Post Panamax ships to call to Halifax

[Ziobrop]

Speaking of CN, They mentioned a new shipper today. this is likely the one suggested but not announced by the port.

UASC will be here weekly starting in October.

http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2...s-halifax.html

Also, Because of CN: Local Train Porn

[Nouvellecosse]

Does anyone know what the maximum number of trains per day the mainline between Hfx and Moncton can handle? And how many are typically run?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

Speaking of CN, They mentioned a new shipper today. this is likely the one suggested but not announced by the port.

UASC will be here weekly starting in October.

http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2...s-halifax.html

Also, Because of CN: Local Train Porn

From your Halifax Shipping News - "UASC has six 18,800-TEU ships on order".


Out of curiosity, can Halterm handle ships this large? I assume that they wouldn't fit under the bridges to get to the Fairview terminal. Here is the Vessel Fleet for UASC - http://www.uasc.net/en/vessel-fleet

Although these massive ships likely aren't coming to Halifax in the near future, I found the following image that shows the size: (source: https://twitter.com/NL_RTM )


This image show the progression of the containerships: (source: http://www.porttechnology.org/news/c...s_then_and_now )



I think I found my answer. The Port of Halifax website - http://secure.portdays.com/english/p...ainer-terminal - gives the following Berth specifications for the
Fairview Cove Terminal:
NORTH
LENGTH 330 m/1,083 ft
DEPTH (MIN) 16.8 m/55 ft
SOUTH
LENGTH 330 m/1,083 ft
DEPTH (MIN) 16.8 m/55 ft


Berth specifications for the Halterm:
BERTH 41
LENGTH 333 m/1,093 ft
DEPTH (MIN) 16.2 m/53 ft
BERTH 42
LENGTH 333 m/1,093 ft
DEPTH (MIN) 16.2 m/53 ft

I wonder if Berth 41 and Berth 42 at Halterm can be combined to take ships longer than 333 meters

[fenwick16]

I just want to post this story from the CBC. The part about these ships being too large to so down the St. Lawrence seaway is what caught my attention.

(source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ness-1.3178929 )

Port of Halifax hopes post-Panamax ships bring big business
Port of Halifax has seen its volume of containerized cargo drop by about 10 per cent last year
By Jennifer Henderson, CBC News Posted: Aug 04, 2015 4:35 PM AT Last Updated: Aug 04, 2015 5:16 PM AT


The CMA-CGM Vivaldi stopped at the Halterm terminal carrying 8478 TEUs (total equivalent units) the largest container ship to call on the port. (CBC)

The arrival of bigger, post-Panamax container ships which started Monday is good news for the struggling port of Halifax.

The CMA-CGM Vivaldi stopped at the Halterm terminal carrying 8478 TEUs (total equivalent units) the largest container ship to call on the port.

An even bigger ship, known as a super post-Panamax ship built for 9200 TEU is scheduled to arrive in Halifax next month.

Both of these larger vessels are owned by CMA-CGM of France, the third largest container shipping company in the world with 445 ships.

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.
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On Friday, an even bigger post-Panamax ship called the Budapest Express with 8700 TEUs will arrive at the Ceres terminal at Fairview Cove.

It represents the resumption of a stop cancelled two years ago. Both ships arriving at the two terminals this week are too big for the rival port of Montreal.

"Shipping lines are increasing the size of their vessels to take advantage of economies of scale. The larger the ship the lower the unit cost of operation is," Dinning said.

"Large ships like this can't go down the St. Lawrence into Montreal. They have problems with draft in the summer (too much ship in too little water) and with ice in the winter."

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

From your Halifax Shipping News - "UASC has six 18,800-TEU ships on order".
\I wonder if Berth 41 and Berth 42 at Halterm can be combined to take ships longer than 333 meters

41 & 42 are really just one long wharf of 660 m and the port has designated them 41 & 42 to demonstrate that 2 large ships can be berthed at the same time. In the late 70s and for years after Hapag-LLoyd and Dart used the same wharf on the same day, usually a Monday.
Take a look at the container terminals in Rotterdam and count the cranes. At any one time there are over 1,000 vessels in or anchored at Rotterdam; 1,174 at the moment (including the inland vessels ) The main container terminal is at the entrance to the harbour and on reclaimed land. They have expanded further and further into the North Sea over the past 50 years. Zoom in and see the new expansion and reclamation.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...y:52.0/zoom:12

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Colin May

41 & 42 are really just one long wharf of 660 m and the port has designated them 41 & 42 to demonstrate that 2 large ships can be berthed at the same time. In the late 70s and for years after Hapag-LLoyd and Dart used the same wharf on the same day, usually a Monday.
Take a look at the container terminals in Rotterdam and count the cranes. At any one time there are over 1,000 vessels in or anchored at Rotterdam; 1,174 at the moment (including the inland vessels ) The main container terminal is at the entrance to the harbour and on reclaimed land. They have expanded further and further into the North Sea over the past 50 years. Zoom in and see the new expansion and reclamation.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...y:52.0/zoom:12

Thank you for the information Colin May. The marine traffic into Rotterdam is truly amazing.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Does anyone know what the maximum number of trains per day the mainline between Hfx and Moncton can handle? And how many are typically run?

there is 1 inbound and 1 outbound container train daily to Halifax.
there is another train that handles the Dartmouth auto racks, general freight in and out, and another that runs gypsum into National Gypsum.
plus the 3 times weekly via run.

[David1gray]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

there is 1 inbound and 1 outbound container train daily to Halifax.
there is another train that handles the Dartmouth auto racks, general freight in and out, and another that runs gypsum into National Gypsum.
plus the 3 times weekly via run.

Container trains are trains 120 (inbound) and 121 (outbound) both originate/terminate in Toronto, and both run daily. There used to be a second set of intermodal trains 148 (inbound), and 149( outbound), but they only operate as far as Montreal now from Chicago.

Freights in/out of Dartmouth are 407 and 408, both originate/terminate in Moncton.

The gypsum trains generally run Mon-Fri but do run occasionally on the weekend. This train is numbered 511 in both directions.

And of course as mentioned above, the VIA trains.

[Nouvellecosse]

Hmm very interesting.

[curnhalio]

So there are only a few trains per day in each direction along the stretch that parallels Hwy 102. Since most of that is single track now, is that all it can handle?

Will these new, larger ships that can't use the St. Lawrence add enough capacity to warrant more trains, or will they just add more cars to existing trains?

I bet the port in Montreal isn't too happy about the drafting issues in the seaway. Whose job is it to ensure that the seaway is upgraded to handle those ships? Is it even feasible on a cost/benefit basis?

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm pretty sure that there could be more trains than that given the number of sidings along the route. There's one in Truro, one in Amherst, one in Folly Lake, one near Beaverbank, one in Springhill Jct. etc. and considering that it only takes the train about 4 hours to go from Hfx to Moncton that means there are passing points at least once per hour. Theoretically that means upwards of 24 trains per day per direction. I suspect the bigger constraint would be on the ends at the train yards and port facilities rather than on the line itself.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

So there are only a few trains per day in each direction along the stretch that parallels Hwy 102. Since most of that is single track now, is that all it can handle?

Will these new, larger ships that can't use the St. Lawrence add enough capacity to warrant more trains, or will they just add more cars to existing trains?

I bet the port in Montreal isn't too happy about the drafting issues in the seaway. Whose job is it to ensure that the seaway is upgraded to handle those ships? Is it even feasible on a cost/benefit basis?

The Seaway starts where the Port of Montreal ends; it won't be 'upgraded'.

The larger container ships won't be going to Montreal because they are too big, too deep and Montreal is too far off the route. And winter ice in the Gulf of St Lawrence is a real pain for ships on a tight schedule.
Mid size crude oil tankers, 1 million barrels, go as far as the Valero refinery opposite Quebec City and can go no further. They go to the refinery at high tide through a narrow channel.
In the long term Halifax will have the advantage because of the natural limitations of the route to Montreal.

[David1gray]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

So there are only a few trains per day in each direction along the stretch that parallels Hwy 102. Since most of that is single track now, is that all it can handle?

Will these new, larger ships that can't use the St. Lawrence add enough capacity to warrant more trains, or will they just add more cars to existing trains?

I bet the port in Montreal isn't too happy about the drafting issues in the seaway. Whose job is it to ensure that the seaway is upgraded to handle those ships? Is it even feasible on a cost/benefit basis?

There is room for more trains for sure. Most of trains run over night/in the morning. So leaves room to have trains run at different times of the day.

If they run them at the same time and require meets, the longest siding between Halifax and Moncton is Belmont Siding just outside Truro at 11,000 feet, but there are others at Kinsac, Sandy Cove, Alton, Folly Lake, Amherst, and Evans.

[curnhalio]

Thanks for all the info. This is exciting to hear that Halifax has a natural advantage and our deep port is able to handle ever expanding ships, that other competing ports are unable to handle. I've seen some pretty long trains but I don't think any of them are longer than the shortest siding between here and Moncton.

[David1gray]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

Thanks for all the info. This is exciting to hear that Halifax has a natural advantage and our deep port is able to handle ever expanding ships, that other competing ports are unable to handle. I've seen some pretty long trains but I don't think any of them are longer than the shortest siding between here and Moncton.

You'd be surprised. The shortest siding is less than 5900 feet, and CN is known to run trains 120, and 121 at over 10,000 feet.

This one was 9305 feet, and that isn't even the longest one I have seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mZuG4hyxM8

[Nouvellecosse]

^^ I've seen some pretty long ones but that is definitely among the longest.

It's fairly common for super long ones to pass at the siding in Amherst but I've only seen it in the middle of the night. The siding basically stretches the entire length of the town so I don't think there are many that wouldn't fit.

[David1gray]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^^ I've seen some pretty long ones but that is definitely among the longest.

It's fairly common for super long ones to pass at the siding in Amherst but I've only seen it in the middle of the night. The siding basically stretches the entire length of the town so I don't think there are many that wouldn't fit.

I pulled out the Employee Time Table I have (it is the current one so should be fairly accurate) and took a look at siding lengths.

Sidings between Halifax and Moncton, east to west:

Siding Name | Length in feet

Kinsac | 3920
Sandy Cove | 3800
Alton | 6300
Belmont | 15340
Folly Lake | 7160
Oxford Junction | 6360
Springhill Junction | 11350
Amherst | 8785
Evans | 8810
Painsec Jct | 9240

So looking at that, I had forgotten how long the Springhill Jct siding was. So Belmont and Springhill Jct can handle some longer trains.

Sorry for the bit of misinformation before, but these are the actual numbers.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

Fairview Cove Just took a Larger Ship.
Budapest Express is 271 teu larger.

http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2...-budapest.html

There was a story in the allnovascotia.com indicating that the clearance under the bridges caused delays for this ship and when it returns from the US coast for the cross-Atlantic return trip it will use Halterm.

This is disappointing news for the Fairview terminal, however the Halterm terminal can handle these big ships without any problems.

As ships becoming larger over the coming years I wonder if the Ceres Fairview terminal will become obsolete? If so, I wonder if there is room on the Dartmouth side for another container terminal if needed?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There was a story in the allnovascotia.com indicating that the clearance under the bridges caused delays for this ship and when it returns from the US coast for the cross-Atlantic return trip it will use Halterm.

This is disappointing news for the Fairview terminal, however the Halterm terminal can handle these big ships without any problems.

As ships becoming larger over the coming years I wonder if the Ceres Fairview terminal will become obsolete? If so, I wonder if there is room on the Dartmouth side for another container terminal if needed?

Make the Halterm wharf longer and fill in most/all Black Rock beach. No room on the Dartmouth side.
Looked at the explosion in China and I believe it was at an auto plant. I used this article : http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-...-to-the-damage and this link : https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...y:39.0/zoom:12
The explosion was to the left of the two large white areas.......not many ships in that part of the port. Tianjin is an important port for all raw and finished products and close to Shanghai. In the Guardian article you will see a photos of a Wallenius car carrier similar to those which use Autoport.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There was a story in the allnovascotia.com indicating that the clearance under the bridges caused delays for this ship and when it returns from the US coast for the cross-Atlantic return trip it will use Halterm.

This is disappointing news for the Fairview terminal, however the Halterm terminal can handle these big ships without any problems.

As ships becoming larger over the coming years I wonder if the Ceres Fairview terminal will become obsolete? If so, I wonder if there is room on the Dartmouth side for another container terminal if needed?

I don't know how true that is.. When it departed there was 2m clearance under the bridges.. It's tight but 2m is pretty normal for Halifax. They might not clear at high tide.. But that's it