The Lower Churchill Project

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

Let'em ****ing separate, and then we can have Churchill Falls too.

Now, now... We shouldn't be surprised.
This is just a minority PQ government pandering to the minority of Quebecers who voted for them.

There are many in Quebec who are glad to see this clean form of energy being developed, actually. Many are surprised Harper is helping this project, considering it doesn't involve oil.

[jeddy1989]

oh they're sweating now hahaha they are not use to others getting together and loosening their control on the region .. oh well Quebec .. if they ever separated and we did .. it'd be nasty relations between countries hahah .. this is a joke of a country where regions fight to kill each others prosperity ..

oh and to say that federal money (which they obviously do not understand what a LOAN guarantee is) is not fair to go to a project in another province that is to a disadvantage to them and they are "open" to talks .. like F off!! it's a FEDERAL government even if they did subsidize .. umm they should look at their own projects! and all them yummy equalization payments they receive which i'm sure goes towards things that make them competitive with other provinces .. this federation disgusts me to be honest

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

oh they're sweating now hahaha they are not use to others getting together and loosening their control on the region .. oh well Quebec .. if they ever separated and we did .. it'd be nasty relations between countries hahah .. this is a joke of a country where regions fight to kill each others prosperity ..

oh and to say that federal money (which they obviously do not understand what a LOAN guarantee is) is not fair to go to a project in another province that is to a disadvantage to them and they are "open" to talks .. like F off!! it's a FEDERAL government even if they did subsidize .. umm they should look at their own projects! and all them yummy equalization payments they receive which i'm sure goes towards things that make them competitive with other provinces .. this federation disgusts me to be honest

Likewise. It's so frustrating to watch. It's like when I switched careers, from journalism to marketing, some of my relatives were all wide-eyed and, "Oh dear! You've got a union job! That's a BIG risk!", etc. They just... never took risks. I mean, some of them out around the bay literally built their homes in their parents' backyard. They cling to the status quo out of fear of not having firm ground beneath their feet. Well, the risk is - more often than not - worth it. Especially when the status quo is demeaning, diminishing, counter-productive, insulting, infuriating, annoying, frustrating, and on, and on, and on...

[AllBlack]

Quebec complaining that the federal government is supporting this project through a loan guarantee? Oh that's rich. What a situation where our federal government sat 40 years ago and watched (abetted?) while one province gained advantage over another for 75 fricking years. Where a province feels forced to select a route such as we've chosen, across two straits of water and three provinces to get power to market. I agree jeddy, this country is a joke.

I was up at Muskrat Falls a short while ago and the early works are proceeding nicely. And I have to say, the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians working on the project know exactly how significant this project is. It's a matter of pride to complete this job efficiently and safely, and to (symbolically at least) take the first steps in righting a wrong that's cast a shadow now for two generations.

[SignalHillHiker]

Wrong thread. Sorry!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

oh they're sweating now hahaha they are not use to others getting together and loosening their control on the region .. oh well Quebec .. if they ever separated and we did .. it'd be nasty relations between countries hahah .. this is a joke of a country where regions fight to kill each others prosperity ..

oh and to say that federal money (which they obviously do not understand what a LOAN guarantee is) is not fair to go to a project in another province that is to a disadvantage to them and they are "open" to talks .. like F off!! it's a FEDERAL government even if they did subsidize .. umm they should look at their own projects! and all them yummy equalization payments they receive which i'm sure goes towards things that make them competitive with other provinces .. this federation disgusts me to be honest

You guys are breakin' my heart here...

Let's not lump all Quebecers together into what we consider to be self-serving separatists, please. The context of this is that the PQ is a minority government (and separatists are an even smaller minority).

I realise this news must be frustrating for you, but even the PQ government is admitting they haven't much of an argument for legal action. They are making noise mostly so that Quebec extremists who voted for them are seeing them make an attempt in their interests.

And the entire federation of Canada shouldn't be based on a minority of attitudes that exist in Quebec. Canada is much bigger, much more complex, and much more diverse than the issue of equalisation transfers and apparent Quebec ungratefulness.

I, for one, am thankful for the body of laws under which my rights are protected -- which our united federation created. I am thankful for our socialised healthcare and school systems. And I'm extremely thankful that a province can be a 'have-not', such as Newfoundland and Labrador, and with help from the Federation can eventually work toward being a 'have' and achieve that success, such as Newfoundland and Labrador.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Now, now... We shouldn't be surprised.
This is just a minority PQ government pandering to the minority of Quebecers who voted for them.

That is one part of it, but something else to keep in mind is that the PQ does not want Canada to work smoothly. They are deliberately antagonistic and unreasonable. They are perfectly happy to piss off other provinces; there's a chance it might give Quebec a better deal and poor relations work in their favour. Quebeckers as a whole may not even be particularly aware of what their government is doing. A lot of people in Quebec don't seem to know much about Churchill Falls either. It's not the big deal there that it is in Newfoundland.

I think the correct response here is to ignore Quebec's provincial government and appreciate the fact that the federal government is willing to back a deal that is good for Atlantic Canada.

[JHikka]

The Quebec government was opposed to this prior to PQ's election, were they not? (the project as a whole and not just the loan guarantee)

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

The Quebec government was opposed to this prior to PQ's election, were they not? (the project as a whole and not just the loan guarantee)

yup


and Ryejay I'm refering to the governments of quebec not the people, there are many great people in Quebec and if the governments would frig off trying to screw each other over, they'd see that we have a lot in common with Quebec (I'd say the two odd balls in the federation culturally)

I'm grateful for things that have been learned in the Canadian federation as well.. and I agree with what you've said however I have to mention that us becoming a "have" province had nothing to do with the federation it was actually kind of the opposite, it was separating the responsibilities and farthing ourselves from the federal government and taking control over our resources, also the whole change that has happened in NL has had the slogan of "self reliance"

But I do completely understand that it's not the people, it's the government. you should hear our throne speeches from say the second term Danny was in haha very entertaining and patriotic.. Ottawa bashing and major Quebec bashing, as well as taking back the control of our own destiny in many other countries this would be separatism talk

oh as well you are spot on with the PQ just wanting to create a conflicting environment, it's a tactic for creating the case for independence

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

I'm grateful for things that have been learned in the Canadian federation as well.. and I agree with what you've said however I have to mention that us becoming a "have" province had nothing to do with the federation it was actually kind of the opposite, it was separating the responsibilities and farthing ourselves from the federal government and taking control over our resources, also the whole change that has happened in NL has had the slogan of "self reliance."

So Newfoundland and Labrador could have worked their way toward an apparent self-reliance without equalisation transfers in the past?...

That's a delusional opinion, I must say. NL used to be poor. I'm very relieved that it is no longer; however, some of the recent attitudes of ignorance I've seen in NL rival those of ungrateful Quebecers. It's extremely disappointing.

And if you wanted distance from the federal government, you are contradicting yourself with this Lower Churchill Project.

Regardless of the minority of negative and ungrateful attitudes in Newfoundland and Labrador, Quebec, or any other province -- I appreciate that Canada is holding together because it is in all of our long-term interests, in a future that seems increasingly uncertain.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

So Newfoundland and Labrador could have worked their way toward an apparent self-reliance without equalisation transfers in the past?...

That's a delusional opinion, I must say. NL used to be poor. I'm very relieved that it is no longer; however, some of the recent attitudes of ignorance I've seen in NL rival those of ungrateful Quebecers. It's extremely disappointing.

And if you wanted distance from the federal government, you are contradicting yourself with this Lower Churchill Project.

Regardless of the minority of negative and ungrateful attitudes in Newfoundland and Labrador, Quebec, or any other province -- I appreciate that Canada is holding together because it is in all of our long-term interests, in a future that seems increasingly uncertain.

We were never as poor as mainlanders think, and they often inexplicably fail to realize how poor they were at that time too. We had money in the bank when we joined Canada. The debt Canada forgave was British war debt.

And yes, we would have reached this point and better without Canada. And we wouldn't have lost as much as we did - from our railway to our fishery to our resettled communities.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

That is one part of it, but something else to keep in mind is that the PQ does not want Canada to work smoothly. They are deliberately antagonistic and unreasonable. They are perfectly happy to piss off other provinces; there's a chance it might give Quebec a better deal and poor relations work in their favour. Quebeckers as a whole may not even be particularly aware of what their government is doing. A lot of people in Quebec don't seem to know much about Churchill Falls either. It's not the big deal there that it is in Newfoundland.

I think the correct response here is to ignore Quebec's provincial government and appreciate the fact that the federal government is willing to back a deal that is good for Atlantic Canada.

Which is why I'm objecting to the overreactions on this forum.

Moans from the PQ government shouldn't send anyone into an anti-Quebec frenzy. Just let the PQ government live out its short, miserable life span...

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

We were never as poor as mainlanders think, and they often inexplicably fail to realize how poor they were at that time too. We had money in the bank when we joined Canada. The debt Canada forgave was British war debt.

And yes, we would have reached this point and better without Canada. And we wouldn't have lost as much as we did - from our railway to our fishery to our resettled communities.

I'm interested in reading about your position. If you may, could you please send me any links where I could explore the information to which you're referring, about Canada causing economic harm to Newfoundland and Labrador?

And let me be clear: as a 'mainlander' (which is odd for me to call myself I might add), I've never considered NL to be dirt poor, nor did anyone I know. People understood it was a have-not province -- but all of the Maritimes are have-nots, and we don't consider ourselves dirt poor.

Hell, New Brunswick often considers itself lavish.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

We were never as poor as mainlanders think, and they often inexplicably fail to realize how poor they were at that time too. We had money in the bank when we joined Canada. The debt Canada forgave was British war debt.

And yes, we would have reached this point and better without Canada. And we wouldn't have lost as much as we did - from our railway to our fishery to our resettled communities.

Our railway would still not have been effective whether we had joined Canada or not. Resettlement was originally started by the provincial government and it was not til a number of years later that the federal government got involved. (there should be far more resettled communities anyways)

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

I'm grateful for things that have been learned in the Canadian federation as well.. and I agree with what you've said however I have to mention that us becoming a "have" province had nothing to do with the federation it was actually kind of the opposite, it was separating the responsibilities and farthing ourselves from the federal government and taking control over our resources, also the whole change that has happened in NL has had the slogan of "self reliance"

Not really. Offshore resources are technically federal jurisdiction so if it was not for Peckford and Mulroney negotiating the Atlantic Accord Newfoundland and Labrador would not have seen the benefits we have from offshore oil.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

We were never as poor as mainlanders think, and they often inexplicably fail to realize how poor they were at that time too. We had money in the bank when we joined Canada. The debt Canada forgave was British war debt.

And yes, we would have reached this point and better without Canada. And we wouldn't have lost as much as we did - from our railway to our fishery to our resettled communities.

There might have been money in the bank, but the people of Newfoundland were not looked after in any way comparable to the higher standards of living achieved after Confederation. St.John's might have been ok, but the majority were not.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Our railway would still not have been effective whether we had joined Canada or not. Resettlement was originally started by the provincial government and it was not til a number of years later that the federal government got involved. (there should be far more resettled communities anyways)

Resettlement actually was started in some areas by the people themselves, long before the official resettlement program. There was some resettlement happening back in the 1800's and it continued up until the 1950's. Smallwood was only continuing and expediting a process that had already started, albeit a bit too zealously.

[AllBlack]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I'm interested in reading about your position. If you may, could you please send me any links where I could explore the information to which you're referring, about Canada causing economic harm to Newfoundland and Labrador?

And let me be clear: as a 'mainlander' (which is odd for me to call myself I might add), I've never considered NL to be dirt poor, nor did anyone I know. People understood it was a have-not province -- but all of the Maritimes are have-nots, and we don't consider ourselves dirt poor.

Hell, New Brunswick often considers itself lavish.

I won't delve into the debate over who caused more economic harm to whom (mostly because I've heard the arguments and find them to be speculative at best and a bit irrelevant), but a nice background read is the summary report from the "Royal Commission on Renewing and Strengthening Our Place in Canada" (link below). This report is almost a decade old now (circa 2003) and was written at a time when Newfoundland and Labrador was still a have-not province with crippling deficits and massive outmigration. For a summary report it's kind of lengthy, however there is much info related to the attitudes and culture of our people (pre and post Confederation) and the effects to both parties of our union with Canada. Also touches on the Churchill Falls agreement and its effect on the Newfoundland psyche.

I haven't read it in awhile. I think I'll take another look myself.

http://www.exec.gov.nl.ca/royalcomm/...df/summary.pdf

And the full report:

http://www.exec.gov.nl.ca/royalcomm/...t/default.html

[AllBlack]

Originally Posted by Architype

Resettlement actually was started in some areas by the people themselves, long before the official resettlement program. There was some resettlement happening back in the 1800's and it continued up until the 1950's. Smallwood was only continuing a process that had already started, albeit a bit too agressively.

That's so true Architype. Eking out a livelihood in pre-Confederation rural Newfoundland was tough to say the least and small communities were often an epidemic or marine disaster away from extinction. My father was born in Langue de Cerf in Fortune Bay. The last family moved from Langue de Cerf two years before Confederation, in 1947. A link that gives some of its history: (the same could be written for many other communities)

http://www.polemicandparadox.com/200...e-de-cerf.html

[jeddy1989]

And the 2 cents from the opposition parties

Opposition Reacts to Muskrat Announcement

Both Opposition parties agree the project should not be sanctioned given what is in hand. Liberal Leader Dwight Ball says there are still outstanding questions about Emera's commitment to the project.
Ball says the term sheet falls short of what he expected, and he says he is sure it is not where the Premier expected it to be as she has been promising that a deal would be done for months.
NDP Leader Lorraine Michael is calling on the Premier to remove her private member's motion on the project from the agenda of the House of Assembly.
Michael says she does not understand why the province is pushing so quickly to get it done when Emera has until 2014 to decide if they will continue with the Maritime link. She says she is surprised the federal government would even go ahead with the term sheet knowing there is a court case going on. Michael says the whole thing continues to be a crazy farce.
Both parties maintain the final cost estimates should be sent back to the PUB for review.

http://www.vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?...28776&latest=1



and from Nova Scotia

N.S. opposition welcomes federal involvement

A little more than two years after N.S. Premier Darrell Dexter announced hydroelectric power from Labrador would be Nova Scotia’s “CPR,” the project officially got another big boost Friday.
Dexter, who joined Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Happy Valley-Goose Bay for the pledge of a federal loan guarantee, said the assistance will save ratepayers in Nova Scotia more than $100 million.
“Quite simply, this project will transform the energy landscape of Nova Scotia and the entire Atlantic region,” said Dexter’s prepared text from the event.
Dexter said the loan guarantee will help reduce project costs as much as possible.
Bringing power from the Lower Churchill River in Labrador to Newfoundland and then on to Cape Breton by subsea cable was estimated to cost $6.2 billion when Dexter joined Danny Williams, then the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, in St. John’s to unveil the project on Nov. 18, 2010.
The Maritime Link portion — the cable from Newfoundland to Cape Breton — had a price tag of $1.2 billion, but the estimate now is $1.3 billion to $1.5 billion, Emera president Chris Huskilson said Friday.
The costs in Newfoundland and Labrador have also risen.
Dexter has been unwavering in his support for the project as the opposition parties have questioned the unknown cost of electricity to ratepayers.
On Friday, the premier said his faith hasn’t been shaken.
“It will outperform any other alternative for Nova Scotia ratepayers, and I’m sure the project will go ahead,” Dexter said in a conference call.
He said he doesn’t expect Quebec’s complaints that federal support for the project is unfair will thwart its development.
“The only effect that will have in Atlantic Canada is that it will strengthen our resolve to ensure the project is completed,” he said.
Progressive Conservative Leader Jamie Baillie said he welcomes the savings from the federal loan guarantee, but Dexter hasn’t shown this is the best option to generate electricity.
“Just like when you buy a car and go to the bank, they don’t ask you which car, or if you’ve considered all the other cars. You have to do that for yourself,” Baillie said.
“I believe that the premier should have had the costs identified and the price to Nova Scotians known before he signed on to the project himself. He has gone about this exactly backwards.”
Huskilson said projected costs for ratepayers will be included when the Maritime Link application goes before the Nova Scotia Utility and Review Board. That could happen before the end of the month.
Liberal Leader Stephen McNeil said it’s good to see the federal assistance, but he thinks the escalating cost of the project will eat up the savings stemming from the loan guarantee.
He also said he wants to see what the projected impact on consumers’ power bills would be, and a comparison to other sources of electricity.

http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Loca...-involvement/1