Gordo is gone!

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Isn't it a bit pompous on your part that just because someone doesn't agree with you that they don't understand your concept. I understand your concept I just don't agree with it.

My experience debating with socialists has taught me that they have very selective listening and thinking skills. In other words, their minds are usually closed to the possibility that socialism doesn't work because they have made up their minds that it does, so it doesn't matter how thorough, logical or persuasive my argument is, it rarely permeates the brain of the average left-winger. That's not being pompous, that's my experience.

Originally Posted by cabotp

If you had two kids one from a rich family the other from a poor family. In terms of education the rich kid will more than likely get a better education than the poor kid. The poor kid due to having a lower education will have a greater chance of living a life of poverty. This is just one example where user fees or the idea behind them benefit the rich over the poor.

You've really never heard of scholarships?

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Despite Mao being the last three letters in LMAO not too many people were having a great time.

[Phil McAvity]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

User fees with means testing seems fair to me. if jimmy Patterson could collect old-age pension and the GIS, that would make no sense to me. Means-tested pharmacare and MSP premiums along those lines also seem fair. You can always adjust the premium cut-offs if you are worried about impacts.

Firstly, Jimmy's last name is Pattison, not Patterson. Even though it is a very common mistake, it still bugs me. Secondly, why should Jimmy not get OAP like everyone else? I think if anyone in this province deserves it it's him since he has probably created more jobs, wealth and opportunity than any other person in BC's history. If that doesn't entitle the guy to OAP, I don't know what does. Of course Jimmy is so rich he doesn't need the little pittance that everyone else gets from the government since he is a self-made multi-billionaire, but that's not the point.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

Firstly, Jimmy's last name is Pattison, not Patterson. Even though it is a very common mistake, it still bugs me. Secondly, why should Jimmy not get OAP like everyone else? I think if anyone in this province deserves it it's him since he has probably created more jobs, wealth and opportunity than any other person in BC's history. If that doesn't entitle the guy to OAP, I don't know what does. Of course Jimmy is so rich he doesn't need the little pittance that everyone else gets from the government since he is a self-made multi-billionaire, but that's not the point.

b/c that few hundred dollars a month that means nothing to a billionaire can make a huge difference to another pensioner if it's redistributed.

I don't think giving him OAP will make him feel more valued as much as his Order of British Columbia. OAP will likely make him feel guilty of directing money away from poor seniors that need it.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

b/c that few hundred dollars a month that means nothing to a billionaire can make a huge difference to another pensioner if it's redistributed.

I don't think giving him OAP will make him feel more valued as much as his Order of British Columbia. OAP will likely make him feel guilty of directing money away from poor seniors that need it.

Exactly. Yaaay!!

[jlousa]

I disagree completely with the last two posts. He paid into CPP the max amount, he is already subsidizing citizens as is. If he feels guilty about receiving the pension he can donate it himself or just not apply for it at all. I see no reason for the government to punish him for all his hard work.

[Yume-sama]

I would find it amusing if he had applied for OAP, but surely, as someone who has paid tens (or hundreds?) of millions in taxes he is entitled to the pocket change. Surely if you think YOU are entitled to his money, than he is, too. It's not like the taxes were even 1% worth it to him personally You can have as much class warfare as you want (in fact you can be a political party who makes that almost your entire platform ), but remember most rich people pay more in taxes in 1 month or a year than the average person will in their entire working life. And the government would shrivel up and die without the money it receives from them.

Especially since the majority of people take more from the system than they pay.

[mezzanine]

Jebus....

1) firstly, jimmy patterson cannot collect cpp even if he did pay into it, the company that paid him a salary is not arm's length. chances are even if he was paid a salary, his accountant opted out of paying cpp. even more likely, he was paid thru dividends, which is not CPP-taxable.

2) realize the condradiction you guys just walked into: a) i prefer smaller goverment and lower taxes. i'm even wary of that HST because of its impacts on me. b) let's give billionaires a goverment stipend of a few hundred $s a month - they don't need the money, but they deserve it, even though we have no way to objectify or quantify that. even though we bestowed other honours and acknowledgements, like his order of canada, or his order of BC. you guys like to spend money indiscrimately? i know of other political groups that agree with that sentiment....

3) money for billionaire's OAP will mean less OAP for other seniors, unless we raise taxes. someone tell me otherwise, please. and i double dare someone to say that is the public policy that we want to pursue.

x 10^10

[Yume-sama]

I hardly think giving our 47 billionaires a tax return of a few hundred a month would bankrupt the Country

I am a proponent of "fair tax" laws, and with that comes some positives, and some perceived negatives.

Even under a fair tax system the wealthy will still pay exponentially more.

Personally, I would find a VAT of 25% across the board more fair than a top-end income tax bracket of 50+%

Of course, Europe has 60+% income tax, and still charges a full VAT (25% in Denmark) on everything. Even houses. Sound familiar. Like why Gordo had to quit...

A fair tax closes all of the loopholes that both rich and less so rich exploit endlessly to stick it to the man. And don't deny it

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

..Of course, Europe has 60+% income tax, and still charges a full VAT (25% in Denmark) on everything. Even houses. Sound familiar. Like why Gordo had to quit...

Why else do you think so many people cycle? There are also outrageous taxes on cars.

[Yume-sama]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why else do you think so many people cycle? There are also outrageous taxes on cars.

And fuel. But I am not in to social engineering via crippling taxes.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Jebus....

1) firstly, jimmy patterson cannot collect cpp even if he did pay into it, the company that paid him a salary is not arm's length. chances are even if he was paid a salary, his accountant opted out of paying cpp. even more likely, he was paid thru dividends, which is not CPP-taxable.

....

3) money for billionaire's OAP will mean less OAP for other seniors, unless we raise taxes. someone tell me otherwise, please. and i double dare someone to say that is the public policy that we want to pursue.

x 10^10

first of all, it's called OAS - as in Old Age Security - and its "clawed back" for everybody making over aprox $67,000 as year. So jimmy boy does not receive OAS.

secondly, its EI that has the arms length rule, and that has changed as well

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by djmk

first of all, it's called OAS - as in Old Age Security - and its "clawed back" for everybody making over aprox $67,000 as year. So jimmy boy does not receive OAS.

secondly, its EI that has the arms length rule, and that has changed as well

my bad about confusing EI and CPP contributions and being arm's length, but i would still bet dollars to donuts that jimmy paid himself in dividends and did not draw a meaningful salary, which prevents him from drawing on CPP.

wrt jimmy not getting OAP, I was arguing that's a good thing.

[Phil McAvity]

Who's Jimmy Patterson anyway?

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

Who's Jimmy Patterson anyway?

He's some old guy who's still waiting for his OAP cheque.

[twoNeurons]

This thread needs to be closed.

Arguing about things like "FAST CATS for FAT CATS", "UNIONS ARE EVIL" and "SOCIALISM IS TEH SUCKS!" are serious wastes of time...

Any thinking reasonable person knows that the middle ground is where you wanna be. No matter what the current ruling party does, the opposition... surprise surprise... opposes it. Good policy or not. It's just how it is... and I'm surprised to see people here not realize that.

I will say one thing though.

There is a difference between a "prosperous province" and "prosperous people in the province"

It does seem that people focus on business and GDP far more than people who live and breathe here. I realize it's easier to quote numbers and statistics, but I'm just saying.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

My experience debating with socialists has taught me that they have very selective listening and thinking skills. In other words, their minds are usually closed to the possibility that socialism doesn't work because they have made up their minds that it does, so it doesn't matter how thorough, logical or persuasive my argument is, it rarely permeates the brain of the average left-winger. That's not being pompous, that's my experience.

That same statement could apply to Capitalist people as well. We all have selective hearing and it becomes more pronounced the older we get.

You've really never heard of scholarships?

Ok give me some credit.

Even still a kid from a rich family will have an advantage over a kid from a poor family. The rich kid will more than likely get the extra tutoring that is required to make sure they get the grades they need to get the scholarship. Also there is a chance that the poor kid once they are 15 will need to start working. Also the richer kids will end up at better schools verse the poorer kids.

I'm not saying it isn't possible for a poorer kid to succeed but their chances are lower than the richer kid.

Which goes back to yes cutting taxes are great. But if it hurts the health and education of society than was it really worth it.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Almost every scholarship I've seen has had atleast some form of need as a primary requirement. Entrance scholarhips notwithstanding.

[touraccuracy]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Nearly 35% of people in Scandinavia are employed by the state, compared to the low double digits in most other places, where people can flourish on their own.

I don't think a top-end 63% income tax + 14% duty + 25% VAT on purchases would fly here.

People lost their head over a HST

That'd probably be ideal, but yeah, people always vote against taxes and we have too much competition from within the country and right across the border that I don't think it could fly here. Too bad, but good on Scandinavia for making it work.

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

So yes, they may be living well (in their own mind), but almost none are living great.

Better than North America's current set up.

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

The idea of being like Europe is a lot less romantic when you study their history, and understand why we all fled over here to begin with

Anybody you know of European descent ended up here because their ancestors ran away from... *drum roll*... socialism and its side effects.

That is complete revisionist history.

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Next week in class we can tackle why so many Chinese people fled communism to make Vancouver their home

Despite Mao being the last three letters in LMAO not too many people were having a great time.

One Party State, Dictatorship, Communism, etc does not equal Socialism. Socialism is a necessary part of every day life and we all benefit from its ideals greatly (public water, public electricity, road maintenance, overseeing health and safety, healthcare, police, fire, etc etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

My experience debating with socialists has taught me that they have very selective listening and thinking skills. In other words, their minds are usually closed to the possibility that socialism doesn't work because they have made up their minds that it does, so it doesn't matter how thorough, logical or persuasive my argument is, it rarely permeates the brain of the average left-winger. That's not being pompous, that's my experience.



You've really never heard of scholarships?

Scholarships are not an effective education equalizer on a provincial scale, and its ridiculous for you to claim so, and it's even more ridiculous for you to claim it's the obvious and clear answer.


Yes, I support the BC Liberals and I think Gordo did a fairly good job, but the problem with our centrist party also being the furthest right party is that I get lumped together with people like this.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Anybody you know of European descent ended up here because their ancestors ran away from... *drum roll*... socialism and its side effects.

My grandfather was from one of the richest families in Hamburg and moved to the Queen Charlotte Islands in the 1920s to be a self-sufficient farmer/fisherman and get away from industrialized capitalism and all its drawbacks.

Then my own family moved to New Zealand to get away from the cancer known as Reaganomics in the 80s.

The only reason I'm back is because my grandmother had a stroke and needed someone to look after her.

[golog]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Then my own family moved to New Zealand to get away from the cancer known as Reaganomics in the 80s.

Bad timing to move to New Zealand for those reasons, eh?
(For those that don't know, New Zealand had a political shift in which they instituted radical deregulation and privatization beginning in 1984, superseding what was done in Thatcher's or Reagan's tenures)