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  #81  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 3:23 PM
brian_b brian_b is offline
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
no, but there's a running joke in new york that "our winters weren't bad enough, so we built chicago."

it means nothing from an investment standpoint. just a bar joke.
New York was founded by the Dutch and taken over by the British.
Chicago was founded by the French and taken over by capitalists.
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 5:28 PM
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I'm about to visit Chicago in a few weeks. The fourth of July weekend made national headlines because of gun violence in the city. It was brought to my attention from a few people I know, none of whom live in Chicago, or Illinois. This violence will always be a drag on Chicago's world class city status, and sadly it still has not been solved.
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mind field View Post
I'm about to visit Chicago in a few weeks. The fourth of July weekend made national headlines because of gun violence in the city. It was brought to my attention from a few people I know, none of whom live in Chicago, or Illinois. This violence will always be a drag on Chicago's world class city status, and sadly it still has not been solved.
Well, but that gun violence is in areas of the city that, frankly, you will never visit.

It's like choosing to not visit Times Square because of a series of shootings out in Queens.

Having said that, I do agree that Chicago must address the crime problem somehow, but I have no idea what the solution is.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Well, but that gun violence is in areas of the city that, frankly, you will never visit.

It's like choosing to not visit Times Square because of a series of shootings out in Queens.

Having said that, I do agree that Chicago must address the crime problem somehow, but I have no idea what the solution is.
Yes, I'm well aware that the violence is largely confined to the south side. It won't stop me from visiting Chicago, and it seems so far it hasn't affected the tourism industry as the numbers are continually increasing year over year. But imagine if the same level of investment that happens on the north side of the city also happened on the south side. Gun violence, gangs, and extreme poverty are a drag on a significant portion of the city. Perhaps for one reason or another, investment and gentrification will begin to transform the south side. Maybe it's already happening?
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Chicago won't ever follow NYC's trajectory. The South is the future for business and population growth and the NE is safe due to historical/trade reasons and NYC's presense. Chicago needs to find a way to make itself an appealing destination for tourism I believe as the future of business is the South.
The South is growing for two reasons:

1) Still benefiting from the invention of inexpensive air conditioning.
2) Their economies are still relatively depressed compared to the rest of the country, meaning wages are lower. Far lower in some categories.

As the South develops, their wages will equalize with the midwest and they will have to try to attract higher-skill jobs at the same wage levels as the Great Lakes region. Tax differentials are not nearly as big as some people make them out to be. Weather is rarely an issue for industry. People are the biggest question in most industries, and transportation is a big issue for many industries. Chicago has great people and among the best transportation in the country.

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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
I don't see it as an inernational hub of investment due to the winters. If it reinvents it's image, addresses South African style segregation and crime, and develops some 'sex appeal' based on some cultural developments, I think it will have a brighter future.
Chicago is already an international hub of investment. It is not in the same level as New York, but is is far bigger than you apparently know about due to your own ignorance.

When it comes to investment, crime is a regional question and the Chicago region crime levels are actually better than most other American cities, including New York.

Your comment about segregation is appallingly stupid. It's worse than just ignorant, it's flat-out stupid. So stupid, in fact, that it's insulting to the black South Africans who know what South African segregation was and is like. Chicago is NOT more segregated than New York. Statistically it is every bit as integrated as New York and more other industrial Great Lakes cities. The kind of racism and segregation in South Africa is nothing like what happens in any of the American "Rust Belt." It's appalling that you would compare them and reeks of your own prejudice and idiocy and ignorance about the history of South Africa.

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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Cultural, artistic, etc is a good way for a city to become vibrant and reinvent itself. Great architecture can help, look at Bilbao. So, become hipster I suppose. Copy Brand Brookyn, etc.. Everyone loves a good hipster town.
Chicago is far, far more than Bilbao ever will be. Being "heard of" like Bilbao is hardly a problem Chicago needs to solve.

Parts of Chicago are very hipster. Chicago could use more more contemporary architecture of note, although it has enormously important and relevant historic architecture, which is well-known around the world among people who like architecture for more than just seeing the latest flash.

Culturally, Chicago arguably has museums that, in the U.S., put it behind only New York and Washington (due to the national museums and Smithsonian) in importance. The Art Institute has vast, important collections. The Field Museum is one of the most important museums of natural history not only for its collection but for the role it plays in research. The University of Chicago is very important in sociology and archeology and, of course, economics. The Museum of Science and Industry is possibly the best of its kind in the U.S. There are dozens of lesser-known museums that are very good in their space, including the Museum of Contemporary Art, the Dusable Museum - one of the premier museums dedicated to African-American art, the National Museum of Mexican Art, the Ukrainian National Museum, the Ukrainian Institute of Modern Art, the Smart Museum, the Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum, the Adler Planetarium, the Shedd Aquarium, the Museum of Surgical Science, the Oriental Institute, Chicago History Museum, National Hellenic Museum, Spertus Institute, Italian-American Sports Hall of Fame, Mitchell Museum of the American Indian, Museum of Broadcast Communications, Museum of Leather, and many others.

There are also non-museum cultural attractions, including the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which is one of the best orchestras in the world - just ask any fan of classical music or professional classical musician, the Civic Opera, the Garfield Park Conservatory, the Architecture Foundation, the Chicago Shakespeare Theatre, the Steppenwolf Theatre, the Joffrey Ballet, Gerber/Hart Library, Newberry Library, Pritzker Military Library, Hubbard Street Dance.

This is just a partial list, but many of those institutions are leaders in their categories and internationally known.

I rent a guest room to visitors. I've had 300+ guests from 36+ countries in the past 4 years, and most of them know more about Chicago than Al Capone, Michael Jordan and deep dish pizza. I mean, how much does the average American know about Berlin or Moscow? Or Shanghai or Sydney? Chicago already has an enormous number of tourists every year, and is rapidly growing the space by directly reaching out with marketing both domestically and internationally. In business and academia, it is well-known and well-regarded. New York has more critical mass, but Chicago is no light-weight and has nothing to apologize for, given that it has between the 4th and 8th biggest GDP of any metro area in the world, depending on who's doing the measuring.
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
As the South develops, their wages will equalize with the midwest and they will have to try to attract higher-skill jobs at the same wage levels as the Great Lakes region.
Many parts of the South have higher wages than many parts of the Midwest, so this seems unlikely. Just because the South isn't union-friendly doesn't mean it isn't high wage. West Virginia is extremely union friendly yet relatively low wage; Texas is anti-union yet relatively high wage.
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
When it comes to investment, crime is a regional question and the Chicago region crime levels are actually better than most other American cities, including New York.
Do you have stats for this? Because I don't think this is true. I think crime in the NYC metro is considerably lower than crime in the Chicago area. Illinois, certainly, has much higher crime than any state in the Northeastern U.S., and the strong majority of Illinois is Chicagoland.
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Culturally, Chicago arguably has museums that, in the U.S., put it behind only New York and Washington (due to the national museums and Smithsonian) in importance.
I think this is probably true.
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 8:03 PM
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This thread should be closed.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by streetline View Post
The FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting DB says New York's murder rate was higher 1987-1990 (although they caution that comparisons between different cities may not be valid). It wasn't until the mid-90s that the murder rates really noticeably diverged.
And even Chicago's current rates are about half of what they were in the early 90s, it's just that New York has improved even more.
And Washington's murder rate is worse every year but 2012.

Code:
Murder rate*
Agency		1985 	 1986 	 1987 	 1988 	 1989 	 1990 	 1991 	 1992 	 1993 	 1994 	 1995 	 1996 	 1997 	 1998 	 1999 	 2000 	 2001 	 2002 	 2003 	 2004 	 2005 	 2006 	 2007 	 2008 	 2009 	 2010 	 2011 	 2012 
Washington	23.5	 31.0	 36.2	 59.5	 71.9	 77.8	 80.6	 75.2	 78.5	 70.0	 65.2	 73.1	 56.9	 49.7	 46.4	 41.8	 40.6	 45.9	 44.0	 35.8	 35.4	 29.1	 30.8	 31.4	 24.0	 21.9	 17.5	 13.9
Chicago		22.2	 24.8	 22.8	 22.0	 24.8	 30.5	 32.9	 33.1	 30.3	 33.1	 30.0	 28.6	 27.4	 25.6	 22.7	 21.8	 22.9	 22.1	 20.6	 15.5	 15.6	 16.4	 15.7	 18.0	 16.1	 16.0	 15.9	 18.5
New York	19.3	 22.0	 23.0	 25.8	 25.8	 30.7	 29.3	 27.1	 26.5	 21.3	 16.1	 13.4	 10.5	 8.6	 8.9	 8.4	 8.9	 7.3	 7.4	 7.0	 6.6	 7.3	 6.0	 6.3	 5.6	 6.6	 6.3	 5.1
Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Well, but that gun violence is in areas of the city that, frankly, you will never visit.

It's like choosing to not visit Times Square because of a series of shootings out in Queens.

Having said that, I do agree that Chicago must address the crime problem somehow, but I have no idea what the solution is.
It imo is the the only real problem holding the city back. An interesting chart was presented a page ago makes me wonder what happened in NYC in 1994 and what happened in DC recently 2004 till present. it seems like that's when homicides started to break for the two cities but Chicago is more of a constant decline.
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 8:18 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Culturally, Chicago arguably has museums that, in the U.S., put it behind only New York and Washington (due to the national museums and Smithsonian) in importance. The Art Institute has vast, important collections. The Field Museum is one of the most important museums of natural history not only for its collection but for the role it plays in research. The University of Chicago is very important in sociology and archeology and, of course, economics. The Museum of Science and Industry is possibly the best of its kind in the U.S. There are dozens of lesser-known museums that are very good in their space, including the Museum of Contemporary Art, the Dusable Museum - one of the premier museums dedicated to African-American art, the National Museum of Mexican Art, the Ukrainian National Museum, the Ukrainian Institute of Modern Art, the Smart Museum, the Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum, the Adler Planetarium, the Shedd Aquarium, the Museum of Surgical Science, the Oriental Institute, Chicago History Museum, National Hellenic Museum, Spertus Institute, Italian-American Sports Hall of Fame, Mitchell Museum of the American Indian, Museum of Broadcast Communications, Museum of Leather, and many others.
^ We'll be adding the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art to that list in a few years as well...
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  #90  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 8:19 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Do you have stats for this? Because I don't think this is true. I think crime in the NYC metro is considerably lower than crime in the Chicago area. Illinois, certainly, has much higher crime than any state in the Northeastern U.S., and the strong majority of Illinois is Chicagoland..
^ About 6 months to a year ago those stats were posted in a thread showing that metro Chicago had a lower murder rate than metro NY. I don't know about overall crime though
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  #91  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jpdivola View Post
In 1990, Time Magazine famously declared NYC: The Rotting Apple. One the surface, the city was seen in decline. Crime and abandonment were issues, there was a perception that people were leaving the city for other warmer climates.

But underneath the surface, NYC remained a global powerhouse with a world class economy, unrivaled urban amenities, historic architecture, world class cultural and educational institutions. These innate strengths reemerged in the 90s/00s as the city powered back to life.

I wonder today if Chicago is in a similar positions to where NYC was then. It's a city that has had some bad headlines over the past few years (municipal finances, crime, pop loss, etc). But, underneath the negative headlines the city remains a world class city with an urban scale unmatched outside of NYC. No other city in the country combines the world class city feel with a relatively reasonable cost of living. Plus, with the South Loop, West Loop, River West, eastern portions of the near north side, and auto-oriented lots in Lakeview/Lincoln/West Town/ Pilson/Taylor street arguable none of the other urban cities in the country have the development potential left right in the urban core.

This is not a city-vs-city discussion. Just a discussion on Chicago's future. Could it come roaring back with a world class revival?
When i first saw the tital i was pretty pissed because it seemed like another jackass New Yorker Saying how Chicago is so behind, but now that i read what you meant the thread to be about i totally agree. Chicago has been labeled as being this otherworldly war zone, but it is actually a world class city. To less informed people, people who only get info from the media and don't actually research things that they hear, they think Chicago is crashing like Detroit did in population and development. but to people who actually know the city know that yea there are bad parts of the city, but there are so many good parts and so much development that the city isn't only OK, it is thriving!
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 9:08 PM
memph memph is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
^ About 6 months to a year ago those stats were posted in a thread showing that metro Chicago had a lower murder rate than metro NY. I don't know about overall crime though
According to the FBI's 2012 numbers, the murder rate for metro Chicago is 7.1 compared to 3.8 for metro New York.
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenmore View Post
no, Chicago's arrow is very clearly pointing down
Im drowning in your ignorance...
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 9:17 PM
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when the accusations of "ignorance" start flying, you know the thread has jumped the shark.
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