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  #181  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 2:19 PM
Sun Belt Sun Belt is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Except no one blamed high housing values and homeless on Trump. And CA has had high housing prices and homeless for the last 40 years, at least. CA has probably always had more "street people" given the climate.
You're being disingenuous. The homeless epidemic has not been around for 40 years.

Yes, there have always been bums in society, but let's get real here.
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  #182  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 2:48 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
You're being disingenuous. The homeless epidemic has not been around for 40 years.
Of course it has. I remember Market Street/Tenderloin decades ago. It was 100x worse than now, with homeless encampments everywhere, dudes bathing in the fountains. Market Street was a toilet. As a small child, my eyes were bugging out at the sordid scene.

But back then we didn't have maniacs in the WH lying about everything to their Jonestown cult.
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  #183  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 3:30 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Disagreed--how is that true?
The issues in California have nothing to do with Trump, you seriously think the SALT deduction changes that went into effect a year ago are causing the issue?

California has had domestic out migration for 7 years running. Presidents are not nearly as important as you seem to think. Whatever issues you think California may or may not have they have absolutely nothing to do with current policy changes which have had almost no time to even go into effect, and they have almost nothing to do with National political policy in general.

Almost all of the real impact on your life is from local politicians and politics, not federal unless its war. I cant imagine how much of a blessing it is for incompetent state governments to know the average dreg blames their failures on DC. What a godsend for them.

Additionally: why should you be allowed to offset expensive state tax on federal taxes? That just allows high tax states to hide the true burden of their cost in the federal budget. It should be removed as a deduction entirely.

Thats another argument however

Whataboutism argument: RED STATES GET MORE FEDERAL AID

***Despite that being disingenuous because rural western states have more federally owned property in than costal states via BLM and massive subsidies due to the outdated and horrible Farm Subsidy system as well as Native American Communities, not to mention that southern states have lots of poor so they get more federal aid due to welfare support (You dont hate the poor do you????)***

Id agree that most federal support should be ended and in these areas, Id also like to see the millions of square miles of land the federal government arbitrarily holds in the west turned back over to the states and citizens of the west. and I would like to see a total reformation of the welfare system that is rife with abuse.
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  #184  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 7:37 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
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Welfare programs aren’t rife with abuse. Qualifying for programs entails completing paperwork and interviews with multiple bureaucracies. The identified cases of abuse, fraud, or waste are minimal.
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  #185  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 7:57 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
Welfare programs aren’t rife with abuse. Qualifying for programs entails completing paperwork and interviews with multiple bureaucracies. The identified cases of abuse, fraud, or waste are minimal.
Abuse and fraud does not mean just on behalf of recipients my dude.
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  #186  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:07 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
This is the reality in California. There are currently 6 million seniors in the state. By 2030 there will be 9 million. Over 20% of the population will be over 66 years of age -- more than Florida -- yet not nearly as affordable as low cost, low tax Florida.
Isn't it great news then, that a lot of those old people will be leaving California for cheaper retirement destinations?
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  #187  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:21 PM
craigs craigs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
These realities are not a good thing in the long term:

1] Net negative domestic growth
2] Slowing international growth
3] Natural increase in decline
Please explain how these are 'not good things.'

As they work slow California's population growth while we struggle to solve problems exacerbated by population growth, like spiraling housing costs, I think these are good things. I think adding more people faster would make our problems worse.

But let's see your argument for why California would be better off with hundreds of thousands of additional residents than we already have right now, or why we would be better off in the future if we grew even faster than we would without net domestic out-migration.

Quote:
4] An aging population
That isn't a problem caused by state policy. It's a demographic issue playing out across the entire Western world, and I'm not sure what can be done about it. But I'm sure you've got a GOP partisan talking point on hand for this, right? So knock yourself out--please feel free to use this thread to decisively solve the problems of aging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
The issues in California have nothing to do with Trump, you seriously think the SALT deduction changes that went into effect a year ago are causing the issue?

California has had domestic out migration for 7 years running. Presidents are not nearly as important as you seem to think. Whatever issues you think California may or may not have they have absolutely nothing to do with current policy changes which have had almost no time to even go into effect, and they have almost nothing to do with National political policy in general.

Almost all of the real impact on your life is from local politicians and politics, not federal unless its war. I cant imagine how much of a blessing it is for incompetent state governments to know the average dreg blames their failures on DC. What a godsend for them.

Additionally: why should you be allowed to offset expensive state tax on federal taxes? That just allows high tax states to hide the true burden of their cost in the federal budget. It should be removed as a deduction entirely.

Thats another argument however

Whataboutism argument: RED STATES GET MORE FEDERAL AID

***Despite that being disingenuous because rural western states have more federally owned property in than costal states via BLM and massive subsidies due to the outdated and horrible Farm Subsidy system as well as Native American Communities, not to mention that southern states have lots of poor so they get more federal aid due to welfare support (You dont hate the poor do you????)***

Id agree that most federal support should be ended and in these areas, Id also like to see the millions of square miles of land the federal government arbitrarily holds in the west turned back over to the states and citizens of the west. and I would like to see a total reformation of the welfare system that is rife with abuse.
Obadno, I will ask you again: why did you assert "Domestic out-migration is not a good sign for Californians future"?

Please explain how would we be better off, and be better able to solve growth-related problems like spiraling housing costs, if we kept adding more people faster and faster, while nobody moves out?
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  #188  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 10:11 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Isn't it great news then, that a lot of those old people will be leaving California for cheaper retirement destinations?

I'm sure in their minds, these older people will move to Texas and Florida, and spark a massive boom in those economies. What kind of boom? Who the hell knows. Senior Citizen Housing?
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  #189  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 10:13 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Please explain how these are 'not good things.'

As they work slow California's population growth while we struggle to solve problems exacerbated by population growth, like spiraling housing costs, I think these are good things. I think adding more people faster would make our problems worse.

But let's see your argument for why California would be better off with hundreds of thousands of additional residents than we already have right now, or why we would be better off in the future if we grew even faster than we would without net domestic out-migration.


That isn't a problem caused by state policy. It's a demographic issue playing out across the entire Western world, and I'm not sure what can be done about it. But I'm sure you've got a GOP partisan talking point on hand for this, right? So knock yourself out--please feel free to use this thread to decisively solve the problems of aging.


Obadno, I will ask you again: why did you assert "Domestic out-migration is not a good sign for Californians future"?

Please explain how would we be better off, and be better able to solve growth-related problems like spiraling housing costs, if we kept adding more people faster and faster, while nobody moves out?
What's even more hilarous is THEY THINK people in Dallas and Houston won't care about adding millions of people and love the traffic (who knows why) because THEY DESPERATELY WANT TO BELIEVE IT. Get out of here with that nonsense. One or two hardly used light rail lines won't change this.

We'll see what really happens though. My money is on they will get fed up like anywhere else as their commutes become even more hellish.

There was some DC poster on another site who threw out the idea of Baltimore-DC growing to 20 million people. If you asked people in real life if they would want that,
you'd be laughed at there. The traffic is already miserable.

Last edited by LA21st; Nov 13, 2019 at 10:27 PM.
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  #190  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by toddguy View Post
Dallas/Fort Worth. already over 7 million, can sprawl in every direction, high enough to not have to worry about rising sea levels, too far inland to get the worst effects of hurricanes.
Dallas seems to have everything going for it.
Except for the Cowboys...
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  #191  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 11:08 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Disagreed--how is that true? Given the state's current problems, I'd say domestic out-migration is more likely a good thing than a bad thing right now.

California sent 691,000 people to other states in 2018 and received 501,000 people from other states in 2018, for a net domestic out-migration amounting to less than 0.5% of the state's total population. Yet California continues to grow via natural increase and international immigration, adding 6.2%, or roughly 2,303,089 people, to its total population between 2010 and 2018.

What if we didn't experience net domestic out-migration during that time frame? The population would have grown roughly a half a percent faster in 2018 alone, and cumulatively over this decade, we'd have hundreds of thousands more Californians than we do right now.

How would it be an improvement to add hundreds of thousands more Californians to the current population, clogging up the roads and increasing pollution, competing with the rest of us (and with all the kids growing up, and with foreign immigrants) for housing, employment, educational resources, mental health and homeless services, etc.? It wouldn't be.

No, that even more crowded and competitive scenario would be worse than the one we face today, not better. So why the hand-wringing and phony assertions to the contrary? Why the assertion that whatever is happening in California is necessarily bad and negative and destructive? Hmm....


That's the correct answer!

The orchestrated campaign to deride, denounce, and derail California for its political sins by the Trump regime, its partisans and culture warriors, and their propaganda outlet Fox is the reason we're getting all this phony 'concern trolling' over Californians' well-being right now. Oh, they have not one iota of actual concern for us--but they've got the trolling down pat. And it is that Trumpian crusade against California that creates the larger context in which this forum's anti-California threads are understood by locals.
This forum has always had an antinimby streak that totally predates Trump, no?

I love California, you certainly can't accuse me of being "anti" anything. But the homeless crisis is not fabricated. Surely we're on the same page...?
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  #192  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 11:12 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
People are correctly pointing out that Dotard frequently cites California as a "disaster" when it's plausibly the most successful geography on the planet. At the very least, it's unquestionably the most innovative place on the planet.
In all fairness, I distinctly recall your "Dotard" being quoted (on CBC) saying California's Silicon Valley is America's top crown jewel. (As part of an explanation on why he won't let the Chinese steal U.S. technology and undercut us, etc.) This was probably some 1-2 years ago, IIRC.

(If you want to challenge me on this, I bet I can find the exact quote for you, then you'll have to admit it.)
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  #193  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 11:12 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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Originally Posted by LA21st View Post
What's even more hilarous is THEY THINK people in Dallas and Houston won't care about adding millions of people and love the traffic (who knows why) because THEY DESPERATELY WANT TO BELIEVE IT. Get out of here with that nonsense. One or two hardly used light rail lines won't change this.

We'll see what really happens though. My money is on they will get fed up like anywhere else as their commutes become even more hellish.
Texas Cities and Counties Scramble to Increase Property Taxes Before New Law Takes Effect

It's already starting to happen. A lot of Texas homeowners got sticker shock on their property taxes this year, especially in the Dallas area which is already relatively high cost for the state. At least they passed a law similar to prop 13 which should help homeowners down the line, but maybe it'll create some of the same problems and market imbalances that prop 13 did in California?

We'll see if Texas manages growth better than California did. Maybe in 30 years Texas will have 50 million people and Fox News will be running apocalyptic news stories about how too many people and liberal policies have ruined Texas
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  #194  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 11:15 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
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That's honestly my guess. I don't see any evidence why Texas would be different. I just see emotional Texas pride.

Manages their growth better? Their sprawl is totally out of control and their more auto dependent than California is. They have a giant suburb with no bus routes ffs. Can you imagine Long Beach or Santa Ana with no transit options?
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  #195  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Texas Cities and Counties Scramble to Increase Property Taxes Before New Law Takes Effect

It's already starting to happen. A lot of Texas homeowners got sticker shock on their property taxes this year, especially in the Dallas area which is already relatively high cost for the state. At least they passed a law similar to prop 13 which should help homeowners down the line, but maybe it'll create some of the same problems and market imbalances that prop 13 did in California?

We'll see if Texas manages growth better than California did. Maybe in 30 years Texas will have 50 million people and Fox News will be running apocalyptic news stories about how too many people and liberal policies have ruined Texas

Not just Dallas but Houston and especially Austin. Our property taxes are atrocious. They've been trickling in the mail this past week and they'll be higher this year. I also own land in CA, not a lot but dig the low tax rate.
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  #196  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 11:43 PM
DCReid DCReid is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Except for the Cowboys...
Also DFW is in a major tornado zone, and those will get worse with climate change as well. And as someone said, property taxes in Texas are quite high.
That said, it will probably keep growing fast and sprawling into Oklahoma.

Weren't California's property taxes were capped years ago (Prop 21?) and has there been any study as to whether the cap has contributed to California problems with high housing costs and his general taxes?
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  #197  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 12:25 AM
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LosAngelesSportsFan LosAngelesSportsFan is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Not just Dallas but Houston and especially Austin. Our property taxes are atrocious. They've been trickling in the mail this past week and they'll be higher this year. I also own land in CA, not a lot but dig the low tax rate.
But i thought Texas was a low tax state??? lol i always laugh at people that say this because they look at one tax and extrapolate. Money needs to come from somewhere for basic services. Not gonna argue that California doesn't have a lot of fat that it can trim, but its never an apples to apples comparison
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  #198  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 12:34 AM
LA21st LA21st is offline
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I've never understood that either. How did people think their services were getting funded?
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  #199  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 4:48 AM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Of course it has. I remember Market Street/Tenderloin decades ago. It was 100x worse than now, with homeless encampments everywhere, dudes bathing in the fountains. Market Street was a toilet. As a small child, my eyes were bugging out at the sordid scene.

But back then we didn't have maniacs in the WH lying about everything to their Jonestown cult.
The Tenderloin is literally all of this still, and more. Imagine this, needles everywhere, people OD'ing in cars, and feces. I'm pretty sure it's at it's lowest point ever. Just saying. Definitely saw a dead guy on Market towards Embarcardero with a needle jammed in his arm this May.

Not just on the streets either. I had to use the restroom in the Westfield Mall and found someone slumped over, face down towards the urinal, arm tied off and all. Had to get the security guard. It's really, really rough around there nowadays.
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  #200  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 3:00 PM
Sun Belt Sun Belt is offline
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
The Tenderloin is literally all of this still, and more. Imagine this, needles everywhere, people OD'ing in cars, and feces. I'm pretty sure it's at it's lowest point ever. Just saying. Definitely saw a dead guy on Market towards Embarcardero with a needle jammed in his arm this May.

Not just on the streets either. I had to use the restroom in the Westfield Mall and found someone slumped over, face down towards the urinal, arm tied off and all. Had to get the security guard. It's really, really rough around there nowadays.
Crawford's anecdotal experience from 1979, [remember he was the one that said "40 years ago" then moved the goal posts to "a couple decades ago" -- was he even alive back then?] is painting a false picture of the homeless epidemic we are currently in.

It's an easy dismissal of facts, without providing any factual data at all.
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