared to the decentralized mess most US cities have developed into.

What's to get? It's race (and more defensibly, crime).

[chris08876]

Bad weather does give us nice shots like this:


Credit: Nathan Kensinger

But thats the only thing its good for.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by Jasonhouse

Certainly doesn't go down like that in Alaska. Anchorage is densifying, but strictly because it's a geographical issue, not because people want to walk around more in cold climates. The preferred transportation model is warm car parked in warm garage, driven to another warm garage, or convenient surface parking if they must.

Now, I don't know how that applies to the situation in the Lower 48, where it appears that the climate may be shifting to produce more frequent harsh winters where they were uncommon before. Obviously, urban areas aren't going to magically spread out to allow everyone to drive their own personal 4x4 snowplow.

I've always marveled at how Canada wound up with such a fundamentally different relationship between centralized urban areas and suburbs, compared to the decentralized mess most US cities have developed into.

In a suburban setting, or an urban one with a driveway fronting a house, homeowners will buy a snowblower, not a pickup with a plow to clear snow. On the street where I used to live in the suburb of Pointe-Claire in Montreal, a lot of folks owned a snowblower. In the city neighborhood I moves to last year, hardly anyone uses small machinery and rely solely on city snowclearing which has become a gigantic operation and is fairly efficient.

The city estimates that freezing pipes this year in Montreal are up ten times the usual count. City crews help homeowners thaw pipes as well as tending to infrastructure damage. This winter has been the coldest since 1900, and oftentimes, city mains break due to freezing, producing giant geysers on city streets.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by CCs77

Yeah, I know, the Gulf Stream is powerful, but is is still surprising that London doesn't get that cold and cities in Northameica at a much, much lower latitude than London, have had lower temperatures.

Maritime climate versus continental climate.

Another example is San Diego versus Phoenix in the summer. Same latitude, but SD is maritime and remains a mild 78 versus Phoenix which is continental and averages 106 in July.

Phoenix in the winter is much colder than San Diego. They often drop to the 20s-30s overnight, where we stay in the upper 40s-50s.

[Private Dick]

I like winter. And I like being ready for it to be over. I get sick of it as much as anyone else. Makes spring all that much more magical and welcome.

Life is far richer with the experience of actual, definitive seasons. You're simply exposed to many more experiences, and you gain a greater understanding of the Earth and how humans react to their changing environment -- in all the various forms.

Though I've lived in southern climates from Miami to Texas to the Deep South to Southern California, and still enjoy visiting (well, not Texas), I much prefer life in the 4 distinct seasons of the Northeast. Life is just more interesting, and as a reflection of that, people are more interesting here too.

[Trantor]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Same note regarding Latin American countries. Except for Chile and Colombia, they seem as backward as we are in that respect.

interesting enough, Chile only has plenty of economic freedom due to General Augusto Pinochet, who in the 80s, when the country was facing also economic crisis, decided to follow the neo-liberal measures of the Washington Consensus (and since he had an iron grip in the country, he was able to do it without socialists whining about it)

[fflint]

^Pinochet murdered my friend's mother. You are a fool to think the way he ruled was a good thing.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by fflint

^Pinochet murdered my friend's mother. You are a fool to think the way he ruled was a good thing.

Agreed. I know someone whose relatives suffered from this too. They even moved over here because of him. But Chile is fine now anyway.

[Jasonhouse]

Originally Posted by fflint

...You are a fool to think the way he ruled was a good thing.

He didn't say that.