HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Sacramento Area


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #241  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2007, 6:45 PM
urban_encounter's Avatar
urban_encounter urban_encounter is online now
“The Big EasyChair”
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 🌳🌴🌲 Sacramento 🌳 🌴🌲
Posts: 5,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip View Post
Downtown Fresno struggles with some of the same issues as Downtown Sacramento.




Sorry but i don't see any similarities, at all.
__________________
“The best friend on earth of man is the tree. When we use the tree respectfully and economically, we have one of the greatest resources on the earth.” – Frank Lloyd Wright
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #242  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 1:04 AM
buckfmsac buckfmsac is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Anchorage,AK.
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozone View Post
Daily Rant: I’m I the only one who thinks that the City’s proposed height zoning and those skyline scenarios are just a big waste of time and money. The City has shelves stacked full of reports and studies with recommendations that have never been followed. It gives “planners” a job I guess. I don’t like height restrictions in general just as I don’t think all home remodeling in older suburbs being restricted to avoid Mc Mansions. The design of each project should be the determining factor.

Question: And Do any of you know if Westfield has made their remodel plans public yet? I can't wait....
"Sacramentally Ill" I love it, but I feel your pain.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #243  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 1:17 AM
Phillip Phillip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 562
Quote:
Sorry but i don't see any similarities, at all.
I think there are some similarities between downtown Fresno and downtown Sacramento. (I lived in Fresno from 1999 to 2001 and go back every so often to visit.)

The employment base in both downtowns is largely government workers and banking. Very little retail, company headquarters, or residential in either.

The downtown streets are named A, B, C, D, E...

It's 110 degrees in July in both cities and you can't find a public water fountain that works.

Sac and Fresno both turned their main Downtown shopping streets--K Street and Fulton Street--- into pedestrian malls. K Street Mall and Fulton Mall are both six blocks long. Both cities have a beautiful empty Kress store. (Fulton Mall truly is a pedestrian mall though without buses or light rail running up the middle. It has more fountains, sculpture, playgrounds, and plaza-like seating areas than K Street does.)

Last year Fresno formed a city commission to study what to do about languishing Fulton Mall. Some of the recommendations---build more residential downtown, rehab vacant buildings, encourage new retail, more special events in the evening to keep Fulton Mall populated after 5pm---parallel what's being attempted in Sacramento. (One proposal called for reopening Fulton Mall to car traffic and allowing onstreet parking, which Sacramento can never do with K Street.)

Sac and Frenso have both tried to inject more life Downtown by building a pro sports arena. Fresno actually got their AAA ballpark built a few years ago, one block off of Fulton Street. (Picture Raley Field at 10th and J in Sacrmento.) So far Grizzly Field hasn't done much to revive downtown Fresno. Visitors mostly drive Downtown for the game, then drive right back home.

A few buildings on the periphery of Downtown Fresno have been turned into artists lofts. The area just north of Downtown Fresno is trying to turn itself into an "arts district", similar to Del Paso Blvd.

Last time I walked on Fulton Mall I saw an old brick bank or office building from the 1920's or 1930's, apparently long vacant, being restored into expensive (for Fresno) urban condos.

One big difference I see between downtown Fresno and downtown Sacramento is that there's virtually NO interest in building tall in Downtown Fresno. The tallest building in Fresno is 16 stories and it's more than 20years old. I don't think any new highrises--residential or office--have gone up in Downtown Fresno since the 1980's. No cranes on the horizon and little push from anyone to grow Fresno taller.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #244  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 1:36 AM
downtownserg89's Avatar
downtownserg89 downtownserg89 is offline
BUFF$LUT
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Era Park
Posts: 396
i have no life. here's proof


__________________
facebook.com/buffslut
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #245  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 2:32 AM
Phillip Phillip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 562
One more Fresno/Sacramento similarity....

That old bank building I mentioned on Fresno's Fulton Mall being renovated into offices on the lower floors and condo lofts on top....in its shape and proportion it reminds me a lot of 926 J Street in Sac---soon to be the Citizen Hotel.



(No life here either, serg. Nice pics though.)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #246  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 3:00 AM
downtownserg89's Avatar
downtownserg89 downtownserg89 is offline
BUFF$LUT
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Era Park
Posts: 396
thanks! its from miller park, edge of broadway
__________________
facebook.com/buffslut
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #247  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 3:16 AM
sugit sugit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: DT Sacramento
Posts: 3,076
I heard a very interesting rumor today, it might be more of info rather than rumor though.

One of my neighbors has family that works for Westfield in the development field, while we were talking about all the stuff going on around our neighborhood and DT in general, he mentioned how WF apparently has plans ready to go to redo all of DTP, but only if The Towers are built.

Now I know most of us have said Westfield would have to redo DTP if The Tower and Aura are built and the demographics change for the postive, but having someone actually confirm this is the plan, even if it isn’t first hand, puts a little more credence to that.

With that said, I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #248  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 3:22 AM
Trojan's Avatar
Trojan Trojan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 224
Meaning to redo with exterior asthetics for DTP or announce new stores/anchors for DTP?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #249  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 3:33 AM
sugit sugit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: DT Sacramento
Posts: 3,076
Not sure. Unfortunetly, he didn't know too much. He say though they were discuss if they were are going to completed enclose the place, or open it up more. Which made he also think the plans aren't completely ready to go yet. I would have to think that they if they are going to do a major rehad though, there would have to be some new tenants lined up.

I wish I had more details (I'll keep digging though), but there seems to be at least some movement on WF part to redo DTP in the nearer future if all goes well with the big condo developments
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #250  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 3:52 AM
greenmidtown greenmidtown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip View Post
I think there are some similarities between downtown Fresno and downtown Sacramento. (I lived in Fresno from 1999 to 2001 and go back every so often to visit.)

The employment base in both downtowns is largely government workers and banking. Very little retail, company headquarters, or residential in either.

The downtown streets are named A, B, C, D, E...

It's 110 degrees in July in both cities and you can't find a public water fountain that works.

Sac and Fresno both turned their main Downtown shopping streets--K Street and Fulton Street--- into pedestrian malls. K Street Mall and Fulton Mall are both six blocks long. Both cities have a beautiful empty Kress store. (Fulton Mall truly is a pedestrian mall though without buses or light rail running up the middle. It has more fountains, sculpture, playgrounds, and plaza-like seating areas than K Street does.)

Last year Fresno formed a city commission to study what to do about languishing Fulton Mall. Some of the recommendations---build more residential downtown, rehab vacant buildings, encourage new retail, more special events in the evening to keep Fulton Mall populated after 5pm---parallel what's being attempted in Sacramento. (One proposal called for reopening Fulton Mall to car traffic and allowing onstreet parking, which Sacramento can never do with K Street.)

Sac and Frenso have both tried to inject more life Downtown by building a pro sports arena. Fresno actually got their AAA ballpark built a few years ago, one block off of Fulton Street. (Picture Raley Field at 10th and J in Sacrmento.) So far Grizzly Field hasn't done much to revive downtown Fresno. Visitors mostly drive Downtown for the game, then drive right back home.

A few buildings on the periphery of Downtown Fresno have been turned into artists lofts. The area just north of Downtown Fresno is trying to turn itself into an "arts district", similar to Del Paso Blvd.

Last time I walked on Fulton Mall I saw an old brick bank or office building from the 1920's or 1930's, apparently long vacant, being restored into expensive (for Fresno) urban condos.

One big difference I see between downtown Fresno and downtown Sacramento is that there's virtually NO interest in building tall in Downtown Fresno. The tallest building in Fresno is 16 stories and it's more than 20years old. I don't think any new highrises--residential or office--have gone up in Downtown Fresno since the 1980's. No cranes on the horizon and little push from anyone to grow Fresno taller.
You clearly know little about Sacramento. This is the 4th largest metropolitan area in California with over 2 million residents, Fresno has barely a million. We have more trees than Paris, Fresno has dirt and agriculture. We're on the confluence of two rivers, Fresno is on dirt. We're the oldest incorporated city in California 1850, Fresno wasn't incorporated until 1895. We are the State Capital of the largest state in the Union with a growing beuracracy and the most employees of any state capital, Fresno has a city and county government in a depressed region of California.
Our average summer temp. is 93 degrees, for Fresno it's 97. Little but a significant difference and with our trees it feels even colder. We're the most diverse and integrated city in the country as rated by Time magazine with the highest percentage of mixed-race people, Fresno is full of farmworkers or the descendants of. We have over 70 unique and progressive neighborhoods within the vicinity of the urban core, Fresno is a ghetto.
We have light-rail connecting the city to the eastern corner of the County (Folsom) and South, North, with plans to connect to the airport. Fresno has buses but no light-rail. We have many skyscrapers planned, including the tallest residential tower in the West Coast and we have an NBA team. We have Old Sacramento, Sutters Fort, American River Parkway, we have U.C. Davis and CSUS serving the region, a burgeoning arts scene, day-trip distance to world class San Francisco and the Bay Area, and day-trip distance to renowned Lake Tahoe. Fresno has CSUF, no major-league sports team, is surrounded by farmland, but it's near Yosemite (one-point for Fresno).
In short Sacramento and Fresno are nothing alike. To the ignorant they may seem alike simply because they're both in the Central Valley, but that's like linking San Francisco and San Diego just because they're on the coast.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #251  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 4:03 AM
innov8's Avatar
innov8 innov8 is offline
Kodachrome
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: livinginurbansac.blogspot
Posts: 5,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugit View Post
I heard a very interesting rumor today, it might be more of info rather than rumor though.

One of my neighbors has family that works for Westfield in the development field, while we were talking about all the stuff going on around our neighborhood and DT in general, he mentioned how WF apparently has plans ready to go to redo all of DTP, but only if The Towers are built.

Now I know most of us have said Westfield would have to redo DTP if The Tower and Aura are built and the demographics change for the postive, but having someone actually confirm this is the plan, even if it isn’t first hand, puts a little more credence to that.

With that said, I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, I’ll believe it when I see it.
That would not surprise me that Westfield is waiting on the Towers... I think
I may have mentioned that when william and I had our debate on the topic.
Westfield has not submitted anything to the planning department about
remodeling the mall either. I think it's been about two months since they made
the big announcement that something was going to happen... were still waiting
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #252  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 4:14 AM
brandon12 brandon12 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 998
I tend to agree with Phillip to an extent. I definitely see similarities. I would say Fresno is about where Sacramento was in the 1970s or early 80s. (although admittedly, I have only been through Fresno once for an hour or two almost 10 years ago). But I have read and know a significant amount about Fresno.
As far as the business and cultural environment, perhaps it may be fair to say that Portland is to Sacramento is to Fresno?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #253  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 4:51 AM
snufalufugus snufalufugus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 132
I'm not sure if this was posted earlier this week but here it is....




Collision nears on growth proposal
Supervisors to weigh Tsakopoulos bid to transform rural area.
By Mary Lynne Vellinga - Bee Staff Writer
Published 1:00 am PDT Sunday, March 11, 2007


Along White Rock Road in eastern Sacramento County, pastures abruptly give way to tiled rooftops at the El Dorado County line.

On the Sacramento County side, the scene has changed little in the past century. Cows graze in gently rolling, grass-covered pastures. On the El Dorado side, however, office buildings, houses and retail stores have replaced the cattle.

Developer Angelo K. Tsakopoulos and his partners have spent the past decade accumulating ranches on both sides of the boundary. They control a swath of ranch land that straddles the county line and stretches south from White Rock Road about eight miles, beyond any land contemplated for growth by El Dorado County.

Now, Tsakopoulos is arguing to the Sacramento County Board of Supervisors that it ought to take the first step toward urbanization of his property on the Sacramento side of the county line. The justification: the thousands of new homes and jobs in El Dorado and the planned expansion of Folsom into land north of White Rock Road.

Tsakopoulos' proposal to potentially include 3,400 acres of grazing land in the new Sacramento County plan is the most controversial issue facing the supervisors as they gather Wednesday for a workshop on the general plan, which will serve as a blueprint for growth until 2030.

His land is about four miles outside the urban growth boundary adopted by the board as part of its 1993 general plan. Environmental groups view this line as inviolate and are rallying their members to attend the workshop.

County planners also oppose moving the boundary, as does Supervisor Don Nottoli, whose district includes the land.

In a staff report, the Planning Department says 1.4 miles of Tsakopoulos' Sacramento County land abuts planned or existing development in El Dorado County. The remaining seven miles border farmland also owned by Tsakopoulos and his partners, which remains zoned for agriculture in the El Dorado general plan.

Tsakopoulos argues that there's no reason for the county not to include his land in the environmental review being conducted for the general plan. The actual decisions about which land will be opened for building won't be made until the environmental analysis is done more than a year from now.

"What we're saying is that it is prudent for the community to examine all of its options," he said. "If we don't examine them, we may miss them."

He calls the eastern edge of Sacramento County "an exceptional location for future growth."

"Often you hear that we should preserve prime agricultural land; this isn't agricultural land," Tsakopoulos said. "It's grazing land, and it's the poorest.

"We don't have any trees. Whatever trees we have will be preserved. We don't have endangered species. We don't have the vernal pools you find in other parts of the county. It does not flood," Tsakopoulos said. "This property is on the boundary of the El Dorado Hills Business Park and Folsom, which have an enormous amount of jobs."

He held out the possibility that he would set aside significant open space land to offset development. That could help the Sacramento Valley Conservancy accomplish its goal of creating a permanent belt of ranches and oak woodlands connecting its Deer Creek Hills preserve -- which abuts the Tsakopoulos land -- to the Cosumnes River and the American River Parkway.

Tsakopoulos' enthusiasm is not shared by environmentalists or government planners. They view the proposal as the first step by an influential developer to put growth where it is inappropriate.

His land, now served by a few rough gravel roads, lacks groundwater to serve potential residents, they say. Miles of ranch land separate most of it from the county's urbanized portions.

"This is a bad idea, and it really needs to be put to rest now," said Mike McKeever, executive director of the Sacramento Area Council of Governments, the regional transportation agency.

SACOG, made up of all the local governments in the region, hosted more than 5,000 residents at workshops before its 2004 approval of the Blueprint, a regional plan to contain sprawl, revitalize existing neighborhoods, and accommodate growth over the next half century.

"We really don't need the wasted energy and the political controversy that will ensue from including this on a study list," McKeever said. "This region has way more important land use and transportation priorities."

Tsakopoulos took Supervisor Notolli on a drive to show him the property, but he remained skeptical, saying he wasn't persuaded to vote yes.

Most of the land Tsakopoulos seeks to bring into the urban area is "very rural," Nottoli said. He said maintaining ranches helps preserve the county's varied character.

"You've got a thriving urban center, you've got suburban communities, and then you have rural communities with a strong history," he said. "I think it's important to do our best to try to balance that."

Supervisor Roger Dickinson said he is not inclined to move the growth boundary because it would be expensive for Sacramento County to serve. "For us in Sacramento County, it's like going to Pluto," he said. "You sort of wonder why should we spend a lot of time on this when it's not at all clear how you provide water and other necessities.

"I think what Angelo wants is a chance to be in the game, and then make his argument, thinking he'll be able to persuade enough people to his point of view," Dickinson said.

In his nearly 50 years in the development business, Tsakopoulos has played a key role in transforming rural Sacramento into suburban communities such as Elk Grove, Folsom, Roseville, the Pocket, North Natomas and -- most recently -- Sunrise-Douglas.

Through myriad real estate partnerships, he controls about 40,000 acres in the Sacramento region and neighboring San Joaquin County -- far more than any other individual.

Tsakopoulos donates millions of dollars to Democratic candidates on the local, state and national level. Last year, supervisor candidate Jimmie Yee was among the candidates he supported. Tsakopoulos and his family members held a fundraiser for Yee and donated several thousand dollars.

Now in his new supervisor's role, Yee said last week that Tsakopoulos' proposal to look at developing along the El Dorado County line might be worth examining in further detail. He was joined by his colleagues Susan Peters and Roberta MacGlashan, making a potential majority on the five-member board.

But Friday, Yee said he was developing doubts about whether the Tsakopoulos land should be included in the environmental review. He said maps published in The Bee showed that most of the land along the county line was slated to remain in agriculture.

"If that is all correct, my feeling right now is I wouldn't go any farther down than what El Dorado is doing, and even that would be questionable, because Folsom hasn't even done anything yet on their land south of Highway 50."


Reply With Quote
     
     
  #254  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 5:27 AM
ozone's Avatar
ozone ozone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sacramento California
Posts: 2,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon12 View Post
I tend to agree with Phillip to an extent. I definitely see similarities. I would say Fresno is about where Sacramento was in the 1970s or early 80s. (although admittedly, I have only been through Fresno once for an hour or two almost 10 years ago). But I have read and know a significant amount about Fresno.
As far as the business and cultural environment, perhaps it may be fair to say that Portland is to Sacramento is to Fresno?
I disagree with you guys. While there are some similarities between the two cities you can say that about a lot of cities. I find Fresno to be typical of other Valley cities only larger whereas Sacramento has somehow transcended the Valley. You can say that Sacramento today in the Valley but not of it. Even in the 1970's and early 80's Sacramento was already "different" than the rest of the Valley. Of course, you can't get that by simply looking at stats and pictures of the skyline. What I think you are saying brandon is that in the evolutionary chain of cities Fresno is the least evolved ..followed by Sacramento ...followed by Portland. I would agree with you there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #255  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 6:02 AM
ozone's Avatar
ozone ozone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sacramento California
Posts: 2,270
Speaking of evolution... we need the urban growth boundary, such as it is, to hold. Of course, Tsakopoulos is going call the eastern edge of Sacramento County "an exceptional location for future growth" since he has spent "the past decade accumulating ranches on both sides of the boundary" so that he can cash in on that growth ..But suburban sprawl by any other name...

"In his nearly 50 years in the development business, Tsakopoulos has played a key role in transforming rural Sacramento into suburban communities such as Elk Grove, Folsom, Roseville, the Pocket, North Natomas and -- most recently -- Sunrise-Douglas.

Tsakopoulos donates millions of dollars to candidates on the local, state and national level...money talks....and while Mr. T's bank account grows our region's air pollution and traffic congestion grows and our open space shrinks. Gee what proud legacy you have Mr. Tsakopoulos!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #256  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 8:18 AM
Phillip Phillip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmidtown View Post
You clearly know little about Sacramento. This is the 4th largest metropolitan area in California with over 2 million residents, Fresno has barely a million.
When it comes to cities I think of a 2 million metro and a 1 million metro as being around the same order of magnitude. Neither is a town of 50,000 and neither is a megalopolis of 12 or 15 million. It's all a matter of perspective.

Quote:
In short Sacramento and Fresno are nothing alike. To the ignorant they may seem alike simply because they're both in the Central Valley, but that's like linking San Francisco and San Diego just because they're on the coast.
If Sacramento hadn't become Califonia's Capitol it would be another hot, flat, agriculture-based city with high unemployment today, just like Fresno. But we did become the Capitol and that did change some things. Let's not forget our roots though. Sacramento might have a thousand lobbyists and ten thousand DMV file clerks that Fresno lacks but that doesn't transform Sacramento into Paris.

I've lived in Sacramento and Fresno and the Bay, and to me Sacramento is more like Fresno than San Francisco. Just my opinion. And that's not a slam on Sacramento because I like Fresno. I like Sacramento and San Francisco too---for different reasons and in different ways, and I don't feel need to choose one above the others.

One way Sacramento and Fresno ARE different is that Fresnans rarely feel a need to express how Fresno is larger/richer/better than Bakersfield or Modesto or Stockton. They accept Fresno as it is and don't compare themselves or strive to become more like someplace else.

While Sacramento is always trying to become more like San Francisco, more like Portland, more like....and spends a lot of time and energy trying to explain to outsiders how sophisticated and cosmopolitan and big league Sacramento really has become.

Even though Sacramento has more money and population and resources than Fresno, Sacramento sometimes suffers from an inferiority complex that Fresno doesn't have. Your very defensive response, greenmidtown, to my simple assertion that I see some similarities between Downtown Fresno and Downtown Sacramento is a good example of Sacramentans peculiar need to convince the world how very great and special Sacramento really is.

No, I don't think Sac and Fresno are identical and probably over the next 20 years their paths will diverge even more. But they have NOTHING in common? And anyone who thinks they do is IGNORANT?

Your defense of Sacramento, which needs no defense, reminds me of Hyacinth Bucket on "Keeping Up Appearances", declaring that her name is pronounced "Bouquet" not "Bucket", and those trashy women smoking in the kitchen are NOT any relatives of hers.

Quote:
We have over 70 unique and progressive neighborhoods within the vicinity of the urban core, Fresno is a ghetto.
Thank God Sacramento doesn't have any bad neighborhoods!

Last edited by Phillip; Mar 12, 2007 at 8:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #257  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 10:03 AM
bennywah's Avatar
bennywah bennywah is offline
Highrise
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 318
You know what, right now Sacramento reminds me of the fat kid that all of the sudden has lost a lot of weight and is starting to come into its own, feel more confiedent and attractive and because its all new to him, he sometimes has to point out all of the good things that have happened to hide some insecurities he may still have.

I would say Sac has always been a pleasent place to live, lots of variety in people and overall great for a family, but its only been in the last 5-6 years that more of a true urban culture has come along, the restraunts the night life the art scene ect, I'm constantly amazed by how much the place keeps changing everytime i come home to visit and its been with this new found enthusiasm and investment in the core that has started to bring Sac out of the shawdows of the bay area. Out side of people who have visited or lived in Sac most people would think no higher or lower of either Sac or fresno, trust me I've talked to them and had to defend my home city to the point I actually brought a few friends home with me one time and they were blown away by how nice, cosmopolitan and green the city was.

In a way it kinda makes Sac this happy surprise when people actually see how vibrant the place has become and its ok in time as more progress is made and the city grows up and into its new attractive skin, its confiedence will be higher and people wont need to defend its merits to others, it'll speak for themselves, that inferioty complex will be shed away and Sac will be another city in california people will want to visit because they will hear about how great it is, and where it came from.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #258  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 11:01 AM
BrianSac's Avatar
BrianSac BrianSac is offline
CHACUN SON GOÛT
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,646
Its been awhile since I posted anything figured its about time I do. Some difference and similarities between Fresno and Sacramento: I am one of those highly-defensive Sacramentans for the record, but these are the "facts" corrective me if I'm wrong. A Big Central Valley heat wave will last twice as long and burn 5 to 10 degrees hotter in Fresno than Sacramento. The same 8-day heat wave in Fresno will last only 3 days in Sacramento. Sacramento has the Delta Breeze which will all know makes a huge difference during the summer. It may reach 102 in Sac but that same evening it will cool quickly and dramaticly; Fresno will reach 111 and continue to sizzle into the night. Fresno's downtown is truely pathetic; sort of like Sac circa 1968, really. There are some great older suburban neighborhoods that are exactly like some older cooler Sac suburban neighborhoods. Sac has a steady strong middle class supported by good paying state employment. Sac has high tech. Fresno doesn't. Sac's bay area transplants are from all points in the Bay area. Fresno's come from the ghetto in South San Jose. Sac has the Capitol Corridor trains providing connections to the east bay, SF, and downtown San Jose. Sac is 1 hour closer to 75% of the bay area. Sac's potential to become an unique "great" 2nd tier American city is "light" years ahead of Fresno. Sac is truely twice the size of Fresno. 2.2 million compared to 1.1 million makes a huge difference in terms of culture, retail, arts, diversity. Sac International is the greatest airport as it stands now in terms of direct flights, easy in, easy out, in the near future it will just keep getting better in terms of more direct flights and with its huge expansion. Fresno's airport doesnt even compare. Sac has the UC Medical Center in the heart of Sacramento, not to mention the UC Davis Campus, and the city of Davis, 12 miles away. Fresno has absolutely nothing like Davis in terms of a highly educated, high-paying, real college town....and I have issues with Davis, although I did get may CMT license there. Sac has the American River running though the spine of its great suburban neighborhoods...rafting parties, etc. There is no large lake nearby in Fresno. Sacramento has Folsom Lake not mention the city of Folsom. Sac has the Sacramento River, party boats during the summer water skiing, etc. Sacramento is a valley town and will always be a valley town (a mean that in a good way), but thats where the similarity with Fresno ends. The vibe and feel of Sac for at least 2 decades has transended Fresno. Fresno's look, feel and vibe is still more like Tulare, Ceres, and Madera despites its 1.1 million. It has potential but it will never be a Sacramento, just has Sacramento will never be a SF. SF is on my awesome city list again, 80 degrees today, windless, fogless, crystal clear. You can let your dogs run leashless on Ocean and Baker Beach!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #259  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 2:25 PM
urban_encounter's Avatar
urban_encounter urban_encounter is online now
“The Big EasyChair”
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 🌳🌴🌲 Sacramento 🌳 🌴🌲
Posts: 5,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip View Post
When it comes to cities I think of a 2 million metro and a 1 million metro as being around the same order of magnitude. Neither is a town of 50,000 and neither is a megalopolis of 12 or 15 million. It's all a matter of perspective.

If Sacramento hadn't become Califonia's Capitol it would be another hot, flat, agriculture-based city with high unemployment today, just like Fresno. But we did become the Capitol and that did change some things. Let's not forget our roots though. Sacramento might have a thousand lobbyists and ten thousand DMV file clerks that Fresno lacks but that doesn't transform Sacramento into Paris.

I've lived in Sacramento and Fresno and the Bay, and to me Sacramento is more like Fresno than San Francisco. Just my opinion. And that's not a slam on Sacramento because I like Fresno. I like Sacramento and San Francisco too---for different reasons and in different ways, and I don't feel need to choose one above the others.

One way Sacramento and Fresno ARE different is that Fresnans rarely feel a need to express how Fresno is larger/richer/better than Bakersfield or Modesto or Stockton. They accept Fresno as it is and don't compare themselves or strive to become more like someplace else.

While Sacramento is always trying to become more like San Francisco, more like Portland, more like....and spends a lot of time and energy trying to explain to outsiders how sophisticated and cosmopolitan and big league Sacramento really has become.

Even though Sacramento has more money and population and resources than Fresno, Sacramento sometimes suffers from an inferiority complex that Fresno doesn't have. Your very defensive response, greenmidtown, to my simple assertion that I see some similarities between Downtown Fresno and Downtown Sacramento is a good example of Sacramentans peculiar need to convince the world how very great and special Sacramento really is.

No, I don't think Sac and Fresno are identical and probably over the next 20 years their paths will diverge even more. But they have NOTHING in common? And anyone who thinks they do is IGNORANT?

Your defense of Sacramento, which needs no defense, reminds me of Hyacinth Bucket on "Keeping Up Appearances", declaring that her name is pronounced "Bouquet" not "Bucket", and those trashy women smoking in the kitchen are NOT any relatives of hers.

Thank God Sacramento doesn't have any bad neighborhoods!

Easy there Phillip.

No need to get hysterical on us...

I'm not going to get into a comparison of the two cities because this forum isn't the place for a city vs. city argument... While i've never lived in Fresno I do have relatives that live there, which is why your comparisons don't exactly resonate me.. That being said, suffice to say that comparing Fresno to Sacramento is like comparing Sacramento to San Francisco... The three are each unique in there own way....

One more thing. You say that


Quote:
Fresnans rarely feel a need to express how Fresno is larger/richer/better than Bakersfield or Modesto or Stockton. They accept Fresno as it is and don't compare themselves or strive to become more like someplace else.
Evidently that isn't exactly true, since it was you that offered up the comparison of Fresno and Sacramento. Striving to be like someplace else maybe???

__________________
“The best friend on earth of man is the tree. When we use the tree respectfully and economically, we have one of the greatest resources on the earth.” – Frank Lloyd Wright
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #260  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2007, 4:21 PM
sugit sugit is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: DT Sacramento
Posts: 3,076
Quote:
Originally Posted by bennywah View Post
You know what, right now Sacramento reminds me of the fat kid that all of the sudden has lost a lot of weight and is starting to come into its own, feel more confiedent and attractive and because its all new to him, he sometimes has to point out all of the good things that have happened to hide some insecurities he may still have.

I would say Sac has always been a pleasent place to live, lots of variety in people and overall great for a family, but its only been in the last 5-6 years that more of a true urban culture has come along, the restraunts the night life the art scene ect, I'm constantly amazed by how much the place keeps changing everytime i come home to visit and its been with this new found enthusiasm and investment in the core that has started to bring Sac out of the shawdows of the bay area. Out side of people who have visited or lived in Sac most people would think no higher or lower of either Sac or fresno, trust me I've talked to them and had to defend my home city to the point I actually brought a few friends home with me one time and they were blown away by how nice, cosmopolitan and green the city was.

In a way it kinda makes Sac this happy surprise when people actually see how vibrant the place has become and its ok in time as more progress is made and the city grows up and into its new attractive skin, its confiedence will be higher and people wont need to defend its merits to others, it'll speak for themselves, that inferioty complex will be shed away and Sac will be another city in california people will want to visit because they will hear about how great it is, and where it came from.
You are always so eloquent, bennywah. Well said, and I totally agree.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Sacramento Area
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:41 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.