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  #5761  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 8:13 PM
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It says here that Evergreen was only 3 months late, and under budget.
http://vancouversun.com/news/local-n...-says-province
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  #5762  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 8:20 PM
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I think everything seems to be behind. Putting up the ceiling panels looks super slow compared to how they clad other buildings. I wonder if there's just a shortage of skilled workers with all the construction all over Ontario?
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  #5763  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I think everything seems to be behind. Putting up the ceiling panels looks super slow compared to how they clad other buildings. I wonder if there's just a shortage of skilled workers with all the construction all over Ontario?
They seem to be moving slowly with a lot of the stations. They Eastern stations (which have been under construction since 2015) are still not complete.
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  #5764  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 9:07 PM
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From what I've seen passing by the eastern stations daily, it seems like nothing happens for months, and then within a week, huge progress. I think that because the tunnel was delayed, tehy had to push back everything else so that the trades can come in and do all of their work within weeks instead of small-ish contracts, one station at a time.
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  #5765  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 9:10 PM
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Confedration Line tunnel from the City of Ottawa's Facebook, including some amazing progress on Lyon. I never think of checking there, but I'm glad I did today.

Lyon


compared to original rendering


Parliament


Running tunnel

https://www.facebook.com/cityofottawa/

Last edited by J.OT13; Dec 16, 2017 at 4:36 AM.
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  #5766  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by McC View Post
It says here that Evergreen was only 3 months late, and under budget.
http://vancouversun.com/news/local-n...-says-province
It was only 3 months behind the revised date. The original promise was 2014, then it became fall 2016, then it was going to be 2017, then they opened it in December 2016. It might have been on budget though, the other two weren't.
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  #5767  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 3:47 AM
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RTG unlikely to complete Confederation LRT Line by May 2018 deadline

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: December 15, 2017 | Last Updated: December 15, 2017 7:17 PM EST


The consortium building Ottawa’s Confederation LRT Line will not meet its contractual obligation to turn over the keys in May 2018.

In its $2.1-billion contract with the city, Rideau Transit Group agreed to a so-called revenue service availability date of May 24, 2018. This doesn’t mean trains would go into service on that date. Instead, it signifies the system would be ready for OC Transpo to assume control and complete the necessary tests required to get trains ready for passengers.

But late last month, RTG officials informed the city there’s a good chance the company may need an extension due a variety of circumstances, including delays caused by the June 2016 sinkhole on Rideau Street.

“The date is moving. We don’t know exactly when and we’re mapping that out with RTG,” transportation services general manager John Manconi said Friday at a city hall briefing.

Mayor Jim Watson and city manager Steve Kanellakos were advised of the development immediately, Manconi said, while the chairs of the transit and transportation committees were told this week. The rest of council officially learned Friday, though only two attended the briefing.

The city has asked RTG for a revised schedule and a firm completion date that doesn’t compromise the time required for OC Transpo to test the 12.5-kilometre light-rail line between Blair station and Tunney’s Pasture.

“In other words, we’re not going to compress those days and weeks of testing to make up any time that’s associated with getting the schedule to the state we both agree to,” Manconi said.

He maintained residents should still expect to board the train sometime next year. In fact, the 2018 budget, approved this week, forecasts some budgetary savings “based on a mid-year opening of the Confederation Line.”

“In terms of a date for when the city decides to put the train into service, we have said all along and continue to say our current forecast is that the train will be put in service in 2018.”

Without using the word “penalties,” Manconi said the city has measures in place to protect taxpayers should RTG miss its deadline.

Financial disincentives at the city’s discretion include deferring milestones and withholding monthly service payments to RTG, he said. “There’s no incentive for RTG to drag this out.”

RTG’s technical director Peter Lauch wouldn’t say how much extra time the company needs to complete its work. “We need to have the discussion with the city first,” he said.

The initial timeline was reasonable, he said, but didn’t take into considerations incidents like the June 2016 sinkhole, which stalled construction. “The ramifications of the sinkhole had an affect,” Lauch said.

Once a new revenue service availability date is agreed on, exactly how long the city will need for testing is not something Manconi would speculate on. Some of the necessary changes are already underway, such as route and fare changes, driver training and utilization of a stretch of test track between Blair station and the University of Ottawa.

“You don’t wait for the end,” Manconi said.

“There’s a bunch of systems that all talk to each other and are integrated, and need to be tested and commissioned and included in what’s called trial running.”

The briefing also included construction highlights.

Twenty of the total 25 kilometres of dual track have been completed, including one kilometre of track in the 2.5-km tunnel underneath downtown.

Of the 34 LRT vehicles to be assembled at the plant on Belfast Road, 20 are done and work is now underway on five additional vehicles.

In the coming months, RTG will finish the tunnel, all 13 stations and the overhead wiring needed to power the trains.

OC Transpo, meanwhile, will continue its Ready for Rail public education campaign, implement route changes, and manage the transition for employees, some of whom will be laid off.

mpearson@postmedia.com
twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-2018-deadline
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  #5768  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 1:39 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
From what I've seen passing by the eastern stations daily, it seems like nothing happens for months, and then within a week, huge progress. I think that because the tunnel was delayed, tehy had to push back everything else so that the trades can come in and do all of their work within weeks instead of small-ish contracts, one station at a time.
I can't see a reason why the sinkhole or the tunnel could have delayed or continue to slow down the construction of the at-grade stations, though. Different set of trades, and from the looks of it there isn't a shortage of work to be done. Compared to most buildings these are more like huge elaborate umbrellas made largely out of parts fabricated off-site. Looks more like a labour or material supply issue to me. Another possibility would be problems in the design approval stage, which tends to snowball and push schedules off. If this somehow involves the city being slow in signing off, it might give RTG a valid excuse for these delays without penalties.

In hindsight, the Queensway widening seemed to have happened in lightning speed, maybe MTO was better in letting the contractors do their job.
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  #5769  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I can't see a reason why the sinkhole or the tunnel could have delayed or continue to slow down the construction of the at-grade stations, though. Different set of trades, and from the looks of it there isn't a shortage of work to be done. Compared to most buildings these are more like huge elaborate umbrellas made largely out of parts fabricated off-site. Looks more like a labour or material supply issue to me. Another possibility would be problems in the design approval stage, which tends to snowball and push schedules off. If this somehow involves the city being slow in signing off, it might give RTG a valid excuse for these delays without penalties.

In hindsight, the Queensway widening seemed to have happened in lightning speed, maybe MTO was better in letting the contractors do their job.
I wonder if the fixed price has something to do with it. The general contractor is less likely to pay for supplies to be expediated, pay for overtime, etc. The auditor found the city didn't supervise contracts very well. I wonder if this is an example.
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  #5770  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 6:27 PM
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I have a couple of friends working on the project. There are lots of delays caused by contractor screw-ups we never hear about. Of course everyone involved blames the City and every other trade for the problems
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  #5771  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 6:45 PM
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They seem to be moving slowly with a lot of the stations. They Eastern stations (which have been under construction since 2015) are still not complete.
I think the reason why the eastern stations seem to have been stuck at ~90% complete for months is because they're deliberately working much slower than they can be. All of them look to be in a state where if they worked ahead at full speed, they could be fully finished in about six weeks. So here's my guess/prediction: they're basically abandoning those sites, reallocating the labour to the tunnel and west end where they're further behind, and then two months before the handover date, they'll resume full-speed work on the eastern stations.

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Or if there is penalty money. Staff told the media there were penalties associated with not meeting Canada Day target to have surface construction done, and then there weren't any penalties at all.
There was a penalty that kicked in over Canada Day. The city and RTG negotiated that in lieu of a financial penalty, RTG would pay for the cost of temporarily shutting down & cleaning up worksites for Canada Day.

The contract isn't public so I have no idea how big the penalties will be if handover is delayed past May 24. We can guess at how it will be used though. Because the LRT is going to reduce OC's operating costs by a fair amount, and because there's extra cost associated with running the detours, any delay in LRT opening beyond what's planned would increase OC Transpo's operating budget. Covering that gap is probably the first thing the city would do with that penalty money. If the penalty money exceeds the size of that gap, I'm curious what the city would do with the rest. Throw it in a infrastructure reserve fund perhaps?

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I wonder if the fixed price has something to do with it. The general contractor is less likely to pay for supplies to be expediated, pay for overtime, etc. The auditor found the city didn't supervise contracts very well. I wonder if this is an example.
Because of the nature of the fixed price contract, RTG gets zero benefit from being done early, but they do have penalties owed for being late. However.. they also are liable for maintenance for 30 years at a fixed price as well. So they definitely have a strong motivation to avoid cutting corners to accelerate the opening date (a tactic that is commonly done with a lot of public projects). RTG might have done the math and determined that the use of lots of overtime work to complete the project could (through shoddier construction) create the risk of a large repair liability 20 years down the road that is not worth the few million it would save on delay penalties. Potential delays notwithstanding, RTG has done pretty well on this contract and I think a key part of it is the P3 element, which makes city involvement unimportant/unnecessary.
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  #5772  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post

There was a penalty that kicked in over Canada Day. The city and RTG negotiated that in lieu of a financial penalty, RTG would pay for the cost of temporarily shutting down & cleaning up worksites for Canada Day.
That isn't what city officials told the media.

http://www.obj.ca/article/no-penalti...ada-day-target
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  #5773  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 10:14 PM
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If they aren't going to make Canada Day, hopefully, they can get into service by Labour Day. In time to service the universities.
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  #5774  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2017, 7:18 AM
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It was only 3 months behind the revised date. The original promise was 2014, then it became fall 2016, then it was going to be 2017, then they opened it in December 2016. It might have been on budget though, the other two weren't.
That's not the context. It wasn't funded for 2014. It was only 3 months behind it's construction schedule. If that's your standard, using the "promise" date versus the schedule once construction has started, then it was supposed to open in 2004 as the second phase of the Millenium Line.
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  #5775  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2017, 3:40 AM
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If they aren't going to make Canada Day, hopefully, they can get into service by Labour Day. In time to service the universities.
I would love to see them at least open up a portion for Canada Day. Maybe shuttle people between Hurdman and Bayview to disperse the crowds. Not likely at this point I'm sure.
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  #5776  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2017, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonA View Post
That's not the context. It wasn't funded for 2014. It was only 3 months behind it's construction schedule. If that's your standard, using the "promise" date versus the schedule once construction has started, then it was supposed to open in 2004 as the second phase of the Millenium Line.
I'm not trying to get into an argument over details of the evergreen line, especially since I'm working from faded memory, the point was that there's often big delays with these projects so if we're only a few months late we're doing pretty well, which I guess was true of the evergreen line too
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  #5777  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2017, 11:08 PM
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Interesting article

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...dget-1.4454452

"Frustrated councillors left in dark over LRT delay"
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  #5778  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2017, 12:16 AM
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A random thought occurred to me today:

If it were up to me- coinciding with extending the LRT to Kanata I would turn the Confederation Line into a fully automated system.


Hopefully, with construction starting immediately after Stage Two in 2023, we could see a fully automated Confederation Line by 2028.

Ideally with the savings in operation being ploughed back into the feeder bus network.


Also if it were up to me- Barrhaven should be serviced by BRT until after we see two crosstowns built: the Carling LRT and Baseline BRT corridors.
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  #5779  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2017, 2:07 PM
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If it were up to me- coinciding with extending the LRT to Kanata I would turn the Confederation Line into a fully automated system.

Hopefully, with construction starting immediately after Stage Two in 2023, we could see a fully automated Confederation Line by 2028.

Ideally with the savings in operation being ploughed back into the feeder bus network.
My guess is it is a union issue. The union is taking a big hit as it is as one train replaces 8-10 buses (and drivers). Going automated would likely be part of a union negotiation. It wouldn't surprise me if the city uses automation as a way of gaining public support the next time there is a transit strike. The trains could potentially still run even when the drivers are striking, allowing many people to still use transit to travel the bulk of their commute even if they have to find an alternate way of getting to and from the station.

Quote:
Also if it were up to me- Barrhaven should be serviced by BRT until after we see two crosstowns built: the Carling LRT and Baseline BRT corridors.
I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but I am curious what your rationale for that is. If it weren't for the high cost of building between Knoxdale and Huntclub, I would rank say a Barrhaven extension should be built before Kanata. Regardless, the Barrhaven extension should be timed with the rail grade separation at Fallowfield, Woodroffe and the Transitway (they should build an LRT bridge not a transitway bridge).
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  #5780  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2017, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
My guess is it is a union issue. The union is taking a big hit as it is as one train replaces 8-10 buses (and drivers). Going automated would likely be part of a union negotiation. It wouldn't surprise me if the city uses automation as a way of gaining public support the next time there is a transit strike. The trains could potentially still run even when the drivers are striking, allowing many people to still use transit to travel the bulk of their commute even if they have to find an alternate way of getting to and from the station.
I'm struggling mightily to understand why the interests of Public Sector employees over-rules the actual Public.

Who is running the city (and province for that matter)?? The representatives elected by the people? or the Public Sector Unions?
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