The "me-too" movement

[ssiguy]

I think it's about time we talked about this issue as it now has gone from the entertainment and business realm into the halls of power in our political institutions.

I am very glad that this issue is finally coming to light and these men are getting their just rewards. It's not {like rape} a sexual issue as much as it is one of power and men still run our world.

I do have 2 main concerns however about the me-too movement. First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters. Right now I think these allegations are probably true as "coming out" is still rather precarious but as time goes on and people are encouraged to bring these men to justice you will inevitably start getting women {or men} who see nothing but dollar signs in front of them or just want to get their name in the papers, or use it as a bargaining chip for wage increases or hiring..........give me what I want or I'll go public with an event that never happened and you will pay the price, economically and socially.

Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system. Right now everyone is being fired from their jobs left, right, and centre but is that fair? Is that just? Currently we are treating someone who may just say "you look nice today" or make a similar such rather banal comment the same as someone who whips out their dick or demands sexual favours for a job or advancement. Slapping someone in the face is not the same as getting a pipe and beating them to a pulp and is viewed differently by the courts and the justice system correctly sentences those crimes differently but not now with "me-too". Everyone is getting fired and taking huge financial and social loses for completely different offenses.

[geotag277]

There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by geotag277

There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.

agreed in full.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by geotag277

There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.

Originally Posted by geotag277

People are acting like the only options for men are to engage in constant vaguely ambiguous rape-y behaviours or be completely celibate. Some of us have found another way.

Agree with these points completely.

It is worth pointing out that the media vetting in Canada may not exist to the same extent in the US, simply due to libel laws. But in cases like Patrick Brown it was vetted extensively over several months, as you said. It's also not a forgone conclusion that those who come forward are doing so for money, fame or what have you. I'm sure it does exist in some cases, but in general for every public comment lauding those coming forward there's one calling for their heads to roll.

From my personal experience with women close to me (friends and girlfriends) I'd say at least 2/3rds experienced some form of sexual harassment in the workplace from someone in a position of power. And I'm not just talking about slightly inappropriate comments. It's easy to say they should have just reported it but if you are in a small company within a close-knit industry that isn't always as easy as it seems. Say, media for instance. There isn't always a faceless HR department to go to and when you accuse a VP of inappropriate behaviour they don't automatically get fired, despite the narrative currently (I do have personal examples of this). The balance of power in the entertainment industry and politics is even more skewed.

I've also relayed some stories from a former roommate of mine who was a family lawyer and represented sexual assault victims. She ended up switching careers because it was so soul destroying. Hearing stories about what you can go through at a police dept to report an assault (rape kits don't sound fun) and then having it simply turn into a long, drawn out "he said, she said" thing in court. And having to advise clients it's not worth going through with things because of that. There are reasons that people did not come forward with things promptly.


As an aside I was going on dates and chatting with women at bars not that long ago. These are not things I've ever worried about.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Agree with these points completely.

It is worth pointing out that the media vetting in Canada may not exist to the same extent in the US, simply due to libel laws. But in cases like Patrick Brown it was vetted extensively over several months, as you said. It's also not a forgone conclusion that those who come forward are doing so for money, fame or what have you. I'm sure it does exist in some cases, but in general for every public comment lauding those coming forward there's one calling for their heads to roll.
.

This is all true but I think we need to decide if as a society if we want the media to increasingly play the role of judge and jury.

The court system is far from perfect in spite of the fact that it is subject to extensive oversight measures that have teeth. No such oversight exists for the media, and even less for social media where a lot of the "rulings" about people are taking place.

I find a bit disturbing the dismissive answer everyone always gives these days which is "sure, he wasn't given a fair trial but everything pointed to him being guilty anyway, so it's no big deal..."

At this point of the whole phenomenon anyone can come out with allegations and the person involved's life and career are for all intents and purposes ruined.

The Patrick Brown case was "vetted" for sure but the Kent Hehr case most definitely was not. In the latter case anyone who follows politics knows he was on thin ice anyway, but I am not sure it would have made much of a difference in the current climate: he would have been out no matter what, just based on a series of tweets.

It did not get much coverage in North America but the case of Carl Sargeant in Wales is a troublesome one.

Word comes out that he groped someone. They won't give him or anyone else outside of a select inner circle (it seems) any details about the allegations. But he still gets sacked and his name gets dragged through the mud. Still no details communicated to him nor made public, and under considerable stress we assume, he commits suicide. Several months after his death it's still totally unclear what this was about, if it was founded or unfounded or worthy of a deeper investigation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sargeant

Now, I have no idea if he did or didn't grope someone. But surely this does show quite clearly the potential dangers of this trend gone wild.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is all true but I think we need to decide if as a society if we want the media to increasingly play the role of judge and jury.

The court system is far from perfect in spite of the fact that it is subject to extensive oversight measures that have teeth. No such oversight exists for the media, and even less for social media where a lot of the "rulings" about people are taking place.

I find a bit disturbing the dismissive answer everyone always gives these days which is "sure, he wasn't given a fair trial but everything pointed to him being guilty anyway, so it's no big deal..."

At this point of the whole phenomenon anyone can come out with allegations and the person involved's life and career are for all intents and purposes ruined.

The Patrick Brown case was "vetted" for sure but the Kent Hehr case most definitely was not. In the latter case anyone who follows politics knows he was on thin ice anyway, but I am not sure it would have made much of a difference in the current climate: he would have been out no matter what, just based on a series of tweets.

It did not get much coverage in North America but the case of Carl Sargeant in Wales is a troublesome one.

Word comes out that he groped someone. They won't give him or anyone else outside of a select inner circle (it seems) any details about the allegations. But he still gets sacked and his name gets dragged through the mud. Still no details communicated to him nor made public, and under considerable stress we assume, he commits suicide. Several months after his death it's still totally unclear what this was about, if it was founded or unfounded or worthy of a deeper investigation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sargeant

Now, I have no idea if he did or didn't grope someone. But surely this does show quite clearly the potential dangers of this trend gone wild.

I don't disagree with any of that, but keep in mind that many of the cases we're hearing about could never go to a court of law. If what is happening is about social change rather than justice then there will be casualties. It would be interesting to know whether the suicide in Wales had any impact on #metoo in the UK.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

.

Good post BTW.

I do think that it's worth pointing out that in a workplace setting where non-illegal stuff like calling women "yummy" can lead to termination of employment, there is a nonetheless a process for investigating these allegations.

It's not exactly "let's gang up on George the Perv" and he's out the door lickety split.

Given the totally random, open potential for "slippage" (looking hard for an English word for dérapage which is like slipping out of control) and the serious consequences on people's lives, it's good that in most places of work there is an established framework for dealing with such things.

I am sorry if some people might see this as making things more difficult for victims to denounce their aggressors. That's certainly not what I want either - as a father, a husband, a son, a brother to a whole bunch of women.

We need to make a serious effort to improve the processes we have - not throw them out the window and replace them with the media (traditional and much less social).

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good post BTW.

I do think that it's worth pointing out that in a workplace setting where non-illegal stuff like calling women "yummy" can lead to termination of employment, there is a nonetheless a process for investigating these allegations.

The problem is that in many cases there isn't, or what exists is simply lip service. Working in the public service there is absolutely a robust system to report things and I know people who have gone through it which resulted in a termination. I imagine things are similar at large corporations as well. The process isn't fun, but it generally works, I think.

But in some organizations / industries this just isn't the case. As I mentioned above I know people who, if they reported what happened, nothing would be likely to happen. And that's kind of a best case scenario - at worst they would become a pariah. I think that's a big part of why things became endemic within certain circles and reached a breaking point where we are now.

I'm not really sure what the solution is, and I don't think it's ideal having the media play the judge and jury. But I understand why we have reached that point. As I mentioned above too, even for cases where a clearly illegal action took place the court system isn't really ideal as it currently exists.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

The problem is that in many cases there isn't, or what exists is simply lip service. Working in the public service there is absolutely a robust system to report things and I know people who have gone through it which resulted in a termination. I imagine things are similar at large corporations as well. The process isn't fun, but it generally works, I think.

But in some organizations / industries this just isn't the case. As I mentioned above I know people who, if they reported what happened, nothing would be likely to happen. And that's kind of a best case scenario - at worst they would become a pariah. I think that's a big part of why things became endemic within certain circles and reached a breaking point where we are now.

I'm not really sure what the solution is, and I don't think it's ideal having the media play the judge and jury. But I understand why we have reached that point. As I mentioned above too, even for cases where a clearly illegal action took place the court system isn't really ideal as it currently exists.

And I also wonder if in spite of the current media frenzy, if people who are victims of harassment in workplaces out of the public eye aren't still going to be left in the lurch with no more options for redress than they had before this all started. It's not as if people are going to yell "stop the presses!" and make headlines with the fact that someone pinched a co-worker's butt at a real estate office in Owen Sound...

I guess today there is the option of denouncing a (former) boss on social media but that's a dangerous game where a person more powerful than you in the community (and the many supporters they might have) can also fire back at you, turn the tables and even ruin your life.

[someone123]

Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by someone123

Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though white males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.

Fixed that for you.

[hipster duck]

^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.

True enough. The Ansari debacle still stuns me given all you mentioned.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous).

I disagree. There were a number of women who refused to join with the accuser because the accusations were so absurd. The only thing we learned about Aziz throughout the entire ordeal was that he is painfully awkward.

I do agree that Cosby was brought down prior to the #metoo movement forming but should probably be included in its leadup.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.

The case against Ansari isn't much. Punishment? Not much to be meted out. Instruction? I think there is a lot to learn from it.

The original handling of the story was awful. The Babe.com article was designed to get Babe.com out there instead of reporting on abuse. It was a case of ethics be damned.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.

and how can anyone forget the case of Jian Ghomeshi?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by someone123

Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.

We've already seen some high profile cases where the victims are male.

[vid]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters.

In the US, there is a statute of limitations on rape and sexual assault (which is absurd and disgusting and slowly changing but it is what it is), an so in many cases, if the assaults happened too long ago, court simply isn't much of an option unless they take the route of suing the accuser for defamation. But even then, it can be quite hard to prove a rape, even if it was violent. It's less difficult today than it was in the 1970s but it's still not an easy task and the process forces the victim to live through the experience over and over again. Women who make accusations of rape, legitimate or not, also face threats from people who support the defendant, and in many cases are forced out of jobs, homes, or away from their hometown entirely.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Right now I think these allegations are probably true as "coming out" is still rather precarious but as time goes on and people are encouraged to bring these men to justice you will inevitably start getting women {or men} who see nothing but dollar signs in front of them or just want to get their name in the papers, or use it as a bargaining chip for wage increases or hiring..........give me what I want or I'll go public with an event that never happened and you will pay the price, economically and socially.

Name someone who has gotten what they want by accusing someone of rape. And regardless, that is extortion and the victim in that case can charge them with that and it can all play out in court. Innocent until proven guilty.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system. Right now everyone is being fired from their jobs left, right, and centre but is that fair? Is that just?

Neither. It's expedient. Same reason racists get fired: having notorious people on your staff is a financial liability, or in politics, it's a political liability. If Patrick Brown or Kent Hehr hadn't stepped down, it would have hurt the parties' reputations, not just their own reputations. Look at what happened last month in Alabama's special senate election.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Currently we are treating someone who may just say "you look nice today" or make a similar such rather banal comment the same as someone who whips out their dick or demands sexual favours for a job or advancement.

What they're saying isn't as simply as a single "you look nice today", women aren't risking their own reputation and safety because a man told them they look nice today. Take a moment to look up the kinds of things men say to women, it's far worse than "you look nice today".

It's not the same as whipping our your dick or forcing yourself on someone, but they're both on the wrong side of the line. Murdering someone is worse than breaking into someone's house when they're not home, but both are crime and if a politician did either of those, they'd still be out on their ass either way.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Slapping someone in the face is not the same as getting a pipe and beating them to a pulp and is viewed differently by the courts and the justice system correctly sentences those crimes differently but not now with "me-too". Everyone is getting fired and taking huge financial and social loses for completely different offenses.

True, the punishment for actually raping someone should be prison, not "will spend a week in rehab for non-disclosed behavioural issues".

This is all still fairly recent, there's a chance some or even many of the men who have been accused over the past year will come back later on in some way.

Originally Posted by geotag277

There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.

I actually agree with you for once. This is what, twice in a year?

Originally Posted by someone123

Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.

As an inter-sectional feminist, I strongly share this sentiment. Sexual assault is very common in the gay community (where men are both perpetrators and victims, and can be in both roles at the same time) and there is also the sexual assault of young men and boys by adult women that often is responded to with sentiments like "lucky kid!" or "I wish I were him!" But I've met men who were that kid, and they didn't feel lucky. (I've never met Emmanuel Macron, though, so obviously experiences vary.) I actually know about a female pedophile luring boys in my neighbourhood and let me tell you, this idea that society (and therefore police) hold that men can't be victims or that young men sexually abused by older women are "lucky" is making the process of actually holding her responsible somewhat difficult. The #metoo movement needs to include non-female victims as well, or it's just going to be ignored by the people who need to hear it most. Women are the most frequent victims but they're not the only victims, and men aren't the only perpetrators.

Also, it's amazing how little most of society understands about communication and consent. I've seen a lot of women sharing conversations through Facebook recently when a man starts of telling them they're beautiful, after they thank him for the compliment he starts pressuring them to have a sexual relationship with him, and if they reject it, he turns into their weird Dr. Jeckell/Mr. Hyde thing that alternates between telling the women "I love you so much you can't understand" and "You're ugly and deserved to be raped". And this isn't isolated, I've seen comments like this for years and it's just getting more and more common now as this movement spreads.

It reminds me of a few years ago, one member on this site sent photos of his anus to a bunch of men and started insulting them when they told him they didn't want to see it. What do they honestly think the response will be when they do that?? My mom's Facebook profile picture is our cat, there isn't a single photo of her on her page, but she gets several messages from anonymous men every month telling her she's beautiful and they want to have sex with her. One time when I had my Giada de Laurentiis avatar some random guy from Alabama sent me a PM calling me beautiful, like, what? I'm going to travel 500 miles and fuck him? He honestly thought that I was her and choose a photo of "me" squeezing tomatoes to represent "myself" on a discussion board? Fuck some people are just stupid.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think it's about time we talked about this issue as it now has gone from the entertainment and business realm into the halls of power in our political institutions.

I am very glad that this issue is finally coming to light and these men are getting their just rewards. It's not {like rape} a sexual issue as much as it is one of power and men still run our world.

I do have 2 main concerns however about the me-too movement. First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters. Right now I think these allegations are probably true as "coming out" is still rather precarious but as time goes on and people are encouraged to bring these men to justice you will inevitably start getting women {or men} who see nothing but dollar signs in front of them or just want to get their name in the papers, or use it as a bargaining chip for wage increases or hiring..........give me what I want or I'll go public with an event that never happened and you will pay the price, economically and socially.

Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system. Right now everyone is being fired from their jobs left, right, and centre but is that fair? Is that just? Currently we are treating someone who may just say "you look nice today" or make a similar such rather banal comment the same as someone who whips out their dick or demands sexual favours for a job or advancement. Slapping someone in the face is not the same as getting a pipe and beating them to a pulp and is viewed differently by the courts and the justice system correctly sentences those crimes differently but not now with "me-too". Everyone is getting fired and taking huge financial and social loses for completely different offenses.

I think many would share your concerns but many of the cases we're hearing about would never make it to or through the justice system. And even if they did, the justice system has not exactly crowned itself in glory with the way it deals with sexual assault, although things seem to be improving. I don't know where it's leading but at the moment it's at least as much about change as it is about justice.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I think many would share your concerns but many of the cases we're hearing about would never make it to or through the justice system. And even if they did, the justice system has not exactly crowned itself in glory with the way it deals with sexual assault, although things seem to be improving. I don't know where it's leading but at the moment it's at least as much about change as it is about justice.

Some recent history:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...wyer-1.4401191