Comprehensive Freeway Plans

[J Church]

re: neil goldschmidt and the mt. hood freeway - damn straight!

Rail Claimore - I recall seeing a general map of the Tokyo metro that showed only a freeway spanning what looked like some islands in its harbour next to the central city, with no other freeways going through the centre (some spurring a bit within city borders).

And I guess the thing about freeways being more Tokyoesque than fit for San Francisco shows that the freeway issue, outside of the destruction of buildings should they occur, is much a matter of personal preference for aesthics.

And another thing- I heard once that there used to be a plan for I-495 going through midtown Manhattan between the Queens-Midtown and Lincoln tunnels... anyone know if that's true?

[pdxstreetcar]

/\
Yeah if Robert Moses had his way it would be there now. But the residents of Greenwich Village put up a fight led by Jane Jacobs author of The Death and Life of Great American Cities. I believe it would have displaced 10000 people.

Just as an edit to my last post - I know that for the majority of people at least find that relatively historic density of San Francisco discourages freeways more, and I can't say I disagree with that, but just saying it's still opinion.

pdxstreetcar - if I'm not mistaken isn't the Village much south of the Lincoln/Queens Midtown tunnels?

[Rail Claimore]

Rail Claimore - I recall seeing a general map of the Tokyo metro that showed only a freeway spanning what looked like some islands in its harbour next to the central city, with no other freeways going through the centre (some spurring a bit within city borders).

Tokyo has a lot of elevated expressways and tunneled expressways in its core. In fact, the Imperial Palace is completely surrounded on all sides by mostly tunneled freeways or elevated ones that are a few blocks away.

pdxstreetcar, I was imagining your typical elevated Tokyoesque urban freeway in that picture of Van Ness with supports right in the median. It just doesn't fit in that picture at all. That's what I was refering to.

[tunnelbana]

I recall hearing about a proposal to build an expressway across midtown Manhattan as well. And I found this map from 1964 of the existing and proposed freeways in the area.



I'm glad that didn't go through. It would have totally broken up the city. It looks like there were also plans to build an expressway across Harlem.

A great site to get info on roads in the New York Area is www.nycroads.com
and for more detail
www.nycroads.com/roads

This site says that as early as the 20's a Mid-Manhattan Expressway was envisioned to cross the island at 30th Street. It was also adopted into the 1941 master plan. It would have linked the Queens-Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels.

[Jazzman]

LOL I actually think those six or eight expressways across Long Island Sound would've been kind of cool. Enviornmentally destructive? Yes. It would've been a lot like the bridge/tunnel (forgot what it's called) that hooks up Virginia Beach with the Delmarva Peninsula of VA.

Anyway, those NY freeway plans are VERY scary. The idea with the Midtown Manhattan Expressway apparently was to connect the Lincoln and Midtown tunnels, to make the ride from Jersey to Long Island seamless and smooth. But it wasn't worth it because of the effect it would've had on Midtown.

[Rail Claimore]

I could see that expressway through midtown and downtown New York being built only if it was set up where it woudl be a straight tunnel through the island without any exits onto the island. In other words, direct from Jersey to Long Island going UNDER Manhattan. The "exits" for Manhattan would be the existing tunnels from both sides. I'd also set those tolls quite high as well.

[Cirrus]

The uber-nasty DC plan from 1961:

[J Church]

be very afraid.



lots more at cahighways.org.

[MSP]

I was thinking the same thing as you Rail.

Here is the Twin Cities(courtesy of www.ajfroggie.com)

[Jazzman]

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

I could see that expressway through midtown and downtown New York being built only if it was set up where it woudl be a straight tunnel through the island without any exits onto the island. In other words, direct from Jersey to Long Island going UNDER Manhattan. The "exits" for Manhattan would be the existing tunnels from both sides. I'd also set those tolls quite high as well.

Yeah those tolls would be high as hell. People in Jersey are hit hard when it comes to tolls, whether driving within their own state or over to New York, especially since, if I recall correctly, all of the Port Authority crossings toll those coming from Jersey to New York but never vice versa.

Anyway, the idea your proposed sounds pretty good but expensive as hell. How would that have interfered with the intricate network of subway lines, utlity lines, water, etc. in Midtown? It might've been something to top the Big Dig in terms of complexity and financial strain had your proposal been built.

[ajfroggie]

Originally Posted by MSP

I was thinking the same thing as you Rail.

Here is the Twin Cities(courtesy of www.ajfroggie.com)

Well...that would explain where my bandwidth is leeching from...:o)

A note about the Twin Cities cancelled freeways (which reminds me...I gotta improve that graphic), in my research, I found proposed freeways or parts of freeways in Minneapolis and St. Paul that were proposed through the 1960s. Of those 18, only 7 saw any appreciable construction. Some of the cancelled ones, like MN 55/Olsen Hwy west of downtown Minneapolis, were cancelled because they were seen as excessive duplication (in that case paralleling now-394 to the south). Some, like a MN 65 freeway along/near Central Ave in northeast Minneapolis, were cancelled because it was later determined that there was no need for a freeway. Some, like I-335 and MN 55/Hiawatha Ave, were vigorously opposed, and subsequently cancelled due to the opposition (both of those went as far as ROW acquisition....I-335 as designed didn't really have much purpose, but Hiawatha Ave would have been useful as a freeway and would've reduced the need to widen I-35W). As far as I can tell, two of the proposed freeways in St. Paul weren't built simply due to lack of funds, and then lack of interest, though it's possible US 61/10 southeast of downtown St. Paul could be ressurected....that one would be useful as a freeway, or better yet as the limited-access parkway that was proposed in the '60s.

That Mid-Manhatten Expressway was another of Moses' babies, the most "feasible" of three such Manhatten-crossings. The final proposal was an 8-lane elevated monstrosity 100-ft above the ground, to be built directly over 30th street and a 100 ft strip of land on the street's south side that was (and still is) occupied by skyscrapers--which they would have had to tear down. Fortunately for Manhatten, the city's Planning Commission pestered the Mayor until he let them do an (unfunded) study of the proposal and render a second opinion. Moses pitched a fit and killed the project--along with the temporary construction jobs it would have brought and the "Big Solution" to a traffic crisis that the Mayor was counting on pointing to in the next election campaign.

Every single one of those built/proposed freeways on tunnelbana's map was either an actual Moses project (the ones in New York) or one that he consulted on/inspired (the ones in New Jersey). He employed a lot of people over the years, and many of the major players in the freeway binge of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were either ex-employees of his or consulted with him.

[Rail Claimore]

Jazzman, I don't know too much about civil engineering, but while a trans-Midtown tunnel would be expensive as hell, New York is one of the few cities in the world, as I was pointing out earlier, where a project like that would be economically justifiable given the metro area's status as a major port and center of industry, as well as having a large population with extremely high land values. New York meets all the requirements to economically justify such infrastructure projects. In this case, the question is politics.

And I don't suspect the tunneling under Manhattan would be quite as expensive as Boston's Big Dig for one primary reason: Manhattan is gridded, and thus, it's infrastructure on the island will be gridded in an organized fashion. Building a tunnel under Manhattan requires finding the right place and endpoints and it would be relatively straight. Part of the reason Boston's Big Dig was so expensive is that they underestimated the cost of moving existing infrastructure. If you did it right, you would not have to move as much in Manhattan, if any at all.

[DenverTrans]

Washington DC
1946 Deleuw Cather Co and Greiner Co Transportation Plan for Washington DC., which proposed an expressway along the Washington Mall. Here are a few of the pages. I have the entire book scanned and made into a high-res PDF. Maybe Cirrus could post it on his website?















DuPont Circle underpass with streetcar tunnel (now abandoned):


Underground streetcar plan as an alternative to building the subway. The subway won out, though DC should have kept its streetcar lines!


Expressways are "Foolproof":

[MSPtoMKE]

Oh, a freeway on either side of the Mall in DC! What a great idea! Pass the crack pipe over this way, please.

Yes, its a shame about loosing the streetcars, as in almost every other US city.

Great find, DenverTrans.

Interesting point about the grid system Rail.

I have to say though that the diagram of the freeway along the Mall looks rather creative and interesting... with one direction of the freeway on either side of the park, and half-diamond (either ramps pretty much parallel to the exit streets from the start of the exit, or parallel to the highway itself exiting onto a service road) exits that don't cross over, thus it doesn't take up space in the park. And it doesn't appear to be elevated much (maybe not at all if it replaces the surface streets) or require widening. That's as feasible of a plan for an urban freeway without going underground as you can get.

[ltsmotorsport]

Here is Sacremento.



Right now, it looks like something to the effect of the hwy 65 extension will be built, either on Hazel or Sunrise. At least in those areas, it is mostly suburban housing and it wouldn't destroy the area to alliviate traffic in the area.

The proposed 143 was the big outrage. Charmichael residentsgot that idea thrown out.

[ltsmotorsport]

I hate to say it, but at the rate houses are being proposed and approved around here, hwy 16 really needs to become fwy 16. In just ONE project, there are plans for 22,000 homes on a huge swath of land. Reckless planning and nothing being done (infrastructure wise) to compensate for it.