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  #1081  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 12:46 AM
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Nothing against the DTES, which is indeed a really interesting and in some ways exceptional neighbourhood. But if you think it has more to offer than anywhere outside of Toronto and Vancouver, I think you need to visit more places.
Alright. Name a neighbourhood in Calgary or Ottawa or wherever.
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  #1082  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 12:51 AM
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Oops, sorry.

I was going to post something because I thought this was the Provincial Economies thread.
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  #1083  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 1:10 AM
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oops, sorry.

I was going to post something because i thought this was the provincial economies thread.
thank you!!!!
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  #1084  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 1:52 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Alright. Name a neighbourhood in Calgary or Ottawa or wherever.
For urbanity? St-Roch, St-Sauveur, Montcalm, the walled old town. That's four right there, outside Mtl/TO. Witnessed by myself, as someone familiar with all of them who has also visited the DTES on foot.
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  #1085  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 1:59 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Alright. Name a neighbourhood in Calgary or Ottawa or wherever.
My neighbourhood, Rabbittown, is a miniature version. The same things - urbanity, social problems, reputation, close-knit community, among lowest income in Canada, etc.

And that's just St. John's.

I've no doubt even Halifax, yet alone any of the big cities in Canada, can provide neighbourhoods that compare.

There's nothing special about anywhere in Canada at the most basic level. It's a boring, generic federation. Everything that makes each region unique exists in some degree elsewhere. Halifax has lovely rowhouses and Irish music too.

It's what you make of it that makes the difference. And the DTES hasn't made much of it.
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  #1086  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:14 AM
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I presume most people are relying purely on reputation when judging the DTES.
Not me, I've actually explored it in person. It's a hellhole, no question.
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  #1087  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:26 AM
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There's nothing special about anywhere in Canada at the most basic level. It's a boring, generic federation. Everything that makes each region unique exists in some degree elsewhere. Halifax has lovely rowhouses and Irish music too.
This is true to some degree but Halifax and St. John's are in the same region, and are more alike than they are similar to faraway cities like Vancouver or Calgary (although if you widen the context further to encompass other countries then St. John's again starts to mostly look pretty similar to Vancouver or Calgary). Vancouver actually doesn't have nearly as much character or unique local flavour, although it does have some, plus it has a lot of interesting Asian culture. Vancouver has almost no buildings from before about 1880, and very few of the charming wooden buildings you find on the East Coast. It also has a lot of not-so-interesting conspicuous consumerism and generic hipsterism. If you're not a real housewives type, Alberni Street has about the same density of relevant shops as the DTES/"Crosstown". The metro area as a whole is also kind of spread out; it's like LA.

Actually I would not be surprised if Quebec City has more extensive neighbourhoods that are interesting to explore on foot. Vancouver (city) is mostly streetcar suburbia and Lululemons.

If climate alone renders the rest of Canada a hellhole then most of BC is also a hellhole and Vancouver is dangerously close to being a hellhole. I'm not sure how that works though; is a place a hellhole just during the winter months or is it a hellhole for the whole year just because it has some period of winter weather? Was Vancouver a hellhole in 2008 or whenever it was that most of the roads were covered in ice for a few weeks?
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  #1088  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:29 AM
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It's very unfortunate because the rest of the country is a hellhole.
One man's hellhole is another man's treasure.

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Been to the US a few times it's a by far an improvement on Canada.
I've travelled the US extensively, likely more so than you, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Not to say that all American cities are shitholes, but compared to most Canadian cities, they are indeed. And if you fancy higher crime rates, higher racial segregation and higher global ignorance, then I guess 'Murca is for you
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  #1089  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:29 AM
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These places being mentioned are almost exclusively residential. The DTES has a good diversity of residents, while at the same time offering fine restaurants, live music venues, dive bars, snooty night clubs, and retail offerings from thrift stores to 100 000 dollar stereo's, plus the architecture easily surpasses most of the places mentioned.

All due respect to you guys, but you don't seem very familiar with the DTES.
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  #1090  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:30 AM
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Name one thing Canada does better than the US that is not healthcare or crime.

I'll wait.
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  #1091  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor View Post
Name one thing Canada does better than the US that is not healthcare or crime.

I'll wait.
Sad whining about perceived national inadequacies? I would say they are catching up though.

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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
These places being mentioned are almost exclusively residential. The DTES has a good diversity of residents, while at the same time offering fine restaurants, live music venues, dive bars, snooty night clubs, and retail offerings from thrift stores to 100 000 dollar stereo's, plus the architecture easily surpasses most of the places mentioned.
And you can golf and then go skiing in the same day!
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  #1092  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor View Post
Name one thing Canada does better than the US that is not healthcare or crime.

I'll wait.
American music, elections. Politics in general, especially the point at which conservative/liberal is divided and why. We do slightly better on social equality, systemic racism, etc. None of these issues well enough to brag about, but certainly better than the United States.

But your point is valid, to a degree. I mean, even Portland, Maine, could rival all but the very largest of Canada's cities in that engaging, vibrant urban feeling we seek out. They do cities to the extreme - lots are far worse than the Canadian average, many - especially in the eastern half of the country - do far better.

Driving to Florida it's depressing how many towns of 10,000 or so I pass through that rival St. John's in terms of the size and activity level in the downtown - and, whatever people might think, I've been across Canada, and we do fucking amazing by Canadian standards, so these towns are doing better than most of ye as well.
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  #1093  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:44 AM
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I've been elsewhere in Canada, I lived in Newfoundland and aside from the climate, it remains the only part of Canada with a distinct local Culture.

Calgary was a suburban rich city which I found boring, winters were horrendous when I was there and it was rainy and stormy every day.

Is Vancouver climate warm? It's european, i.e. moderate year round so it is very much livable. There is a MASSIVE difference between 0c as a high in say Toronto and 7c as a high in Vancouver for winter.

Do I like rain? I abhor it, but I'll take rain over -10c for 3 months any day.

The coast of BC, Southern Ontario, and the Okanagan valley of BC are the only parts of Canada that have a livable climate and thats mostly due to the fact winters may be cold but they lack the extremes found elsewhere.

When it comes to quality of life and standard of living. I'm poor so my views comes from my upbringing and having relied on the social safety net in this country growing up I have nothing but negative thoughts to issue on this Topic. Admittedly the US is not better but hey, at least you can be a beach bum in LA.

Workers rights in Canada re abysmal, cost of housing is ridiculous, wages are low compared with cost of living, the economy is crap since this country doesn't innovate like they do state side, the welfare state is almost non-existent, the healthcare system is abhorrent and I know this because unlike most people, i've spent years in and out of the system begging for help for assorted illnesses they refuse to help over.

If Canada is comparable with Europe and better than the US, then the US is horrendous in every single way and Europe must be equally garbage as here.

But at least Canadians are Liberal socially. They will let a homeless guy die for being homeless and not being he is gay, how wonderful.

Edit: Anyways this is completely off topic and I do not wish to continue this further.
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  #1094  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 2:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor View Post
Name one thing Canada does better than the US that is not healthcare or crime.

I'll wait.
I don't believe it is a competition but I believe that Canada does many things better. Some of the things I believe it includes (other than health care and crime rates):

-much lower rates of poverty for many groups (although I find it is way too high in Canada as well but still much lower than in the U.S.)

-our banking system is much better

-education in general is better (provincial school systems, funding to start school earlier, ability to get into post-secondary no matter one's social and economic status)

-labour rights: so many provincial laws that make life better for workers, more vacation time in general, maternity leave with EI and other types of leave with it as well

-anti-discriminatory laws are stronger in Canada and are successful and result in better individual and group freedoms, rights and opportunities.

-there is much less of a gap between the wealthiest and poorest people (and no, we're not a socialist country)

-more creativity and originality is accepted more in Canada (especially in Quebec)

-political decisions are more often based on evidence and facts rather than religious beliefs and the agendas of private interests

I could go on and on....
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  #1095  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:00 AM
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I guess, not being a hell hole is what justifies POS tear-down Vancouver houses costing 2 to 4 million dollars then. It's great to be Canadian eh.


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...

Driving to Florida it's depressing how many towns of 10,000 or so I pass through that rival St. John's in terms of the size and activity level in the downtown - and, whatever people might think, I've been across Canada, and we do fucking amazing by Canadian standards, so these towns are doing better than most of ye as well.
Don't forget that climatic differences account for most of that. I've heard the climate argument used to defend SJ's lack of street life (it's only present on George Street during drinking hours). I mean I don't see people even being outside when I am there - I really notice it being totally dead. Ok, I do live in a big city, so it's not necessarily fair to compare, but I typically see more people here in Vanc. (randomly outside) at a single glance, any time of year, than I ever do in SJ while driving several miles through the city. So, the most obvious defense for that difference, is climate.

Last edited by Architype; Jul 26, 2016 at 3:16 AM.
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  #1096  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Driving to Florida it's depressing how many towns of 10,000 or so I pass through that rival St. John's in terms of the size and activity level in the downtown - and, whatever people might think, I've been across Canada, and we do fucking amazing by Canadian standards, so these towns are doing better than most of ye as well.
True, you take a random exit off the interstate into a cookie-cutter village to try to get something to eat that's a change from all the fast-food chains, and you'll find something like this:

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  #1097  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:07 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
These places being mentioned are almost exclusively residential. The DTES has a good diversity of residents, while at the same time offering fine restaurants, live music venues, dive bars, snooty night clubs, and retail offerings from thrift stores to 100 000 dollar stereo's, plus the architecture easily surpasses most of the places mentioned.

All due respect to you guys, but you don't seem very familiar with the DTES.
The St-Roch neighborhood is far from exclusively residential. It offers a lot of commercial diversity, and the architecture compares favorably with the DTES in my opinion:




And for a look at the average density:

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  #1098  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:11 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Alright. Name a neighbourhood in Calgary or Ottawa or wherever.
I'm not going to run through all the urban districts across the country that offer a fascinating/exciting/rich urban experience, nor all the small communities that do so on a small-town scale.

I will give a special shout-out to my 'hood though, the North End of Halifax. It lacks the architectural punch of the best bits of Hastings Street, but it makes up for the lack of that streetscape with 1. A more diverse and interesting assortment of institutional, residential, and military architecture, and 2. a longer and more layered and human history spanning nearly three centuries and much of planet: this is where slaves were bought and sold on the docks just a few blocks from my house, Acadian prisoners were housed on an island I can see from a park just down the street before being deported, Titanic victims were brought ashore and buried here, one of the largest pre-abolition free black communities in North America lived here (and their descendants live here still), the largest pre-atomic explosion in history wiped out a chunk of the neighbourhood in 1917 (the only place in the Americas where a world war caused major urban destruction).

Today, all the tensions and frisson accompanying any gentrifying urban community play out today against a complex physical/social/racial backdrop with roots dating to more than a century before Vancouver was even hacked out of the woods. (If we're talking cultural/consumerist stuff like art galleries or microbreweries or restaurants or record stores, yes, it has all that too.)

Perhaps you could offer up a Vancouver neighbourhood besides the DTES/West End. I'm not even criticizing Vancouver; it just strikes me that you've cherry-picked one its two really interesting urban neighbourhoods and dared the ROC to match them. I assume you wouldn't lay down Kitsilano or Hastings-Sunrise or even Strathcona in a similar challenge, though they're far more typical of the city.
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  #1099  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:19 AM
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I think Americans used to put more into their towns' public areas and main streets (than Canadians), it was the result of greater emphasis on national and civic pride, and a higher level of competitiveness, both in capitalist and civic senses. I'm not sure it's still like that.
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  #1100  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:26 AM
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Don't forget that climatic differences account for most of that. I've heard the climate argument used to defend SJ's lack of street life (it's only present on George Street during drinking hours). I mean I don't see people even being outside when I am there - I really notice it being totally dead. Ok, I do live in a big city, so it's not necessarily fair to compare, but I typically see more people here in Vanc. (randomly outside) at a single glance, any time of year, than I ever do in SJ while driving several miles through the city. So, the most obvious defense for that difference, is climate.
Compared to Vancouver, definitely. But you need to go to Quebec City or more than 750,000 to do better. There's lots of times when it's completely dead. A March Tuesday at 8 and you could feel like the last person alive. But summer weekdays and weekends are packed from 10-6 minimum. Anywhere you can get a drink, 3-4 am minimum.

There's a lot of days I get annoyed walking on water Street having to move around people or slow down to their speed because there's no room. That's not every day, but it's not ever in many cities much larger than here. For example, Canada Day in Osborne Village was the only time Winnipeg felt as busy to me. That's every Saturday on George Street here, and it's any summer afternoon on Water much of the time too.

We keep up a pretty decent level of activity year-round:



But lots of time I can take pics without a single person on the street, which I prefer (for pictures), as well, of course. Even during daylight hours, year-round. We're definitely a city that sleeps. Even George is empty by 5-6. But we're also a city that does get busy during normal times.
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Last edited by SignalHillHiker; Jul 26, 2016 at 3:38 AM.
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