Halifax Central Library | 27 m | 6 fl | Completed

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

if it means the province or feds have to chip in more for the library to see it built than its fine by me. It'll teach them to treat all districts easily.

It really doesn't work that way. Usually they either fund something or not, and it's pretty normal to see roughly 1/3 for each level of government, although it's definitely also true that not all places get equal deals. Halifax is not very politically connected and the Maritimes in general are unimportant politically - they make very little difference to the outcomes of elections.

If you want to build a federally-funded library in Canada right now, the best place to do it is in a Tory riding in Quebec or Alberta... it has little or nothing to do with actual need and providing equal services.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Barrington south

was under the impression that the city needs raise funds through property sales. To bad Kellly spent all our money on that 4 plex for bedford

HRM never seems to be short on cash. They love to spend our money on things that aren't necessary.

I see Sloane is now touting not selling off the existing library site but instead reusing it as an HRM Museum of some sort. She seems to have already forgotten about the $30 million budget gap they need to overcome this year. Museums of this type are not known for their revenue generation, nor does she seem to realize that the existing building requires many millions of dollars in renovations.

Ka-Ching!!!

[Barrington south]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

The 4-Pad's a necessairy project and if it means the province or feds have to chip in more for the library to see it built than its fine by me. It'll teach them to treat all districts easily.

sure, it's close to bedford, so I'm sure it's "necessary" to you, not me... I'm sure the Library will benefit more people, so perhaps it is "more necessary". Kelly has always dragged his heels on downtown.......and let it be known one last time......downtown pay's out so much more in taxes then it receives in funding. Sounds Like the good mayor is treating districts differently.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Barrington south

sure, it's close to bedford, so I'm sure it's "necessary" to you, not me... I'm sure the Library will benefit more people, so perhaps it is "more necessary". Kelly has always dragged his heels on downtown.......and let it be known one last time......downtown pay's out so much more in taxes then it receives in funding. Sounds Like the good mayor is treating districts differently.

Actually its not "necessairy" to me at all. I don't skate or play hockey, and I'll be moved out of town by the time the rink opens. The reason I find it necessairy is I have heard the stories of trying to get ice time in Bedford and how our teams have to travel in town frequently to even get on the ice because of the shortage of rinks out here in the Northwest area. Unfortunately other residents of HRM do not believe the stories becuase they have rinks available in their neighbourhoods.

The point you politely bolded also applies to Bedford. After Downtown, Bedford is the most expensive place to live in HRM and as any knowledgable person would know the more expensive an object is the more tax you pay on it, particulairly on assessment values which are abnormally high in this town. What we get in return is an occasional paving project or maybe a few thousand dollars a year to fix up a park, a far cry from fair return of our tax money. The only major municipal project I can even think of in Bedford since amalgamation (excluding the 4-pad) is the fire/police station on Convoy Run.

Of course I am not saying the library is not an important project, I am simply stating that the 4-pad arena was more necessairy to build and if it meant holding off the library for a year or two it is worth it.

Also what you said about the 4-pad being necessairy to me because I live in Bedford can also be said about the library's neccesity to you since you live on the Peninsula. You probably have no need to go out to Bedford for an arena, and I have no need to go in town for a library.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by Barrington south

sure, it's close to bedford, so I'm sure it's "necessary" to you, not me... I'm sure the Library will benefit more people, so perhaps it is "more necessary". Kelly has always dragged his heels on downtown.......and let it be known one last time......downtown pay's out so much more in taxes then it receives in funding. Sounds Like the good mayor is treating districts differently.

I agree

And furthermore proceeded without proper funding.

This was power struggle between Bedford MLA's/ and Federal government and Kelly. Now the city pays for Kelly's bold move, of which has sucked funds from other projects.

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

The Killam atrium is one of my favourite places in at Dal. My only complaint is that it should have been bigger.

Well... it wasn't originally designed as a gathering place. It was only a place to walk through to get to the main entrance. There was never any seating or retail. Just concrete. The water feature had never been used either. It was just an empty concrete moat. I also like the Killam by the way. And I spent a great deal of time in the late 80's listening to classical music on the top floor (BMus '91). I loved that it was the only publicly accessible space in the Library with big outward facing windows.

[HRM]

To Bedford DJ

The belief that Bedford is the second most expensive place to live in HRM seems to be held by only those living in Bedford. It is not even close to being the second most expensive place to live in HRM. Check out the million dollar properties along Purcells Cove Road and Ketch Harbour Road (one just sold for north of $3M), Fairmount, Ravenscraig, (the best designed development in the city by far), Seabright, Glen Haven, Cresthaven, Mount Royale, Jollymore, the little enclaves along Joe Howe near the Rotary, and many many other areas.

Don't get me wrong - not dumping on Bedford. I know many people who live in Bedford but their view of the city can be rather myopic and they erroneously think they individually contribute more in taxes than others living in many other areas of HRM.

The houses in my area are all assessed forn tax purposes north of 500K and we haven't seen any upgrades or improvements in years. We don't even have proper sidewalks and I'm only 10 minutes from downtown. So getting a four-pad rink while contributing far less in taxes per household (considering Bedford is the condo capital of NS which each contribute a relatively small amount toward our tax base) than other areas in the city that do not have a single rec facility is the result of political meddling and not providing services on a per tax dollar basis.

[MonctonRad]

Don't worry Bedford DJ, I support the 4-plex. If it will be anything like the one here in Moncton, it will be a great success. I would only venture to add that I think they should be looking to build other 4-plexes near the mainland north common and in suburban Dartmouth as well, to cover all of the urban areas of HRM.

re: the Killam Library, I spent 9 years at Dalhousie, including getting an MD (1983). I never liked the library........far too brutalist and during my time there, seemingly badly neglected. The atrium at the time was open air, very cold and all concrete. Perhaps it is better now.....I'll have to check it out the next time I'm back.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

re: the Killam Library, I spent 9 years at Dalhousie, including getting an MD (1983). I never liked the library........far too brutalist and during my time there, seemingly badly neglected. The atrium at the time was open air, very cold and all concrete. Perhaps it is better now.....I'll have to check it out the next time I'm back.

That is a very impressive bio MonctonRad - are you a Radiologist (since you have Rad in your name). I was at the Dalhousie Studley campus for a couple of those years 76 - 78 before moving on to the Sexton campus. Those were good years to be at Dalhousie University (maybe now it is just as good).

When do you think that the Halifax area will get a stadium, MonctonRad? I feel kind of jealous that Moncton seems to have so much more interest in the CFL than Halifax (no offense to Halifax area CFL fans)

[Phalanx]

I know that the atrium wasn't always covered or the inviting place that it became, but that was before my time (late 90s/early 00s). I've also made my fair share of comments about it looking like a bunker on the outside, but it's grown on me over the years.

[alps]

Originally Posted by HRM

Ravenscraig, (the best designed development in the city by far)

I drove through that development by accident once. If ostentatiously large houses with tacky finishes and a streetscape of mammoth plastic garage doors are the best in development and design we've got going in the city...

The Killam library atrium is especially interesting at night -- it was a great move to add the glass roof. Personally I like the architecture and the colour of the thick rosewood railings and other wood fittings. works really well with the concrete, which I don't mind at all.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That is a very impressive bio MonctonRad - are you a Radiologist (since you have Rad in your name). I was at the Dalhousie Studley campus for a couple of those years 76 - 78 before moving on to the Sexton campus. Those were good years to be at Dalhousie University (maybe now it is just as good).

When do you think that the Halifax area will get a stadium, MonctonRad? I feel kind of jealous that Moncton seems to have so much more interest in the CFL than Halifax (no offense to Halifax area CFL fans)

Yes, I am indeed a Radiologist, one of 20 in Moncton (by far the second largest grouping of Radiologists in the Maritimes). My time in Halifax extended from 1979-89 (with one year off for family practice in Summerside) and included med school, internship and residency. What did you do your degree in Fenwick?

re: football, Moncton has only just gotten a fortuitous leg up on the situation because of the IAAF World Championships. Our stadium still needs major work to bring it up to CFL standards. If Halifax ever gets it's act together, I have no doubt that it would be a tough struggle to convince the CFL that it should ultimately locate in Moncton rather than Halifax.

You guys just have to get out there and find another world class athletic event so that you can get the feds to kick in some funding!

Nothing will happen for 5 years, that's how long the current contract between Moncton and the CFL will last. Even after that, it will take some time to organize an ownership group and obtain a franchise.

I predict there will be no Maritime CFL team before 2020 so Halifax still has time to get things right. Don't panic yet!

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by HRM

To Bedford DJ

The belief that Bedford is the second most expensive place to live in HRM seems to be held by only those living in Bedford. It is not even close to being the second most expensive place to live in HRM. Check out the million dollar properties along Purcells Cove Road and Ketch Harbour Road (one just sold for north of $3M), Fairmount, Ravenscraig, (the best designed development in the city by far), Seabright, Glen Haven, Cresthaven, Mount Royale, Jollymore, the little enclaves along Joe Howe near the Rotary, and many many other areas.

Don't get me wrong - not dumping on Bedford. I know many people who live in Bedford but their view of the city can be rather myopic and they erroneously think they individually contribute more in taxes than others living in many other areas of HRM.

The houses in my area are all assessed forn tax purposes north of 500K and we haven't seen any upgrades or improvements in years. We don't even have proper sidewalks and I'm only 10 minutes from downtown. So getting a four-pad rink while contributing far less in taxes per household (considering Bedford is the condo capital of NS which each contribute a relatively small amount toward our tax base) than other areas in the city that do not have a single rec facility is the result of political meddling and not providing services on a per tax dollar basis.

Firstly, welcome to the forums HRM.

I respect your opinions of course but there one major flaw with your statement.

Almost every community in Halifax has expensive properties commonly clumped together in a small area (Long Cove in Bedford, Ravenscraig in Spryfield, Port Wallace in Dartmouth, Deep South-End in Halifax, Glen Harbour in Hammonds Plains, ect). To balance this out every community also has poorer neighbourhoods (Nottingham in Bedford, Greystone in Spryfield, Highfield in Dartmouth, Uniacke Square in Halifax, ect). When combined these determine the community's per capita tax base (how much an average individual pays to live there) and to an extent the quality of services they should receive. Most communities balance out to a reasonable number but Bedford, Downtown, Herring Cove, and others come out very high.

Where I live also experiences the problems you pointed out and I live 15 minutes from downtown (I can see Purdys Wharf from just outside my backyard). In all of Eaglewood there is only one sidewalk and no buses at all. Most of the houses are accessed over 400k and frankly compared to Ridgevale acroos the way from us we get nothing (they have stoplights, fresh paving, sidewalks ect all thanks to having Outhit and the Regans living there).

The condo statement is defenitely not true. With the exception of Basinview (about 6 condo buildings), Waterfront (4-5 condo buildings), and Bedford South (2 condo buildings) there are no significant numbers of condos in Bedford. Like all communities there are some mixed in but for the most part Bedford is a single house/townhouse area. The ones we do have are expensive (200k single unit, up to 1M for two-three bedrooms) so even though the condo tax base may be realitively small, per capita they are expensive to live in.

My real point anyways was what is more important to a city; a fancy library or recreational facilities? I know I'd prefer recreational facilities to exercise and socialize at over a library anyday.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Don't worry Bedford DJ, I support the 4-plex. If it will be anything like the one here in Moncton, it will be a great success. I would only venture to add that I think they should be looking to build other 4-plexes near the mainland north common and in suburban Dartmouth as well, to cover all of the urban areas of HRM.

I totally agree that projects like this should be built elsewhere in the city. If the Bedford one proves a sucess one in Spryfield, Sackville, and Eastern Dartmouth would service the needs of most of the municipality.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, I am indeed a Radiologist, one of 20 in Moncton (by far the second largest grouping of Radiologists in the Maritimes). My time in Halifax extended from 1979-89 (with one year off for family practice in Summerside) and included med school, internship and residency. What did you do your degree in Fenwick?

That is a large number of Radiologists for the Moncton area. Is Moncton the medical centre of New Brunswick and PEI? My Bachelors degree was in Chemical Engineering from Dalhousie and TUNS (which is now the Sexton campus of Dalhousie) in 1980 and I received a M. Eng from McMaster University (Hamilton) in 1983. I wish that my specialty was structural engineering since then instead of just doing conceptual stadium 3D models I would be able to do the complete structural design.

re: football, Moncton has only just gotten a fortuitous leg up on the situation because of the IAAF World Championships. Our stadium still needs major work to bring it up to CFL standards. If Halifax ever gets it's act together, I have no doubt that it would be a tough struggle to convince the CFL that it should ultimately locate in Moncton rather than Halifax.

You guys just have to get out there and find another world class athletic event so that you can get the feds to kick in some funding!

Nothing will happen for 5 years, that's how long the current contract between Moncton and the CFL will last. Even after that, it will take some time to organize an ownership group and obtain a franchise.

I predict there will be no Maritime CFL team before 2020 so Halifax still has time to get things right. Don't panic yet!

I hope that it will be sooner than 2020. Seeing all the enthusiasm in the Moncton area and being able to build a 20,000 seat stadium, I hope that eventually there will either be two CFL teams in the Maritimes or that there will be a way to share a team between Halifax and Moncton. I am no longer in the Maritimes but it will be tempting to fly down to see a CFL game in Moncton (if there are any tickets remaining).

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

To balance this out every community also has poorer neighbourhoods (Nottingham in Bedford, Greystone in Spryfield, Highfield in Dartmouth, Uniacke Square in Halifax, ect).

Nottingham looks like a wealthy suburb compared to Greystone! Greystone is interesting because I don't think most people in the HRM even know it exists, but it is really a scar on the HRM. At least Uniacke and Highfield are close to services and are somewhat a part of a bigger community, Greystone is a isolated compound. The first time I drove up there I was shocked it existed. I really don't know anything about its development, but the choice to put a large social housing project there is incomprehensible.

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

My real point anyways was what is more important to a city; a fancy library or recreational facilities? I know I'd prefer recreational facilities to exercise and socialize at over a library anyday.

On this note - a library provides more services and opportunities than recreation facilities. I know you can argue that recreational facilities have significant benefits for a community - and I agree that they do - a library is a bit different. I library is a civic institution, it provides community meeting space, it provides free training programs and other services - it delivers services (as one example, over the next two months HRM public libraries provide free income tax services to low income residents).

Libraries are much more than a place to borrow books - or to socialize as you say - but for a lot of people libraries are a essential part of a community. For many, libraries are their only access to the internet which is essential today for everything from job searches, apartment searches, information about gov't services, education programs, etc.

I can go on, but maybe the point is this. While a rink may improve more homogenous suburban or more rural communities - and I think this is certainly the case, as it often becomes a key gathering place for kids and parents - a library reaches many more in a city. And for many who use it, access to recreational facilities is secondary, but certainly not necessary. The potential benefits between the two are difficult to compare because they appeal to different groups.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Takeo

Well... it wasn't originally designed as a gathering place. It was only a place to walk through to get to the main entrance. There was never any seating or retail. Just concrete. The water feature had never been used either. It was just an empty concrete moat. I also like the Killam by the way. And I spent a great deal of time in the late 80's listening to classical music on the top floor (BMus '91). I loved that it was the only publicly accessible space in the Library with big outward facing windows.

Geez... I was at Dal from '76-'78 and spent a lot of time at the Killam, both for classes and otherwise... I can't remember any of what you're talking about. Nor do I know what's there now. I guess I need to revisit.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Geez... I was at Dal from '76-'78 and spent a lot of time at the Killam, both for classes and otherwise... I can't remember any of what you're talking about. Nor do I know what's there now. I guess I need to revisit.

Which faculty were you in Keith P.?

It is interesting that there are so many who attended Dalhousie University on this forum.

[Takeo]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Geez... I was at Dal from '76-'78 and spent a lot of time at the Killam, both for classes and otherwise... I can't remember any of what you're talking about. Nor do I know what's there now. I guess I need to revisit.

The music section was (and is) in the north west corner of the top floor. That was in the late 80's early 90's. It may not have been there in the 70's. In fact... I think it only moved up there at some point during my music degree... 87-91.

The 'moat' was never really noticeable since... without water in it... (in fact... I think it may have been filled with beach stones)... you would never really notice it or know what it was meant to be. Just looked like more sculptural concrete. It was always intended to be filled with water. The "stream" was actually supposed to "flow" right under the east block of the building. It wasn't until the glass roof was put over the courtyard that they were able to actually able to finally implement this idea.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Takeo

The music section was (and is) in the north west corner of the top floor. That was in the late 80's early 90's. It may not have been there in the 70's. In fact... I think it only moved up there at some point during my music degree... 87-91.

The 'moat' was never really noticeable since... without water in it... (in fact... I think it may have been filled with beach stones)... you would never really notice it or know what it was meant to be. Just looked like more sculptural concrete. It was always intended to be filled with water. The "stream" was actually supposed to "flow" right under the east block of the building. It wasn't until the glass roof was put over the courtyard that they were able to actually able to finally implement this idea.

When I was at Dalhousie in the late 70's, I think that the music room and record collection was on the ground floor close to the atrium. I found this picture on the internet (source wikipedia):


This is another one taken when it was still open to the elements: (source http://www.library.dal.ca/duasc/buil...m_PC1_19.3.jpg )


And here is one of the exterior (source inmouchar on Panoramio):


I think that this is great architecture, inside and out.

[MonctonRad]

Without meaning to hijack this thread, I'll try to answer your questions briefly.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That is a large number of Radiologists for the Moncton area. Is Moncton the medical centre of New Brunswick and PEI?

The answer is a (qualified) yes, although I am sure that the Saint John forumers would dispute this!

There are more people living in eastern & northern NB than in southern and western NB. PEI falls into our orbit and if you live in Cumberland County NS, you tend to come to Moncton for specialized care rather than Halifax. I would say our catchment population for medical services is about 550,000 as apposed to about 400,000 for Saint John.

Between the Moncton Hospital (TMH) and the Georges-L. Dumont Hospital (GDH), we have over 800 active treatment beds and over 400 physicians in the city. This would be the largest medical community outside of Halifax. We provide all medical services (except for cardiac surgery).

There is a satellite medical campus at the GDH which is affiliated with the Universite de Sherbrooke. It is possible to obtain a medical degree (in French) without leaving Moncton. There is a also new Dalhousie Medical Program in New Brunswick in development, which will be based in Saint John but third and fourth year med students will also be based at the TMH.

TMH already has an accredited Family Medicine residency program which is associated with Dalhousie and we frequently get residents in other programs rotating through our hospital as well, doing a variety of medical and surgical electives.

At present there are usually at least 20 medical students and residents at TMH at any one time. This will increase once the Dalhousie NB medical program kicks in.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I hope that it will be sooner than 2020. Seeing all the enthusiasm in the Moncton area and being able to build a 20,000 seat stadium, I hope that eventually there will either be two CFL teams in the Maritimes or that there will be a way to share a team between Halifax and Moncton. I am no longer in the Maritimes but it will be tempting to fly down to see a CFL game in Moncton (if there are any tickets remaining).

It is also a (not-so-secret) dream of mine that there might be CFL teams based in both Halifax and Moncton. The distance between the cities and the dissimilar catchment areas are such that I don't think this is completely preposterous. Having two teams "out east" would lead to an intense rivalry that would be good for the game! (You should see the rivalry right now between the Saint John Sea Dogs & the Moncton Wildcats).

Originally Posted by Bedford_DJ

My real point anyways was what is more important to a city; a fancy library or recreational facilities? I know I'd prefer recreational facilities to exercise and socialize at over a library anyday.

My response to this is both are equally important

The needs of suburban families with young kids is entirely different from those of empty nesters and urban singles living downtown. I have lived both lifestyles and I know this from personal experience.

I have one son who was very active in competitive hockey. A second son is currently involved with lacrosse. My third son is a bookworm, but all three have been involved in high school football. I have come to really appreciate facilities like the 4-plex and Rocky Stone Field.

While I think that the new central library for downtown Halifax should make a statement, I am worried that there will be a push to make this building so iconic that it will be at the expense of other necessary recreational infrastructure elsewhere in the municipality. This project should be approached with necessary fiscal prudence.

Having said this, there is a good chance that in retirement, I may return to condo living in downtown Halifax and I look forward to sipping a latte and skimming a good book in the atrium of the new Halifax Central Library..........just don't forget the needs of the suburban families in Halifax!