Centennial Mills Redevelopment | Proposed

[DMH]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

It shouldn’t shock you. This city doesn’t utilize its river for shops, cafes, restaurants and bars well at all.

This is another prime example. Why they are choosing to face a busy street is beyond me.. Ah well

You fail to cite the earliest example of riverfront retail: Riverplace in the 1980's. While Riverplace can be lively in the summer, it is usually dead in the winter. Many shops & restaurants cannot survive the seasonal lack of business. How many on this platform recall the floating restaurant Newport Bay?? It appears to be vacant & unused today.

Furthermore, even more storefront shops, restaurants, and bars need to be arrayed along the riverfront so there would be critical mass for continued pedestrian energy. But we must face the fact that most of Portland's Downtown faces Waterfront Park, which will never be plowed under to create a shop- and restaurant-lined riverfront.

Continuing, retail development along Portland's Willamette requires careful consideration of pedestrian connections. Riverplace has long been a bit too remote and unconnected to other Downtown nodes of activity. So for the Centennial Mill redevelopment with retail near the river to succeed, there must be a pedestrian bridge to the Pearl District.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by DMH

You fail to cite the earliest example of riverfront retail: Riverplace in the 1980's. While Riverplace can be lively in the summer, it is usually dead in the winter. Many shops & restaurants cannot survive the seasonal lack of business. How many on this platform recall the floating restaurant Newport Bay?? It appears to be vacant & unused today.

Furthermore, even more storefront shops, restaurants, and bars need to be arrayed along the riverfront so there would be critical mass for continued pedestrian energy. But we must face the fact that most of Portland's Downtown faces Waterfront Park, which will never be plowed under to create a shop- and restaurant-lined riverfront.

Continuing, retail development along Portland's Willamette requires careful consideration of pedestrian connections. Riverplace has long been a bit too remote and unconnected to other Downtown nodes of activity. So for the Centennial Mill redevelopment with retail near the river to succeed, there must be a pedestrian bridge to the Pearl District.

Look what happened to south waterfront, nothing along the river. And now with this proposal we’re shying away from the river. Vancouver Washington hit a homerun with how they designed their waterfront

[pdxsg34]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

Look what happened to south waterfront, nothing along the river. And now with this proposal we’re shying away from the river. Vancouver Washington hit a homerun with how they designed their waterfront

Another classic corbin vancouver waterfront take

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by pdxsg34

Another classic corbin vancouver waterfront take

I mean it’s kinda relatable on a good copy we could do..

[Bigtimecharlie]

I agree Vancouver really nailed their waterfront. I’ve never been a fan of Riverplace. There’s the “boardwalk” area, which is fine. But the condo development is like a fortress. Impenetrable. It always seemed to me that it would have been better to build that area with a street grid that would allow shops, restaurants and foot traffic generally throughout the entire area. I always thought San Francisco’s marina district would have been a better model. That would have helped to breathe life into the area year round. Vancouver’s waterfront is much more like that and infinitely better.

[FiveOverPun]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

Look what happened to south waterfront, nothing along the river. And now with this proposal we’re shying away from the river. Vancouver Washington hit a homerun with how they designed their waterfront

I live right by Centennial Mills, so I'd LOVE if we could do something like this, but I think the sad truth is that nothing alongside this property has anything remotely like it going on. And worse, this section of Naito is very disconnected from the surrounding neighborhood.

I think, even if they put something like that in, because it would just be this small area that has pretty low foot traffic, it'd all fail anyway.

"A lightly used walking path" is probably the best realistic option, unfortunately.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by Bigtimecharlie

I agree Vancouver really nailed their waterfront. I’ve never been a fan of Riverplace. There’s the “boardwalk” area, which is fine. But the condo development is like a fortress. Impenetrable. It always seemed to me that it would have been better to build that area with a street grid that would allow shops, restaurants and foot traffic generally throughout the entire area. I always thought San Francisco’s marina district would have been a better model. That would have helped to breathe life into the area year round. Vancouver’s waterfront is much more like that and infinitely better.

Exactly. Infinitely better is an understatement. All Portland planners have to do is drive 15 min north and take a look. Tiny town Vancouver is even beating us to a world class food market like pike place market in Seattle right on their waterfront that’s opening in a few years.

I really don’t understand why Portland makes this so hard on themselves

[DMH]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

Exactly. Infinitely better is an understatement. All Portland planners have to do is drive 15 min north and take a look. Tiny town Vancouver is even beating us to a world class food market like pike place market in Seattle right on their waterfront that’s opening in a few years.

I really don’t understand why Portland makes this so hard on themselves

Please be realistic and suggest a Downtown Portland riverfront site that would be able to replicate Vancouver WA's successful waterfront. From the Steel Bridge to Riverplace, there is no land, unless you dream of bulldozing Tom McCall Waterfront Park.

At this point, we can hope for active, pedestrian-friendly riverfront development to occur as a part of the OMSI master plan proposal, the remaining Westside properties just south of the Marquam Bridge where OHSU has a foothold (and land ownership, I believe), and the parking lots and Louis Dreyfus grain silos west of the Moda Center. Can you think of any others?

The City of Portland does not own or control any of these properties.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by DMH

Please be realistic and suggest a Downtown Portland riverfront site that would be able to replicate Vancouver WA's successful waterfront. From the Steel Bridge to Riverplace, there is no land, unless you dream of bulldozing Tom McCall Waterfront Park.

At this point, we can hope for active, pedestrian-friendly riverfront development to occur as a part of the OMSI master plan proposal, the remaining Westside properties just south of the Marquam Bridge where OHSU has a foothold (and land ownership, I believe), and the parking lots and Louis Dreyfus grain silos west of the Moda Center. Can you think of any others?

The City of Portland does not own or control any of these properties.

I meant those options you listed. And how Portland in general ruined a great opportunity with our river

[DMH]

Originally Posted by DMH

Please be realistic and suggest a Downtown Portland riverfront site that would be able to replicate Vancouver WA's successful waterfront. From the Steel Bridge to Riverplace, there is no land, unless you dream of bulldozing Tom McCall Waterfront Park.

At this point, we can hope for active, pedestrian-friendly riverfront development to occur as a part of the OMSI master plan proposal, the remaining Westside properties just south of the Marquam Bridge where OHSU has a foothold (and land ownership, I believe), and the parking lots and Louis Dreyfus grain silos west of the Moda Center. Can you think of any others?

The City of Portland does not own or control any of these properties.

I was curious about the origins of the Vancouver waterfront development so I did some research. Here is a short explanation of the collaboration:

The City of Vancouver, Vancouver Parks and Recreation Department, State of Washington, Columbia Waterfront LLC, Gramor Development, Inc., Port of Vancouver, and BNSF Railway formed a relationship to create this over $2 billion public-private project.
Infrastructure broke ground – November 2015.

Maybe the collaboration of parties involved in the OMSI master plan could be an approximate example of what kind of group effort could activate Portland's waterfront. However OMSI buildings and Portland Opera's Hampton Center take up most of the river frontage.

The combined riverfront OHSU and Zidell properties south of the Marquam Bridge do offer a chance to have an active waterfront development, but I wonder of OHSU and Zidell agree. Handled with urban design care, a stronger pedestrian connection to Riverplace could give the river frontage an energetic boost.

I believe that the parking lots west of the Moda Center are owned by Paul Allen's estate. The strip of land is narrow, offering maybe too little land to be worth it, but wasn't there a proposal to span over N. Interstate from the Coliseum to the vacant land?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

Look what happened to south waterfront, nothing along the river. And now with this proposal we’re shying away from the river. Vancouver Washington hit a homerun with how they designed their waterfront

I am gonna go out on a limb and say the residents that live in South Waterfront are okay with having a quiet waterfront where they can enjoy. It is honestly a very peaceful waterfront and I have found myself relaxing there from time to time when on a bike ride.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by DMH

Please be realistic and suggest a Downtown Portland riverfront site that would be able to replicate Vancouver WA's successful waterfront. From the Steel Bridge to Riverplace, there is no land, unless you dream of bulldozing Tom McCall Waterfront Park.

At this point, we can hope for active, pedestrian-friendly riverfront development to occur as a part of the OMSI master plan proposal, the remaining Westside properties just south of the Marquam Bridge where OHSU has a foothold (and land ownership, I believe), and the parking lots and Louis Dreyfus grain silos west of the Moda Center. Can you think of any others?

The City of Portland does not own or control any of these properties.

I would like to see development along the west side of Naito that focuses on adding residents to downtown and commercial space along Naito to help create a more pedestrian active street that is connected to the waterfront park.

I always feel like the whole "why can't Portland be more like Vancouver" people tend to forget Portland has a good size downtown connected to it's waterfront that is full of activity when it's at its fullest potential, where any block can be something going on.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by CorbinWarrick

I really don’t understand why Portland makes this so hard on themselves

You don't understand because:

You don't live in Portland.
You don't regularly spend time in the area you're talking about.
You don't know even the basics about urban planning.
You don't understand people.

This particular site is a challenge because, despite the fact that on your computer screen it looks like it's in the Pearl District, it's not. It's separated by Naito. It's separated by railroads. It's pushed further away by a large (but wonderful) park. So foot traffic is going to be zero. The only people coming and going from the site will be people who live in whatever housing gets built there and that wouldn't be enough for the kind of project you want to see even if they built 1,500ft skyscrapers there, which isn't going to happen anywhere in this city in your lifetime no matter how much you complain.

If only you understood even the most bare bones basics about... well... anything.

In order for Portland to become the city you want it to be, you'd need a time machine so you could go back at least a hundred years to prevent building of the roads that eventually led to the highway which is now Naito which cut off the city from the river, which led to building away from the river rather than toward it. If such a time machine existed, I would go back to 2009 and buy Bitcoin, and then I'd go back to when I-5 was being planned so I could beat the holy hell out of everyone involved. But I can't change time and neither can you, so it's time to accept the city for what it is and suggest changes that are possible rather than endlessly whine and snipe and complain about what is not possible.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I would like to see development along the west side of Naito that focuses on adding residents to downtown and commercial space along Naito to help create a more pedestrian active street that is connected to the waterfront park.

Absolutely. I really hope to see more residential development throughout downtown, especially along 1st/2nd/etc, the Goodman lots, and so on. There's so much potential. Naito is always going to be a challenge because of the way it cuts off Waterfront Park, but filling in more of the gaps in that direction would do wonders for making the city even more pedestrian friendly, and even more vibrant.

[DMH]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Absolutely. I really hope to see more residential development throughout downtown, especially along 1st/2nd/etc, the Goodman lots, and so on. There's so much potential. Naito is always going to be a challenge because of the way it cuts off Waterfront Park, but filling in more of the gaps in that direction would do wonders for making the city even more pedestrian friendly, and even more vibrant.

I agree completely with this discussion's vision of a filled-in, active west side of SW Naito Parkway. Many cities have major boulevards along their waterfronts. Examples might be Promenade des Anglais along the Mediterranean beach in Nice, France or the Victoria Embankment along the Thames River in London. In their own ways, the cities make the best of those frontages.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

You don't understand because:

You don't live in Portland.
You don't regularly spend time in the area you're talking about.
You don't know even the basics about urban planning.
You don't understand people.

This particular site is a challenge because, despite the fact that on your computer screen it looks like it's in the Pearl District, it's not. It's separated by Naito. It's separated by railroads. It's pushed further away by a large (but wonderful) park. So foot traffic is going to be zero. The only people coming and going from the site will be people who live in whatever housing gets built there and that wouldn't be enough for the kind of project you want to see even if they built 1,500ft skyscrapers there, which isn't going to happen anywhere in this city in your lifetime no matter how much you complain.

If only you understood even the most bare bones basics about... well... anything.

In order for Portland to become the city you want it to be, you'd need a time machine so you could go back at least a hundred years to prevent building of the roads that eventually led to the highway which is now Naito which cut off the city from the river, which led to building away from the river rather than toward it. If such a time machine existed, I would go back to 2009 and buy Bitcoin, and then I'd go back to when I-5 was being planned so I could beat the holy hell out of everyone involved. But I can't change time and neither can you, so it's time to accept the city for what it is and suggest changes that are possible rather than endlessly whine and snipe and complain about what is not possible.

Damn you got me there. Your right. We’re just stuck with this Portland.

[downtownpdx]

I'd love to see the ohsu property with some waterfront restaurants. I know the river place floating Newport Bay hasn't done well... but perhaps it's a design thing. Lots of floor to ceiling windows facing the skyline and outdoor seating along the water seems like a winning concept, where the shoreline juts out with an amazing view to north to downtown. If I'm not mistaken that NB restaurant is very closed in on itself, few windows, and even the patio seating feels (felt) cramped and awkward. Look at Sally's on the Columbia on Marine Dive - always busy because it has great views from almost every table. Not exactly a thriving residential area right there either, so these things can happen without 10,000 people living right there. But ohsu does have the added benefit of a growing south portland population.

[CorbinWarrick]

Originally Posted by downtownpdx

I'd love to see the ohsu property with some waterfront restaurants. I know the river place floating Newport Bay hasn't done well... but perhaps it's a design thing. Lots of floor to ceiling windows facing the skyline and outdoor seating along the water seems like a winning concept, where the shoreline juts out with an amazing view to north to downtown. If I'm not mistaken that NB restaurant is very closed in on itself, few windows, and even the patio seating feels (felt) cramped and awkward. Look at Sally's on the Columbia on Marine Dive - always busy because it has great views from almost every table. Not exactly a thriving residential area right there either, so these things can happen without 10,000 people living right there. But ohsu does have the added benefit of a growing south portland population.

Well said. It can be done. But it’s frowned upon here

[sopdx]

Originally Posted by downtownpdx

I'd love to see the ohsu property with some waterfront restaurants. I know the river place floating Newport Bay hasn't done well... but perhaps it's a design thing. Lots of floor to ceiling windows facing the skyline and outdoor seating along the water seems like a winning concept, where the shoreline juts out with an amazing view to north to downtown. If I'm not mistaken that NB restaurant is very closed in on itself, few windows, and even the patio seating feels (felt) cramped and awkward. Look at Sally's on the Columbia on Marine Dive - always busy because it has great views from almost every table. Not exactly a thriving residential area right there either, so these things can happen without 10,000 people living right there. But ohsu does have the added benefit of a growing south portland population.

In Lyon, France, a river city like Portland, they have barges along the river bank with restaurants and bars on them. In Paris, they have created beaches on the Seine also using barges.

I believe the City of Portland historically, has frowned on river docks etc... because they potentially harbor predatory fish that feast on Salmon.

[DMH]

Originally Posted by sopdx

In Lyon, France, a river city like Portland, they have barges along the river bank with restaurants and bars on them. In Paris, they have created beaches on the Seine also using barges.

I believe the City of Portland historically, has frowned on river docks etc... because they potentially harbor predatory fish that feast on Salmon.

I think that any business or public entity that wants to build anything onto or into the Willamette River will hit a wall of regulations by multiple public agencies, City, State, and Federal.