Is your city split more along north-south or east-west lines?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

On the east-west divide in Cleveland:

https://www.thrillist.com/lifestyle/...t-side-history

looking more closely at a map of cleveland than i ever have before, there are shockingly few low-level pedestrian-friendly bridges across the cuyahoga in cleveland. and the valley remains very industrial pretty deep inland as well. in terms of the built environment, the cuyahoga river valley does seem to be a pretty big and significant barrier between east and west cleveland.

[Centropolis]

the huangpu isn't dividing the historical core of shanghai from a large hinterland, or something. it was mainly an agricultural plain east of the river, stetching towards a foggy low slung coastline until pudong and the airport became more than a twinkle in the eye. at least from what i can tell.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

looking more closely at a map of cleveland than i ever have before, there are shockingly few low-level pedestrian-friendly bridges across the cuyahoga in cleveland. and the valley remains very industrial pretty deep inland as well. in terms of the built environment, the cuyahoga river valley does seem to be a pretty big and significant barrier between east and west cleveland.

my only experience with cleveland, at a personal level at least with old friends, who are second and third gen lebanese americans on the westside/university circle/shaker heights/connecticut western reserve towns, left a far less rustbelty impression of cleveland on me than one might expect out of cleveland. i've never explored the westside.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

on the westside/university circle/shaker heights/connecticut western reserve towns, left a far less rustbelty impression of cleveland on me than one might expect out of cleveland. i've never explored the eastside.

Kinda confused... University Circle and Shaker Heights are eastside

[Centropolis]

meant westside...the more i travel the more temporarily confused i get with directions, im still messed up from asia.

[Private Dick]

^ got it. Wasn't trying to be nitpicky, and I figured that's what you meant, but I thought maybe I was missing something when I read it. And yeah, Cleveland can put on a decidedly non-rustbelty face in many parts.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

^ got it. Wasn't trying to be nitpicky, and I figured that's what you meant, but I thought maybe I was missing something when I read it. And yeah, Cleveland can put on a decidedly non-rustbelty face in many parts.

it sounds atrocious but i'm most comfortable in the best quarters of rustbelt cities, places like shaker heights, which i live in the st. louis version of (university city) because they are kinda cheap due to large areas of urban decay (and of course they have their own merits) that area of cleveland felt pretty familiar.

[Centropolis]

that might be for the unpopular opinion section.

[lzppjb]

Originally Posted by drummer

Austin is fairly East-West, especially along the I-35 line. It's mixing up a bit now and there are certainly other lines, but that's the historic divide, I think. Others may be able to elaborate more.

Originally Posted by InTheBurbs

Houston - East/West, roughly along I-45, or I-45 north/TX-288 south
Tucson - North/South
Phoenix - East Valley vs. West Valley
Denver - North/South
Austin - Could be East/West along I-35 as Drummer mentioned, but there's also a North Austin/South Austin divide at the river as well though maybe not as much as in the past.

Originally Posted by The ATX

I would say the river splitting Austin N & S is used just as much as I-35 is used for splitting the city E & W. It depends on the context of the discussion as to which one is used.

I have to say Austin is divided into North/South more than East/West. It's been that way since the beginning. The capitol was built north of the river. South of the river was remote farm/ranch land, and difficult to access. Ferry boats were first used to cross long before bridges were built.

North of the river has always been the government, academia, and businessmen. South Austin has usually been blue collar workers (construction, mechanics, etc) and hippies/artisans. South Austinites were referred to as Bubbas.

In the 1980s, there was a North vs. South tug-o-war across the river. The South usually won, btw.

When people ask me where I'm from, I say South Austin. I doubt very much that people say they're from East Austin or West Austin when talking to someone from Dallas. But many will mention being from North or South.

Also, the East/West split is really just north of the river. That alone should disqualify it. North/South split contains the entire city.

drummer - I wouldn't say I-35 was the historic split since 35 was only built in the 1950s. Before that it was just East Avenue. Congress Avenue was the E/W split back then. The addresses still bear that split (Ex: East 6th is east of Congress).

[ue]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the huangpu isn't dividing the historical core of shanghai from a large hinterland, or something. it was mainly an agricultural plain east of the river, stetching towards a foggy low slung coastline until pudong and the airport became more than a twinkle in the eye. at least from what i can tell.

Yeah, that makes sense, based on all I've seen of Pudong from before the '90s. It was just crazy to think, in robust China, one of its premiere cities did not have a bridge link between the two main sides until fairly recently. But I guess that just goes to show how quickly cities like Shanghai have urbanized and expanded.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Docere

San Francisco had a large Irish Catholic and Italian population historically, so I guess that explains the pretty high Catholic population (in addition to Hispanics and Filipinos). Yet you don't have "white ethnic" enclaves like you do in the Northeast and some of the Great Lakes cities.

You certainly do have an historic "Little Italy" (aka North Beach) and there is a remnant of the Sandinavian and Basque cultures in places like Upper Market. Also, there is a substantial Russian neighborhood in the outer Richmond District of more recent vintage. Finally, judging by the numbers of white kids I see every day coming and going from Saced Heart Academy and Cathedral Prep (excellent Catholic schools), I suspect more remains of the historic irish population in the Richmond and Sunset Districts than one might think.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

You certainly do have an historic "Little Italy" (aka North Beach) and there is a remnant of the Sandinavian and Basque cultures in places like Upper Market. Also, there is a substantial Russian neighborhood in the outer Richmond District of more recent vintage.

North Beach is a historic Italian enclave and can't be called one today. But during the white flight/postwar suburbanization area what happened to SF's Italians? AFAIK they completely dispersed. This in contrast to the Northeast and even Chicago and Cleveland where new concentrations emerged in the suburbs.

What I find fascinating too is the Bay Area seems to lack anything resembling a "Jewish suburb." Even a lot of "non-white ethnic" cities like Washington DC, L.A., and Seattle have them.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

...You do realize that the first roads weren't built across the Hudson until the 20s and 30s, yes?

The Huangpu is not a trivial engineering challenge.

The first Hudson River crossing in NYC proper opened in 1909.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

western-y scene in kansas city:

https://goo.gl/maps/d4LTSP1yfFy

easterny scene in st. louis:

https://goo.gl/maps/BwGouGf4JFs

the differences between st. paul and minneapolis are certainly there, but i don't read them as east vs west. it was admittedly harder to find a really contrasting street scene because i am far less familiar with the twin cities.

Here is the Twin Cities version. Demographically these are similar neighborhoods.

Payne Avenue on the East Side of St Paul:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9706...7i13312!8i6656

Lake Street in South Minneapolis:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9484...7i13312!8i6656

A lot of Minneapolis kind of looks like Denver or the old parts of LA to me. Miles of craftsman bungalows, lots of stucco, misplaced Spanish revival buildings, old streetcar commercial nodes, similar architecture in general. St Paul seems to have a more classically Midwestern feel, part late booming river city, with a little bit of Great Lakes. St Paul has 5 liberal arts colleges in the western part of the city, 4 of them in the Macalester Groveland neighborhood. That part of St Paul feels like an overgrown little Ohio college town.

[Docere]

Historically, St. Paul was more German, Irish and Catholic; Minneapolis more Scandinavian and Protestant.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Docere

Historically, St. Paul was more German, Irish and Catholic; Minneapolis more Scandinavian and Protestant.

St Paul also had small Italian, Mexican and Lebanese enclaves by 1920. Minneapolis' smaller ethnic enclaves were Ukrainian, Jewish, Polish and Native American.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Chef

Minneapolis' smaller ethnic enclaves were Ukrainian, Jewish, Polish and Native American.

Sounds a bit like Winnipeg.

[mja]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

PA cities...

Philadelphia is definitely North-South, but then there's also West Philly, so..

I don't know that Philly fits into this paradigm. Technically, it's both. Market St splits the city up N/S while Broad does the same thing W/E. But even that's not a good way to really think about the city.

Racially, if you look at maps of the city that measure that, you actually see more of an E/W divide then a N/S, despite what you might immediately think of North Philly vs. South Philly, but even that's not quite as simple. The city is more of a patchwork quilt with each patch feeling distinct from the others.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

not all major US cities are bastions of catholicism.

here are the 17 largest US metro areas ranked by % catholic, from the Pew study:

Chicago - 34%
NYC - 33%
LA - 32%
san diego - 32%
boston - 29%
miami - 27%
philadelphia - 26%
san francisco - 25%
riverside - 22%

US Average - 21%
mineapolis - 21%
phoenix - 21%

washington - 19%
houston - 19%
detroit - 16%
seattle - 15%
dallas - 15%
atlanta - 11%


9 are above the national average, 2 are right on the national average, and 6 are below the national average.

ahem, just sayin, but metro cleveland would be 5th on that list: 29.60%


http://www.bestplaces.net/religion/m...eveland-elyria

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

looking more closely at a map of cleveland than i ever have before, there are shockingly few low-level pedestrian-friendly bridges across the cuyahoga in cleveland. and the valley remains very industrial pretty deep inland as well. in terms of the built environment, the cuyahoga river valley does seem to be a pretty big and significant barrier between east and west cleveland.

oh they are there. the cuyahoga valley is deep and wide, but narrows down by the river, so there is quite an interesting mix of bridges. in fact, that mix is one of the cool, quirky things about cleveland.

there are several small old ped friendly bridges at the lower riverfront level, like in the flats and industrial areas. of the large valley spans, the detroit-superior and lorain-carnegie bridges are ped and bike friendly. i dk about the brand new innerbelt dual bridge spans, now called the george voinovich bridge.







so yes for sure the valley is indeed a significant barrier that cuts the city in two. it's eastside and westside history is quite colorful. it even includes a battle between the two sides, known as the bridge war - here is a blurb about it per wiki:


'Cleveland developed slowly until the arrival of the Ohio and Erie Canal, which brought a trade route from the Ohio River and other southern Ohio cities. The heavily Irish immigrant workforce that built the canal took residence on the West Bank of the Flats and the neighboring town of Ohio City.

Ohio City's rise, fueled by the produce that flowed from Medina County farms along U.S. 42 to the West Side Market, was soon viewed as a threat to Cleveland's development. In response, Cleveland destroyed its half of a floating bridge at Main Street (located near the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway crossing) which was the sole river crossing. Cleveland then built a new bridge further downstream which connected Cleveland Mayor John W. Willey and developer/friend Jas Clark's "Willeyville" and "Cleveland Centre" developments along the newly constructed Columbus Road. The new bridge diverted the produce trade from the West Side Market to the new Central Market.

Infuriated Ohio City residents, rallying with the cry of "Two bridges or none," marched on the new bridge with guns, axes, and other tools. They met a mob of Cleveland residents ready to fight; the ensuing "Bridge War" was put down by county sheriff's officers.

The courts ultimately forced Cleveland to rebuild its half of the Main Street Bridge, but the damage had been done, and Ohio City soon became the first area to be annexed by the larger city.'



lastly, to the north, there is also a significant dropoff from the city center to the lakefront as well. there is talk of a new ped bridge there:


Decision on fate of pedestrian bridge needs grounding in stronger lakefront vision (photos)

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer
January 05, 2017

CLEVELAND, Ohio - The New Year has arrived as a tricky moment for the beautiful but admittedly expensive pedestrian bridge envisioned for the city's downtown lakefront by Boston architect Miguel Rosales.

In fact, it's uncertain whether the city, Cuyahoga County and the nonprofit Group Plan Commission will go ahead with the project.

At the same time, it's abundantly clear that any decision should be informed by a sharper vision for the central downtown lakefront.


more:
http://www.cleveland.com/architectur...an_bridge.html