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  #561  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 4:29 PM
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Without knowing much about her allegations against other MP's I am inclined to believe her that this is a smear campaign. It sounds like there was a relationship whether he considered it one or not. I'm sorry but miscommunication about a relationship status does not equal sexual abuse. This sounds like every cliche about a woman thinking she's in a relationship while the guy is just looking for casual sex. Even if he felt pressured I fail to see how she overpowered him or used her position to silence or threaten him.
From the Neil Macdonald Opinion piece.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/jagme...-one-1.4652795

At the time, 2,400 kilometres away in Brandon, Man., a different sort of survivor altogether was watching, with some disbelief, the political uproar Moore had set in motion.

Glen Kirkland was a combat soldier in Afghanistan with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry when a Taliban ambush in 2008 killed three of his comrades and very nearly killed him. He was maimed, his pancreas smashed, his vision and hearing impaired and his mind badly injured. (To this day, shrapnel he took in the rocket attack works its way to his skin's surface.)

He began a daily regime of drugs, including antidepressants, powerful opioid painkillers, insulin and antibiotics, and was still taking them in early June 2013, when the House of Commons standing committee on defence summoned him, against the wishes of the military, to testify about his treatment by the military following his injuries.

Wearing medals pinned to his chest, he told MPs his father, also a veteran, had assured him he'd done his duty and that Canada would take care of him: "My dad was wrong. I am broken and can't be a productive and useful soldier."

By the time he finished testifying, he told me recently, he was weeping: "It was an emotional speech about all my friends dying around me and me trying to crawl out of fire, and how disappointed I am, and I am teary-eyed and talking about my father, and I'm still standing there long after this emotional thing is done."

As the committee dispersed, committee member Christine Moore handed him her card, asking him to come to her office for further discussions. A few hours later, he did, not knowing quite what to expect: "You have to realize what an elected MP is to a grunt soldier," he said.

I understood immediately what he meant, having once been an infantry private myself. In the strict, authoritarian hierarchy of the military, where someone just a few ranks up requires abject obedience, a member of Parliament on a powerful committee in Ottawa might as well live in another world.

Kirkland says when he arrived at Moore's office, she offered him gin, and persisted even after he told her he was taking antidepressants and painkillers, and was not supposed to be drinking. "She's a nurse," he says, "and I thought I suppose if she's a nurse and says it's OK, it is."

There were a few more drinks, and it became clear Moore's intentions went beyond a professional interest in his case.

That night, he says, she "followed" him back to his hotel, where he says she spent the night.

"Look, I'm not crying rape," says Kirkland, who is now a Realtor in Brandon. "I don't like to think of myself as a survivor. I prefer 'thriver.' But what she did was inappropriate. Was I a willing participant? I guess it depends on your definition of willing. There was a power imbalance. There was a level of authority there."

Explicit messages followed, Kirkland says

But the night at the Lord Elgin Hotel in Ottawa wasn't the end of it. Kirkland says Moore began sending him explicit messages. A few weeks after his testimony, in July 2013, he says, Moore messaged him that she'd arranged a trip to meet him where he was playing golf with friends in Kenosee, Sask.

During that visit, he says, he told her, "This is not a thing. This is not happening."

When she turned up unannounced at his residence in Brandon a few weeks later, he said, he had to be "curt" — to go far beyond "non-verbal cues," as Singh would put it. After that, he says, communication ceased.

It should be said here that Kirkland did not come to me with his story. I called him, after hearing persistent rumours about the story around Ottawa. He had told friends about Moore's advances as they progressed, and there are reporters and political types from other parties who know the story, and a reference to it even surfaced in Frank magazine, the satirical rag that traffics in Ottawa gossip. Kirkland says Frank magazine actually contacted him a few years ago.

But, he says, no one else has been in touch.

I sent a list of questions to Moore, asking whether her behaviour with Kirkland meets the strict standard set by Singh when he expelled Weir from caucus. She replied that she would prefer to wait a couple of days to discuss the matter. About the same time, in an email sent by an aide, Singh said: "These are troubling allegations that I take very seriously and will have more to say shortly."

An NDP staffer said Singh plans to make a public statement about Kirkland's assertions Tuesday morning.

In any case, Glen Kirkland is about to have his #MeToo moment, whether he wants it or not. As Singh himself said on CBC's Power & Politics in January: "You have to believe survivors .... I believe survivors."


Neil Macdonald

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  #562  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 4:47 PM
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While I can see the irony in her words about her personal life being dragged into the spotlight and her reputation being damaged, I also believe there are those who simply want to smear accusers to discredit the entire MeToo movement. I don't think this invalidates all cases as you seem to be implying.

On a similar note I wonder what happened to that California Congresswoman who had accusations against her? That case seemed to have more weight to it.
I am not sure what the lasting impact, if any, of #MeToo will be. But I think it's a good thing that it happened. There are far more positives than negatives.

This case involving Moore and Kirkland IMO is more of a caution for the knee-jerk automatic "we believe all victims" reaction to any allegation. Which I am aware is well-intentioned and meant to embolden victims who would have otherwise suffered alone and in silence.
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  #563  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 7:52 PM
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I am not sure what the lasting impact, if any, of #MeToo will be. But I think it's a good thing that it happened. There are far more positives than negatives.

This case involving Moore and Kirkland IMO is more of a caution for the knee-jerk automatic "we believe all victims" reaction to any allegation. Which I am aware is well-intentioned and meant to embolden victims who would have otherwise suffered alone and in silence.
I totally agree.
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  #564  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 7:56 PM
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From the Neil Macdonald Opinion piece.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/jagme...-one-1.4652795

At the time, 2,400 kilometres away in Brandon, Man., a different sort of survivor altogether was watching, with some disbelief, the political uproar Moore had set in motion.

Glen Kirkland was a combat soldier in Afghanistan with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry when a Taliban ambush in 2008 killed three of his comrades and very nearly killed him. He was maimed, his pancreas smashed, his vision and hearing impaired and his mind badly injured. (To this day, shrapnel he took in the rocket attack works its way to his skin's surface.)

He began a daily regime of drugs, including antidepressants, powerful opioid painkillers, insulin and antibiotics, and was still taking them in early June 2013, when the House of Commons standing committee on defence summoned him, against the wishes of the military, to testify about his treatment by the military following his injuries.

Wearing medals pinned to his chest, he told MPs his father, also a veteran, had assured him he'd done his duty and that Canada would take care of him: "My dad was wrong. I am broken and can't be a productive and useful soldier."

By the time he finished testifying, he told me recently, he was weeping: "It was an emotional speech about all my friends dying around me and me trying to crawl out of fire, and how disappointed I am, and I am teary-eyed and talking about my father, and I'm still standing there long after this emotional thing is done."

As the committee dispersed, committee member Christine Moore handed him her card, asking him to come to her office for further discussions. A few hours later, he did, not knowing quite what to expect: "You have to realize what an elected MP is to a grunt soldier," he said.

I understood immediately what he meant, having once been an infantry private myself. In the strict, authoritarian hierarchy of the military, where someone just a few ranks up requires abject obedience, a member of Parliament on a powerful committee in Ottawa might as well live in another world.

Kirkland says when he arrived at Moore's office, she offered him gin, and persisted even after he told her he was taking antidepressants and painkillers, and was not supposed to be drinking. "She's a nurse," he says, "and I thought I suppose if she's a nurse and says it's OK, it is."

There were a few more drinks, and it became clear Moore's intentions went beyond a professional interest in his case.

That night, he says, she "followed" him back to his hotel, where he says she spent the night.

"Look, I'm not crying rape," says Kirkland, who is now a Realtor in Brandon. "I don't like to think of myself as a survivor. I prefer 'thriver.' But what she did was inappropriate. Was I a willing participant? I guess it depends on your definition of willing. There was a power imbalance. There was a level of authority there."

Explicit messages followed, Kirkland says

But the night at the Lord Elgin Hotel in Ottawa wasn't the end of it. Kirkland says Moore began sending him explicit messages. A few weeks after his testimony, in July 2013, he says, Moore messaged him that she'd arranged a trip to meet him where he was playing golf with friends in Kenosee, Sask.

During that visit, he says, he told her, "This is not a thing. This is not happening."

When she turned up unannounced at his residence in Brandon a few weeks later, he said, he had to be "curt" — to go far beyond "non-verbal cues," as Singh would put it. After that, he says, communication ceased.

It should be said here that Kirkland did not come to me with his story. I called him, after hearing persistent rumours about the story around Ottawa. He had told friends about Moore's advances as they progressed, and there are reporters and political types from other parties who know the story, and a reference to it even surfaced in Frank magazine, the satirical rag that traffics in Ottawa gossip. Kirkland says Frank magazine actually contacted him a few years ago.

But, he says, no one else has been in touch.

I sent a list of questions to Moore, asking whether her behaviour with Kirkland meets the strict standard set by Singh when he expelled Weir from caucus. She replied that she would prefer to wait a couple of days to discuss the matter. About the same time, in an email sent by an aide, Singh said: "These are troubling allegations that I take very seriously and will have more to say shortly."

An NDP staffer said Singh plans to make a public statement about Kirkland's assertions Tuesday morning.

In any case, Glen Kirkland is about to have his #MeToo moment, whether he wants it or not. As Singh himself said on CBC's Power & Politics in January: "You have to believe survivors .... I believe survivors."


Neil Macdonald

Opinion Columnist
That does shed a little more light on it. If the roles were reversed and the MP was a man then there would absolutely be different assumptions being made. I'm not 100% sold on this story though as he says that the sex was consensual. It sounds to me more like she completely missed all the cues of him not wanting a relationship. Her behaviour was aggressive but not criminal. The same could potentially be said for some men accused of similar things.
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  #565  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 8:24 PM
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  #566  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 8:54 PM
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That does shed a little more light on it. If the roles were reversed and the MP was a man then there would absolutely be different assumptions being made. I'm not 100% sold on this story though as he says that the sex was consensual. It sounds to me more like she completely missed all the cues of him not wanting a relationship. Her behaviour was aggressive but not criminal. The same could potentially be said for some men accused of similar things.
I don't think he is contending that her behaviour was criminal and this all would have died away eventually. I think that her accusations reawakened their interaction and caused Neil Macdonald to contact him. Kirkland is just pointing out a whiff of hypocrisy in her actions.
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  #567  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 9:10 PM
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I don't think he is contending that her behaviour was criminal and this all would have died away eventually. I think that her accusations reawakened their interaction and caused Neil Macdonald to contact him. Kirkland is just pointing out a whiff of hypocrisy in her actions.
If I remember correctly in an earlier interview with the CBC he said that he simply felt compelled to give his version of events because of what was being reported in the media. He wasn't the one who originally went to the media, nor does he seem to have any criminal accusations.

It's understandable. At first it seems confusing because the media tend to cover this from a simplified "culture wars" angle (should we "believe survivors" or not, how does this story affect that view, etc.). But it doesn't sound like this guy wants to fight the culture wars, it sounds like he just wants people to know the truth about stories involving him that were leaked to the public.
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  #568  
Old Posted May 15, 2018, 9:40 PM
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I don't think he is contending that her behaviour was criminal and this all would have died away eventually. I think that her accusations reawakened their interaction and caused Neil Macdonald to contact him. Kirkland is just pointing out a whiff of hypocrisy in her actions.
What I meant by accusations is her contention of inappropriate behaviour by Erin Weir and the 2 liberal MP's
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  #569  
Old Posted May 16, 2018, 3:35 PM
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I don't think he is contending that her behaviour was criminal and this all would have died away eventually. I think that her accusations reawakened their interaction and caused Neil Macdonald to contact him. Kirkland is just pointing out a whiff of hypocrisy in her actions.
Yes, but is that not a type of smear? Oh, you were wronged? Well let's find some skeletons in your closet and paint you a hypocrite to invalidate the whole thing. I will admit that her cries about her reputation being tarnished do have a certain irony to them though.
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  #570  
Old Posted May 16, 2018, 8:24 PM
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“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.”

Jesus condones stones thrown by sinless men, but sinless women can throw stones at men too.
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  #571  
Old Posted May 17, 2018, 12:54 AM
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“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.”

Jesus condones stones thrown by sinless men, but sinless women can throw stones at men too.
Interesting interpretation...
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  #572  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:39 AM
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What are we teaching (or not teaching) our kids that leads them to grow up to be these kinds of people? Why did these men assault those women?
I think a bigger question is why do we hear so little, if anything at all, about women sexually assaulting men and boys. Here is some very interesting reading that shows it is very common but ignored in society!

Nearly half of young men say they’ve had unwanted sex. New study says it's possible for women to rape men: 18% of surveyed guys say WOMEN USED PHYSICAL FORCE TO MAKE THEM HAVE SEX AGAINST THEIR WILL
http://time.com/37337/nearly-half-of...-unwanted-sex/ http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/rel...n-a0035915.pdf

SEXUAL VICTIMIZATION BY WOMEN IS MORE COMMON THAN PREVIOUSLY KNOWN
A NEW STUDY GIVES A PORTRAIT OF FEMALE PERPETRATORS
In 2014, we published a study on the sexual victimization of men, finding that men were much more likely to be victims of sexual abuse than was thought. To understand who was committing the abuse, we next analyzed four surveys conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to glean an overall picture of how frequently women were committing sexual victimization.
The results were surprising. For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.
And, because we had previously shown that nearly one million incidents of sexual victimization happen in our nation’s prisons and jails each year, we knew that no analysis of sexual victimization in the U.S. would be complete without a look at sexual abuse happening behind bars. We found that, contrary to assumptions, the biggest threat to women serving time does not come from male corrections staff. Instead, female victims are more than three times as likely to experience sexual abuse by other women inmates than by male staff.
Male-perpetrated sexual victimization finally came to public attention after centuries of denial and indifference, thanks to women’s rights advocates and the anti-rape movement. Attention to sexual victimization perpetrated by women should be understood as a necessary next step in continuing and expanding upon this important legacy.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...Facebook-Share

NEW CDC (CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL) DATA AGAIN FINDS AS MANY (IF NOT MORE) MALE VICTIMS OF FEMALE RAPISTS THAN FEMALE VICTIMS OF MALE RAPISTS. CDC CONTINUES TO IGNORE ITS OWN SHOCKING FINDINGS
The difference stands out more when you look at data for each year. Victimization rates between female rape victims and male “made-to-penetrate” victims were relatively comparable in 2010 and 2011 (a shocking finding by itself), but in 2012 the number female rape victims fell drastically while the number of male victims of “made to penetrate” went up. The NISVS shows an estimated 740,000 more male victims of “made to penetrate” than female victims of rape in 2012 (217, 222).
https://recalculatingthegenderwar.tu...ny-if-not-more

Why Do Men Have Unwanted Sex? It’s Not Just Gender Expectations, New Research Finds
Men have unwanted sex with women in order to conform to gender expectations and to avoid uncomfortable interactions finds new research by a New York University sociologist.
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publi...tations--.html
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  #573  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:25 AM
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I think it is a lot more common than people think for men to be sexually assaulted by women. I actually think the main force keeping this from being exposed is pretty much the same toxic masculinity that creates male->female sexual harassment; men who admit being sexually assaulted are often ridiculed by other men.
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  #574  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:36 AM
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If they're not ridiculed, you've instead got people like Bill Maher who make jokes like "I wish I was that kid!" when they find out about a young boy being raped by a teacher or something like that.

DLLB's own post still points the finger at how men treat each other as being a major contributor to this problem. All of the agencies in my city that I can think of that offer services to support male victims of sexual abuse are women. It's sad how men just ignore their own, but when you suggest they do better, they cry about how you're being "misandrist" or some shit like that.
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  #575  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:39 AM
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I think it is a lot more common than people think for men to be sexually assaulted by women. I actually think the main force keeping this from being exposed is pretty much the same toxic masculinity that creates male->female sexual harassment; men who admit being sexually assaulted are often ridiculed by other men.
I could see it being worse for teenage boys and men who are ‘supposed to’ always want sex. In my experience it seems to be more downplaying than mockery. The worst is ‘At least it wasn’t a man’.

I am starting to think that maybe Me Too isn’t as open to men being victimized by women as I once thought. It doesn’t fit the media narrative. There isn’t a lot of room for grey area or opposition it seems. Female sexual predators aren’t on anyone’s radar. It’s hard for the public to fathom. The real issue though is that not enough men are coming forward. I don’t know if it’s denial, fear or just shame, but we aren’t advocating enough for ourselves.
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  #576  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:47 AM
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I am starting to think that maybe Me Too isn’t as open to men being victimized by women as I once thought. It doesn’t fit the media narrative.
We need to change the media narrative, and we do that with:

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men ... coming forward. ...advocating enough for ourselves.
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  #577  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:51 AM
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We need to change the media narrative, and we do that with:
I submitted an Op-Ed to a major newspaper and never heard anything back. I realize it’s only one but I felt too dejected to try elsewhere. I do have a friend who writes for the National Post. I wonder if I could reach out to him for advice. Part of me feels like ‘who am I’ to do that though.
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  #578  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:05 AM
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I think it is a lot more common than people think for men to be sexually assaulted by women. I actually think the main force keeping this from being exposed is pretty much the same toxic masculinity that creates male->female sexual harassment; men who admit being sexually assaulted are often ridiculed by other men.
I tuned out at the sight of 'toxic masculinity.'

We should attempt to discuss these issues without unleashing the hateful and odious language of feminist ideologues.
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  #579  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:15 AM
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I tuned out at the sight of 'toxic masculinity.'

We should attempt to discuss these issues without unleashing the hateful and odious language of feminist ideologues.
It would do you some good to stop viewing feminism as the enemy. As was pointed out by Vid some of the only support for male victims has come from women’s groups. Personally I can tell you that the most empathetic people who reached out to me when I revealed my story were women who had been hurt by males. And yes toxic masculinity is real. Look no further than Russia and Vladimir Putin outlawing gays and imprisoning vocal feminists like Pussy Riot. Or take a peak at what is unfolding in the U.S. right now with the sexual predator in chief. If you want an every day example look no further than the ubiquitous Tap Out wearing douche nozzles who drive jacked up Ford F-350’s. On the political front look no further than the rise of the misogynistic and violent Alt Right.
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  #580  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:29 AM
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Just for the record, I don't think I've ever said the phrase "toxic masculinity".

But, the expectations that men place on other men hurts men, just as the expectations women place on other women hurts women. When a boy is raped by a woman and you joke about wishing you were that boy, you're hurting that boy, and others like him, as well. Is that not misandrist? When you joke about men getting raped by other men in prison, is that not making light of men who are victims of assault? Is that not misandrist? You do not have to be a feminist to hate misandry.
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