ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[MdtwnATL]

Originally Posted by treepeach

Given the number of apartments coming to market in Midtown in the next 18-24 months, it's surprising banks are lending to new projects like Eviva and Hanover. What kind of projections are they basing their lending decisions on? And are they doing any due diligence? Feels like Miami circa 2005. Both Hanover and Eviva are huge buildings that would be finished way after everything else that's being built on W. Peachtree, Peachtree, and 10th & Piedmont. It's true a few businesses are moving to Midtown, but how many of their employees will be young millenials (with no kids) who can afford to live in an expensive city rental?

Well, you have NCR moving 5,000 - 6,000 jobs into the heart of Midtown. A significant number of people from that move will most likely land in Midtown. You can also bet that many future NCR new-hires will be plucked straight from GA Tech. And that's just ONE company. This will be a trend for the area moving forward with more companies continuing to move into the area. I see the demand definitely being there.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

The big difference between Atlanta and Miami: Miami is building condos, Atlanta is building apartments. The Miami condos will never be sold and existing owners as well as developers and banks are starting to sweat. The Atlanta apartments will be leased though perhaps for a bit less than projected. Here's why building apartments in Midtown or anywhere in Atlanta is a good deal:
1) Construction loan interest rates are low until at least after the election.
2) People can live in Midtown and elsewhere close-in and easily commute outward.
3) Rents are still cheaper than in practically any other major city.
4) The cost to buy is beyond the reach of younger people.
5) The synergies of living intown have greatly improved.

Exactly.

The market for apartments is inherently far more stable than the one for houses. Houses have a positive feedback loop: if someone sells their heavily-financed house at a profit, they get a windfall that can suddenly morph into a much larger down payment. Magically, with no real income growth, they are approved for a far larger loan. Rinse repeat, fill the condo blocks with shiny new rich people.

The market for apartments clears continuously, in contrast, and even if your project isn't successful drawing enough people paying $x,x00, it will almost assuredly be successful filling up with with people paying $200 less.

That's not to say the projects will be successful per se. But they certainly won't be forced to lower their prices 50% (like many condos were). Imagine the tens of thousands of people who would clamor for apartments if these $1,800 units dropped to $900/mo. I'd sell my condo and rent one and rent another one to AirBnB probably! A worst-case scenario is something like $1,500/mo, which would likely be coupled with no new construction for several years, and thus rent growth back up to their projection.

That's not to say these projects will be successful by the measuring stick of lenders. But the worst case is so much less gloomy than it is for high end condos.

[atlwarrior]

Originally Posted by treepeach

Given the number of apartments coming to market in Midtown in the next 18-24 months, it's surprising banks are lending to new projects like Eviva and Hanover. What kind of projections are they basing their lending decisions on? And are they doing any due diligence? Feels like Miami circa 2005. Both Hanover and Eviva are huge buildings that would be finished way after everything else that's being built on W. Peachtree, Peachtree, and 10th & Piedmont. It's true a few businesses are moving to Midtown, but how many of their employees will be young millenials (with no kids) who can afford to live in an expensive city rental?

Honeywell moving 800 more jobs just announced last week. Midtown is just the perfect market and will be fine with all the new constructions.

[Vaden]

I hate everything about that PC "renovation." One thing I hate about Atlanta is how it latches like a leech onto every "new" fad coming down the pike while simultaneously self-hating it's own landmarks. More mature cities accept themselves. For example, you'd never hear of NYC trying to "update" or "renovate" Rockefeller Center. Rockefeller Center has a central courtyard too, and New Yorkers love it. EVERYTHING doesn't need changed. Peachtree Center's central plaza is nice with it's glass ceiling, flags, planters, and sculpture. Now it's all going to be ripped out for this silliness. It's like the teenager of cities-always trying to change itself to suit someone else's vision of what it needs to be like. Until you love yourself, you can't expect others to either.

It's not a street nor should it try to be one.

[bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

The big difference between Atlanta and Miami: Miami is building condos, Atlanta is building apartments. The Miami condos will never be sold and existing owners as well as developers and banks are starting to sweat. The Atlanta apartments will be leased though perhaps for a bit less than projected. Here's why building apartments in Midtown or anywhere in Atlanta is a good deal:
1) Construction loan interest rates are low until at least after the election.
2) People can live in Midtown and elsewhere close-in and easily commute outward.
3) Rents are still cheaper than in practically any other major city.
4) The cost to buy is beyond the reach of younger people.
5) The synergies of living intown have greatly improved.

Comparing the real estate markets between Atlanta & Miami is like comparing apples to oranges.
To say that Miami condos will never be sold is quite a statement since the city/metro is still building which is proof of demand.

The financing is also different between apartments & condos where pre- sales leads to financing for condos and developers need to reach a certain percentage of sales before lenders will finance projects.

The difference between the 2005 bubble & 2016 is that most buyers in Miami now have to put 50% down required by developers and increase their deposits as construction progresses which is unheard of mostly in the US since most younger domestic buyers don't have those type of funds available for a down payment.
This is a very common financing technique in South America and foreign buyers are used to it.

Foreign investors keeps fueling the condo market.
Another factor is that Miami also has a low inventory of apartments and that has been a issue for a while now. This has led to many condo owners renting out their units instead to cover their costs.
Of course when foreign buyer's nations have political or economic upheaval Miami's real estate market suffers as well.
It's just two different markets that aren't really that comparable.

Anyways, nice to see more infill in Midtown !

[Libertarian]

Miami and NY are my two favorite American cities, and I really hope that both will resolve their inventory issues and do well with expensive condos. However I fear Miami has seen too much hot money on both the developer and buyer side. And now the buyers are drying up. Atlanta has a crappy history with condos so we don't need to worry about oversupply.

[Atlanta3000]

I just heard about this one from a friend. Awesome project!!!

INTERNATIONAL PLAZA: RETAIL/OFFICE/HOTEL
202 COURTLAND ST., ATLANTA, GA 30303


PROPERTY DESCRIPTION
International Plaza is a $75 Million, 25 Story high rise that will
have 50,000 SF of Restaurants, Retail, Health Club, Coffee
Shop and Skybar Rooftop lounge.

PROPERTY HIGHLIGHTS

*Prime location to attract sports, convention, hotel, student and government business
*Dual branded luxury hotel with Skybar
*50,000 Square Feet, 3 levels of commercial space
*Walk up street retail with valet parking
*Integrated parking deck
*High ceilings, back-lit and modern design

[DNR]

Originally Posted by Vaden

I hate everything about that PC "renovation." One thing I hate about Atlanta is how it latches like a leech onto every "new" fad coming down the pike while simultaneously self-hating it's own landmarks. More mature cities accept themselves. For example, you'd never hear of NYC trying to "update" or "renovate" Rockefeller Center. Rockefeller Center has a central courtyard too, and New Yorkers love it. EVERYTHING doesn't need changed. Peachtree Center's central plaza is nice with it's glass ceiling, flags, planters, and sculpture. Now it's all going to be ripped out for this silliness. It's like the teenager of cities-always trying to change itself to suit someone else's vision of what it needs to be like. Until you love yourself, you can't expect others to either.

It's not a street nor should it try to be one.

I agree.

Many of these "period" structures that represented a particular style with accuracy should retain their originality. The essence of what made them unique in the beginning is being glossed over for the sake of being “Fresh” or trendy.

The “Trash the Past – Look to the Future” mentality is to prevalent in the Atlanta area in many cases. The fact that Atlanta lost many of its early historical structures to Sherman’s whims should only drive the point home to preserve what remains.

Atlanta, Ga could take a few tips from the other Georgia city further south - Savannah, Ga – where historic structures are abundant, yet each structure is still viewed as an asset.

Heck, they even have an old power plant on the water front in Savannah where they are trying to incorporate two old giant smoke stacks into a new design for a hotel rather than demolish the structures. In the end, the history of the structures will make the place that much more unique - and even more marketable.

Atlanta should preserve its place in history as much as possible – it will pay off in the end.

[Frankster87]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I just heard about this one from a friend. Awesome project!!!

Thanks for sharing, this is awesome!! I love seeing the development continue to creep south. Downtown has so much potential.

I found a listing for the site too:

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/19919...linkcode=31060

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I just heard about this one from a friend. Awesome project!!!

This is pretty slick for downtown! I like it a lot. With Midtown filling in so much, maybe we are starting to see investment trickle back to Downtown? That would be awesome, as there are so many lots still available for development.

[tdawg]

The International Plaza proposal looks fantastic. I hope it comes to fruition.

[Frankster87]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

This is pretty slick for downtown! I like it a lot. With Midtown filling in so much, maybe we are starting to see investment trickle back to Downtown? That would be awesome, as there are so many lots still available for development.

We need The Stitch to become a reality. It would be huge for the renaissance of Downtown.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Vaden

I hate everything about that PC "renovation." One thing I hate about Atlanta is how it latches like a leech onto every "new" fad coming down the pike while simultaneously self-hating it's own landmarks. More mature cities accept themselves. For example, you'd never hear of NYC trying to "update" or "renovate" Rockefeller Center. Rockefeller Center has a central courtyard too, and New Yorkers love it. EVERYTHING doesn't need changed. Peachtree Center's central plaza is nice with it's glass ceiling, flags, planters, and sculpture. Now it's all going to be ripped out for this silliness. It's like the teenager of cities-always trying to change itself to suit someone else's vision of what it needs to be like. Until you love yourself, you can't expect others to either.

It's not a street nor should it try to be one.

Rockefeller Center in NYC was INDEED updated and renovated in 1998 by Beyer Blinder and Belle- the same firm working with Lord Aeck Sargant on Colony Square. Which was one of the reasons they won the project at Colony Square.

These projects have to compete with other retail markets and opening up the plaza to be more restaurant-centric at the street level will help pivot into a better urban space. The current configuration of the space is dead for a reason.



http://www.beyerblinderbelle.com/pro...efeller_center

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Rockefeller Center in NYC was INDEED updated and renovated in 1998 by Beyer Blinder and Belle- the same firm working with Lord Aeck Sargant on Colony Square. Which was one of the reasons they won the project at Colony Square.

These projects have to compete with other retail markets and opening up the plaza to be more restaurant-centric at the street level will help pivot into a better urban space. The current configuration of the space is dead for a reason.

http://www.beyerblinderbelle.com/pro...efeller_center

You beat me to it.

Originally Posted by Vaden

I hate everything about that PC "renovation." One thing I hate about Atlanta is how it latches like a leech onto every "new" fad coming down the pike while simultaneously self-hating it's own landmarks. More mature cities accept themselves. For example, you'd never hear of NYC trying to "update" or "renovate" Rockefeller Center. Rockefeller Center has a central courtyard too, and New Yorkers love it. EVERYTHING doesn't need changed. Peachtree Center's central plaza is nice with it's glass ceiling, flags, planters, and sculpture. Now it's all going to be ripped out for this silliness. It's like the teenager of cities-always trying to change itself to suit someone else's vision of what it needs to be like. Until you love yourself, you can't expect others to either.

It's not a street nor should it try to be one.

Whether this is true or not "Atlanta" doesn't get a vote on this renovation. This is a private enterprise doing something that they believe will enhance their property.
Peachtree Center is hardly comparable to Rockefeller Center. I don't know that anyone would call it beautiful and it certainly is not iconic.

[ATLontheRISE]

Originally Posted by bobdreamz

Comparing the real estate markets between Atlanta & Miami is like comparing apples to oranges.
To say that Miami condos will never be sold is quite a statement since the city/metro is still building which is proof of demand.

The financing is also different between apartments & condos where pre- sales leads to financing for condos and developers need to reach a certain percentage of sales before lenders will finance projects.

The difference between the 2005 bubble & 2016 is that most buyers in Miami now have to put 50% down required by developers and increase their deposits as construction progresses which is unheard of mostly in the US since most younger domestic buyers don't have those type of funds available for a down payment.
This is a very common financing technique in South America and foreign buyers are used to it.

Foreign investors keeps fueling the condo market.
Another factor is that Miami also has a low inventory of apartments and that has been a issue for a while now. This has led to many condo owners renting out their units instead to cover their costs.
Of course when foreign buyer's nations have political or economic upheaval Miami's real estate market suffers as well.
It's just two different markets that aren't really that comparable.

Anyways, nice to see more infill in Midtown !

I just got back from Miami yesterday. From the outside looking in, it looks bad. I was in a hotel downtown making observations. The balconies and lights at night were empty and off in a very large majority of the buildings. Many of the condos have pool areas which were empty. And the street traffic was calm. This isn't my area of expertise. But from a purely non scientific perspective , I would say that the condo market in Miami is not in good shape. They have a lot of foreign investment that has pushed this condo projects forward. They are betting that the market recovers.

[A-town]

I’ve never liked the Peachtree Center, it’s an aesthetics nightmare. The buildings are so ugly, dated and soulless. Only the Suntrust Plaza, Marriott Marquis and Westin look good, though I hate the large rectangle concrete block of a pedestal the hotel sits on. Because it’s so large it dates the entire Downtown skyline. And I honestly feel like it’s the main thing that’s holding Downtown back. All those city blocks it takes up and residential was never in the original plans. There are 6 buildings on the property that look exactly alike. They replicated the same ugly design like it was great. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be banished to the shadow realm, never to return. I’m so happy new developments are coming along that will hide it more. It’s time has come and gone. If it’s done right the first time we wouldn’t need the renovate it. It clearly wasn’t so here we are. I can keep going but I’ll stop for now.

[A-town]

Originally Posted by ATLontheRISE

I just got back from Miami yesterday. From the outside looking in, it looks bad. I was in a hotel downtown making observations. The balconies and lights at night were empty and off in a very large majority of the buildings. Many of the condos have pool areas which were empty. And the street traffic was calm. This isn't my area of expertise. But from a purely non scientific perspective , I would say that the condo market in Miami is not in good shape. They have a lot of foreign investment that has pushed this condo projects forward. They are betting that the market recovers.

I was in Miami earlier this year. The architecture of the buildings are second to none. But you're right that a lot of them are empty. The conclusion I came to is that these large buildings are built to launder drug money. They don't care about market demand they just need somewhere to park their cash. They've been doing it in Miami longer than we've been alive. Cocaine built the entire city and that legacy isn't going away anytime soon.

[BunkyWay]

I'll pile on. Peachtree Center is horrible, but not for its architecture (which was actually heralded at the time). Its purposeful lack of interaction with the street - blank walls, horrible pedestrian scales, sky bridges, pedestal parking - is its downfall. Even the subsequent renovations that have taken place to engage the sidewalk look awkward.

http://www.clatl.com/news/article/13...our-of-atlanta

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by Vaden

I hate everything about that PC "renovation." One thing I hate about Atlanta is how it latches like a leech onto every "new" fad coming down the pike while simultaneously self-hating it's own landmarks. More mature cities accept themselves. For example, you'd never hear of NYC trying to "update" or "renovate" Rockefeller Center. Rockefeller Center has a central courtyard too, and New Yorkers love it. EVERYTHING doesn't need changed. Peachtree Center's central plaza is nice with it's glass ceiling, flags, planters, and sculpture. Now it's all going to be ripped out for this silliness. It's like the teenager of cities-always trying to change itself to suit someone else's vision of what it needs to be like. Until you love yourself, you can't expect others to either.

It's not a street nor should it try to be one.

Sorry but Rockerfeller Center has been through several renovations during its lifetime, and it's not unusual for historic plazas and/or developments to undergo changes that will help make them more fitting for today's uses...does that ruin your theory or what?

This blanket generalization about what "Atlanta" does is pure nonsense. Every time someone comes up with one of these half-baked theories about how simple and backwards Atlanta is compared to other cities it's extremely easy to come up with a list of examples proving them wrong. Comments like the one above just show a lack of understanding about Atlanta and its history.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by A-town

I’ve never liked the Peachtree Center, it’s an aesthetics nightmare. The buildings are so ugly, dated and soulless. Only the Suntrust Plaza, Marriott Marquis and Westin look good, though I hate the large rectangle concrete block of a pedestal the hotel sits on. Because it’s so large it dates the entire Downtown skyline. And I honestly feel like it’s the main thing that’s holding Downtown back. All those city blocks it takes up and residential was never in the original plans. There are 6 buildings on the property that look exactly alike. They replicated the same ugly design like it was great. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be banished to the shadow realm, never to return. I’m so happy new developments are coming along that will hide it more. It’s time has come and gone. If it’s done right the first time we wouldn’t need the renovate it. It clearly wasn’t so here we are. I can keep going but I’ll stop for now.

I used to think the same thing about Peachtree Center...but now I think it's come back around and has become retro. No, not the fortress-style of the buildings or the uninviting public spaces, but the architecture in general. I am definitely on board with making the whole thing more welcoming and bright but I do hope they will leave the integrity of the design intact.

Some people forget that this WAS done right the first time - according to the styles that were popular then. It would be easy if we could look ahead and say "that won't be in style in 30 years so let's try something else" but unfortunately we are usually stuck with the prevailing designs of the day - and Atlanta's reign as the murder capital of the nation along with a negative perception of downtown gave rise to the "safety" of these fortresses that we now wish were more open and inviting. Who knew.