What city skylines do you think underperform for their population?

[Symz]

I always liked Edmonton's skyline, Epcor is a great density filler. I think Edmonton could use a more signature building soon though.

[north 42]

I think Edmontons' skyline would blow any American city's skyline of similar size out of the water. Even then, most American cities have much larger geographical CMA's than their Canadian counterparts, so their greater metropolitan numbers are much more inflated.

Take Windsor for example, our CMA doesn't even include all of Essex county, while Grand Rapids Michigan has a CMA that takes in 4 surrounding counties. Our city numbers are about the same, but our metro numbers are very different. Their metro population is 775,000, and their combined statistical area population is 1,320,000. Our metro population is 323,000. I don't understand why American metro sizes are 4 times the size of their Canadian counterparts.

[someone123]

Much of the US is also very densely populated, especially along the East Coast, in the Midwest, California, etc. There's a lot more small town and rural population included in something like the Toledo, OH CSA than in the Regina CMA.

[jodelli]

Originally Posted by north 42

Take Windsor for example, our CMA doesn't even include all of Essex county, while Grand Rapids Michigan has a CMA that takes in 4 surrounding counties. Our city numbers are about the same, but our metro numbers are very different. Their metro population is 775,000, and their combined statistical area population is 1,320,000. Our metro population is 323,000. I don't understand why American metro sizes are 4 times the size of their Canadian counterparts.

Even if we used the American methodology which uses county boundaries for calculating metros Windsor's still would be hanging around the 400,000 mark(pending the new census results).

Windsor's problem in an expansion sense is that it is on a peninsula. In the picture below the international border hems us in from the west and north, and Lake St Clair from the northeast. (the lake is directly behind me where this picture was taken near the Windsor / Tecumseh boundary). Lake Erie and more border are to the south.




Here's the censored version of the skyline for the canuckian thought police:


Windsor could do better with its land use however. The cities of Boston, San Fran and Vancouver all have a similar amount of land area but with nearly 3 to 4 times the population each. And all are at least partially confined to peninsulas.

[c@taract_soulj@h]

Hamilton - yeah, we have a dense core with a plethora of apartments/condos but our skyline under performs as a whole. Visually, it looks great from the many different angles the city offers but like Flar said about Ottawa, it's blase and really needs something to stick out from the ordinary. As builder of Landmark Place Al Frisina even said when building something taller, 'the demand's not there and nobody's crazy enough to do it.'

Halifax - In my opinion, the city has a great skyline for it's size and it appeals well with the natural topography. I enjoy the architecture but I think maybe another 100m building or two would work even better.

Saskatoon - River Landing will be a big help! In comparison to it's southern counterpart building-wise, it does under perform but I enjoy the area it covers and I've always loved a city on the river and again it's very natural! The view you get when you cross the Buckwold Bridge is impressive so things are only improving!

K/W - The entire city is shaped like a pretzel with very narrow streets especially downtown. Unf, it'll take some time before they come up with a skyline that performs to its population.

Windsor - Kinda reminds me of a Burlington style skyline with the waterfront. Burlington's GTA while Windsor isn't but Windsor has the Damler Chrysler building and casino while Burlington doesn't. I've always like Windsor though but it will always be in the shadow of Detroit, even if it did "over-performed"

Brantford - Bet no-one thought of that one

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by c@taract_soulj@h

Windsor - Kinda reminds me of a Burlington style skyline with the waterfront. Burlington's GTA while Windsor isn't but Windsor has the Damler Chrysler building and casino while Burlington doesn't. I've always like Windsor though but it will always be in the shadow of Detroit, even if it did "over-performed."

In the shadow of Detroit? I actually enjoy the buddy-buddy relationship Windsor shares with the Canuckian-American city.

And I do not agree with your postulation of Windsor's absolute inferiority to Detroit. Windsor has the benefit of not being in the U.S., therefore being protected from their political and economical ramifications, at least directly. Detroit, unlike Windsor, lost over a quarter of its population recently with only minimal recovery.

Windsor's rate of growth, once it achieves momentum, may very well surpass Detroit's for a drawn-out period. As an enthusiast of urbanism, I would look forward to the day of Windsor giving Detroit's skyline a run for its money; at the very least, Windsor would be returning Detroit's favour of being an attractive backdrop for their downtown.

And I do wish Ontario would pay more attention to Windsor's stagnation; its one of the few major Canadian cities not seeing growth. The province does play a role in Windsor's urban planning, and this city is ridden with surface parking in its downtown that needs to see more infill in order to create a more stable revenue base.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

In the shadow of Detroit? I actually enjoy the buddy-buddy relationship Windsor shares with the Canuckian-American city.

And I do not agree with your postulation of Windsor's absolute inferiority to Detroit. Windsor has the benefit of not being in the U.S., therefore being protected from their political and economical ramifications, at least directly. Detroit, unlike Windsor, lost over a quarter of its population recently with only minimal recovery.

Windsor's rate of growth, once it achieves momentum, may very well surpass Detroit's for a drawn-out period. As an enthusiast of urbanism, I would look forward to the day of Windsor giving Detroit's skyline a run for its money; at the very least, Windsor would be returning Detroit's favour of being an attractive backdrop for their downtown.

And I do wish Ontario would pay more attention to Windsor's stagnation; its one of the few major Canadian cities not seeing growth. The province does play a role in Windsor's urban planning, and this city is ridden with surface parking in its downtown that needs to see more infill in order to create a more stable revenue base.

I agree with a lot that you have said about Windsor, but things are changing for the better here now. Our economy is slowly becoming more diversified, and the city is finally being run properly, enabling us to invest in our future more effectively. Hopefully we get more investment in our city centre to go with all the new projects happening in the next couple years. The Aquatic Centre will take over a huge amount of surface parking lots in the core now, so that will really help with that problem.

[Chadillaccc]

Edited in my opinion

Bolded are my changes to "Goodthings" list.

Originally Posted by goodthings

What did I miss?

WAY Overachievers:
- Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary

Overachievers:
- Halifax, Regina, Yellowknife, Niagara Falls, Burnaby, Mississauga, Saint John, Kelowna

Good:
- Montreal, London, Quebec City, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Moncton
- Victoria (can build more and/or taller to overachieve)

Definitely something missing:
- St. John's, Windsor, Surrey, Prince George, Lethbridge, Brandon

Underwhelming:
- Fort McMurray, Thunder Bay, Laval, Longueuil, Barrie, Kingston, Fredericton, Red Deer, Trois-Rivieres, Sudbury, St. Catharines, Saguenay, Kamloops
- Whitehorse (I understand though since the airport is above them)
- Ottawa (I understand since no building should be taller than the Peace Tower)

Desperately needs ANYTHING:
- Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Peterborough
- Vaughan (coming soon), Markham, and many more suburban cities and large towns.
- Brampton (come on, your population is approaching Mississauga's and yet you have none to show)

[eemy]

Desperately needs ANYTHING:
- Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Peterborough
- Vaughan (coming soon), Markham, and many more suburban cities and large towns.
- Brampton (come on, your population is approaching Mississauga's and yet you have none to show)

Kitchener-Waterloo has a skyline, as underwhelming as it may be. It seems a bit strange to be saying it needs anything when it quite clearly has something.

[Chadillaccc]

Uhhh........huh.

[koops65]

Lets be clear about the KW skyline. Yes, Waterloo Region has half a milliion people, but there are 3 separate cities. Kitchener, as a city on its own, is slightly less than half that total. The Kitchener skyline is average for a city of a quarter million. Waterloo has a skyline that is actually quite good for 120 000, and Cambridge is the total underachiever. So, combined together, the skyline sucks. I grant that. Lots of people, not many highrises, and NOTHING over 100 metres. Terrible combination...

[eemy]

Originally Posted by koops65

Lets be clear about the KW skyline. Yes, Waterloo Region has half a milliion people, but there are 3 separate cities. Kitchener, as a city on its own, is slightly less than half that total. The Kitchener skyline is average for a city of a quarter million. Waterloo has a skyline that is actually quite good for 120 000, and Cambridge is the total underachiever. So, combined together, the skyline sucks. I grant that. Lots of people, not many highrises, and NOTHING over 100 metres. Terrible combination...

Considering Cambridge is also a combination of three different towns, it's not surprising that it underperforms either.

And, just to give it a plug (because it gets picked on a lot), the folks in KW are doing a lot of things right when it comes to city building.

[isaidso]

Over achievers
Yellowknife
Vancouver
Calgary
Regina
Mississauga
Toronto
Niagara Falls
Halifax

What you'd expect
Victoria
Kelowna
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Hamilton
London
Saint John
Moncton

Under achievers
Saskatoon
Windsor
Kitchener-Waterloo
St. Catharine's
Oshawa
Ottawa
Quebec City
St. John's

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Considering Cambridge is also a combination of three different towns, it's not surprising that it underperforms either.

And, just to give it a plug (because it gets picked on a lot), the folks in KW are doing a lot of things right when it comes to city building.

Indeed - not much to inspire the lovers of skylines, but a terrific place to live. Waterloo is doing very well thanks to the universities and high tech and Kitchener's Downtown, in particular, is experiencing an impressive turnaround.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Over achievers
Yellowknife
Vancouver
Calgary
Regina
Mississauga
Toronto
Niagara Falls
Halifax

What you'd expect
Victoria
Kelowna
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Hamilton
London
Saint John
Moncton

Under achievers
Saskatoon
Windsor
Kitchener-Waterloo
St. Catharine's
Oshawa
Ottawa
Quebec City
St. John's

Winnipeg needs more than three towers of almost the same height at the same intersection!

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by armorand93

Winnipeg needs more than three towers of almost the same height at the same intersection!

Perhaps you're comparing Winnipeg to Calgary which is 1.7 times bigger and one of the biggest overachievers on the world when it comes to skyline. Winnipeg's skyline is about the size I'd expect for a city of 760,000.

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Perhaps you're comparing Winnipeg to Calgary which is 1.7 times bigger and one of the biggest overachievers on the world when it comes to skyline. Winnipeg's skyline is about the size I'd expect for a city of 760,000.

Population of 660 000. I don't understand why Metro Stats are used when talking about skylines. The people outside the actual city really do nothing if not draw away from potential skylines. Anyways if you compare any other city with a population of 660 000, you would find it has a very impressive skyline. So do most cities in Canada for that matter.

[Dwils01]

Originally Posted by goodthings

What did I miss?

Hyper Super Duper Extremely Way Too Much Legendary Beyond The Most Heavenly Overachievers Possible in the Entirety of the Universe:
- Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary

Overachievers:
- Halifax, Regina, Yellowknife, Niagara Falls

Just OK:
- Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Hamilton, Moncton, Victoria (can build more and/or taller to overachieve)
- Burnaby, Mississauga (can clump buildings together to overachieve)

There's this something that's a little uncomfortable:
- St. John's, Saint John, St. Catharines, Saguenay, Montreal, Kelowna, London

Underwhelming:
- Fort McMurray, Thunder Bay, Windsor, Surrey, Laval, Longueuil, Barrie, Kingston, Fredericton, Red Deer, Prince George, Lethbridge, Quebec City, Trois-Rivieres
- Whitehorse (I understand though since the airport is above them)
- Ottawa (I understand since no building should be taller than the Peace Tower)

Desperately needs to AT LEAST create:
- Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph, Peterborough, Kamloops
- Vaughan (coming soon), Markham, and many more suburban cities and large towns.
- Brampton (come on, your population is approaching Mississauga's and yet you have none to show)

I know that northern Ontario cities are not much skyline wise, but now I feel insulted. There are many reasons why we don't have big skylines. Northern Ontario mostly focuses on manufacturing and natural resources which dosen't do too much to benefit a skyline. But for cities of 110,000 or 75,000 they are not that bad. We actually had complements from a school in Seoul on how the Sault has very big buildings for such a small place when they came here in 2009.

Our northern Ontario skylines are expanding as we become less independent on manufacturing and mining and focus morre on our downtown cores. We are all building more in our downtown's to make them better but sometimes city hall gets in the way of progress and it takes so long to get something built. If Thunder Bay wasn't two different cities it would probably have a big downtown and if we actually get another highrise in the Sault and OLG dosen't leave our biggest office building almost vacant, we may get better. It will take time but we will get there no that we are not totally relying on manufacturing for the life blood of our cities.

[reidjr]

The Ottawa skyline will be much better in the next few years with many buildings under construction i do think the skyline will be much different.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

Population of 660 000. I don't understand why Metro Stats are used when talking about skylines.

Many of the people in the CMA work in the city (that's why they're in the CMA). That contributes to how built up the city becomes, even if the people don't live there.