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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2020, 3:33 AM
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Alberta has made $240.000 billion contribution to equalization..

Alberta has made $240.000 billion contribution to equalization between 2007 and 2018
I always wonder that What could be done if this money remained in Alberta ?
What would have changed if this money remained in Alberta?

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Last edited by YUNEMUS; Jul 25, 2020 at 4:36 AM.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2020, 12:22 PM
the.tru.albertan the.tru.albertan is offline
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How much did we get back from the Feds thru transfers?
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  #3  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2020, 1:00 PM
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Originally Posted by the.tru.albertan View Post
How much did we get back from the Feds thru transfers?
Here's Stats Canada figures for the amount of money collected in Alberta by the Feds and what they spent (in the form of services provided, purchases, wages or transfers) in Alberta:



https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...rDisplay=false
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  #4  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2020, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by YUNEMUS View Post
I always wonder that What could be done if this money remained in Alberta ?
What would have changed if this money remained in Alberta?
A larger economy and a debt-free and deficit-free Government of Alberta.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2020, 10:53 PM
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A larger economy and a debt-free and deficit-free Government of Alberta.
Doubtful. Equalization is distributed from of the federal government tax pool. If the program didn't exist, then in theory every Albertan would have just slightly more money in their bank account, and the Provincial Gov't would likely be in the exact same position as it is today (dependent on O&G royalties to fill the coffers). The Alberta Government doesn't send money, they aren't involved in the process at all.
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Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 3:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
Doubtful. Equalization is distributed from of the federal government tax pool. If the program didn't exist, then in theory every Albertan would have just slightly more money in their bank account, and the Provincial Gov't would likely be in the exact same position as it is today (dependent on O&G royalties to fill the coffers). The Alberta Government doesn't send money, they aren't involved in the process at all.


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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
A larger economy and a debt-free and deficit-free Government of Alberta.
So you think equalization payments are the reason Alberta is in debt?

The OP mentioned the years 2007-2018. For a large chunk of those years (2004-2015), Alberta was already debt-free. What happened? 2016, 2017 and 2018 are the years with the lowest transfers from Alberta to Ottawa in that list, and yet Alberta's deficit and debt skyrocketed those years.
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Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 4:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
Doubtful. Equalization is distributed from of the federal government tax pool. If the program didn't exist, then in theory every Albertan would have just slightly more money in their bank account, and the Provincial Gov't would likely be in the exact same position as it is today (dependent on O&G royalties to fill the coffers). The Alberta Government doesn't send money, they aren't involved in the process at all.
Where are you getting that every Albertan would have "just slightly more money in their bank account" from? Depending on the year it would be about $4,500 to $5,000 per person on average. For a family of four that's close to $20K. Yeah, everyone pays the same federal tax rates. That's not the problem. The problem is that Albertan's get so little back compared to say Quebec. Albertan's financing a significant percentage of the extortion money paid to Quebec each year is not helpful at all to Alberta. Take Equalization out of the picture and Alberta would be much better off including the government.
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Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 5:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
Doubtful. Equalization is distributed from of the federal government tax pool. If the program didn't exist, then in theory every Albertan would have just slightly more money in their bank account
I'm basing my response off YUNEMUS's question about if the Federal revenues now needed to pay for equalization remained in Alberta.

Without equalization to pay for, the Federal Government would not need the same tax rates at the higher income brackets (which affect Albertan taxpayers at a disproportionate rate), leaving that potential revenue for the Government of Alberta to take in part or all, easily enough to bolster its rainy day fund during the good times and still enough to account for today's deficits.

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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
The OP mentioned the years 2007-2018. For a large chunk of those years (2004-2015), Alberta was already debt-free. What happened? 2016, 2017 and 2018 are the years with the lowest transfers from Alberta to Ottawa in that list, and yet Alberta's deficit and debt skyrocketed those years.
The story of the ant and grasshopper turns out different if the ant had to share much of its surpluses from the summer, leaving it less savings to draw on during the winter.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 3:50 PM
the.tru.albertan the.tru.albertan is offline
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my personal opinion on the Equalization program is....

I don't like it. lol.

But really, I pay income taxes to the Feds, of which some goes into Equalization, which is then spent in the HRM... or Quebec City. So here I am, inputting my time and energy into the Alberta GDP, being taxed on that time, and then the taxes aren't even spent in my local area, my province, not even Western Canada.

It would actually be an easier pill to swallow if the province gave oil revenues into equalization and the Feds leave my taxes alone, allocated back to the province of Alberta in transfers to be spent here.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 6:28 PM
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This year, for the first time since 1965, federal revenues in Alberta will be lower than their expenditures, thanks to transfers allocated to the provinces because of COVID-19. Federal spending will increase by more than $ 6,700 per Albertan, while the national average will be just over $ 6,300.

When a province's economy is strong and its revenues are high, it will naturally contribute more than other provinces. The reverse is true when conditions deteriorate. And what do you know, conditions right now are pretty bad, and here Alberta is benefiting the most from the Federal, since it's economy has been impacted the most.

It shows the value of the federal government and of the federation. Now is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But it has its benefits.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Where are you getting that every Albertan would have "just slightly more money in their bank account" from? Depending on the year it would be about $4,500 to $5,000 per person on average. For a family of four that's close to $20K. Yeah, everyone pays the same federal tax rates. That's not the problem. The problem is that Albertan's get so little back compared to say Quebec. Albertan's financing a significant percentage of the extortion money paid to Quebec each year is not helpful at all to Alberta. Take Equalization out of the picture and Alberta would be much better off including the government.
I haven't looked at the numbers, just have a basic understanding of how the program works. What is the source showing we contribute $4-5000 each per year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
I'm basing my response off YUNEMUS's question about if the Federal revenues now needed to pay for equalization remained in Alberta.

Without equalization to pay for, the Federal Government would not need the same tax rates at the higher income brackets (which affect Albertan taxpayers at a disproportionate rate), leaving that potential revenue for the Government of Alberta to take in part or all, easily enough to bolster its rainy day fund during the good times and still enough to account for today's deficits.
So if Equalization weren't a thing, you actually think the Conservative Provincial Government would raise their taxes? This is a federal thing, the Province wouldn't change a single thing if the program didn't exist.

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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
This year, for the first time since 1965, federal revenues in Alberta will be lower than their expenditures, thanks to transfers allocated to the provinces because of COVID-19. Federal spending will increase by more than $ 6,700 per Albertan, while the national average will be just over $ 6,300.

When a province's economy is strong and its revenues are high, it will naturally contribute more than other provinces. The reverse is true when conditions deteriorate. And what do you know, conditions right now are pretty bad, and here Alberta is benefiting the most from the Federal, since it's economy has been impacted the most.

It shows the value of the federal government and of the federation. Now is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But it has its benefits.
Good thing Albertans want to axe the program... lol
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  #12  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
I haven't looked at the numbers, just have a basic understanding of how the program works. What is the source showing we contribute $4-5000 each per year?
Net contribution divided by population.

Quote:
So if Equalization weren't a thing, you actually think the Conservative Provincial Government would raise their taxes? This is a federal thing, the Province wouldn't change a single thing if the program didn't exist.
With significantly more money available for Albertans to spend you don't think that would be a major boost to the economy? If implemented correctly and lower income individuals were exempt, I believe Albertans would even be okay with a provincial sales tax to help stabilize provincial revenues.

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Good thing Albertans want to axe the program... lol
LOL! An extra $400 is still going to leave us way behind what other provinces are getting per capita.
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Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
I haven't looked at the numbers, just have a basic understanding of how the program works. What is the source showing we contribute $4-5000 each per year?
From the Stats Canada balance of payments information. For the 2007-2018 period, Alberta had an average negative balance of payments of $19.987B/year. Here's a chart that compares the various provinces in 2017, where Alberta is the clear outlier:



https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebs...701E#show/hide


Quote:
So if Equalization weren't a thing, you actually think the Conservative Provincial Government would raise their taxes? This is a federal thing, the Province wouldn't change a single thing if the program didn't exist.
Maybe it won't, but taking even some of that freed up $20+B in revenue potential will be very tempting. Just like when the GoA made changes to the Education portion of Property Taxes that meant it didn't need as much, the City of Calgary snapped up that newly freed up tax room to pay for the Green Line.

Quote:
Good thing Albertans want to axe the program... lol
The extraordinary COVID spending has nothing to do with equalization, and even with that boost, per-capita Federal spending in Alberta will still be the lowest in the country (and revenue still the highest).

With the COVID spending for 2020, Alberta may have a positive balance of payments of ~$10-15B, but Quebec will probably have a positive balance of payments of $50-60B. The spending isn't from better-off provinces to help Alberta, it's money borrowed from the future (with likely Albertans again shouldering a larger than average burden) to pay for today.

Last edited by accord1999; Jul 28, 2020 at 8:05 PM.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2020, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post

With significantly more money available for Albertans to spend you don't think that would be a major boost to the economy? If implemented correctly and lower income individuals were exempt, I believe Albertans would even be okay with a provincial sales tax to help stabilize provincial revenues.
Never said anything about the economy, just said that a conservative government won't raise taxes because they can, that goes against everything they stand for. And Conservative Albertans will never accept a PST (though I think we should have one right now), that's a major factor in the supposed "Alberta Advantage"



Quote:
LOL! An extra $400 is still going to leave us way behind what other provinces are getting per capita.
Fair enough, nice to see that some change is happening though and we aren't shouldering the whole load. If we end up as net payers instead of payees, then it just goes to show that we still earn more per capita than the rest of the country and we shouldn't need extra revenue to level the playing field.
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Old Posted Jul 29, 2020, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
Never said anything about the economy, just said that a conservative government won't raise taxes because they can, that goes against everything they stand for. And Conservative Albertans will never accept a PST (though I think we should have one right now), that's a major factor in the supposed "Alberta Advantage"



Fair enough, nice to see that some change is happening though and we aren't shouldering the whole load. If we end up as net payers instead of payees, then it just goes to show that we still earn more per capita than the rest of the country and we shouldn't need extra revenue to level the playing field.
There's been surveys done over the last few years that show Albertans would accept a sales tax if it was balanced out be either a big increase in the personal exemption or no income tax. IIRC Jack Mintz has proposed both and he has the ear of the current government. If lower income people were shielded from a sales tax I think most people would go for such a tax coupled with either no income tax or one that doesn't kick into ~$70K.
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Old Posted Aug 7, 2020, 2:23 PM
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Old Posted Aug 9, 2020, 7:19 PM
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Wow. This thread can only become a dumpster fire.
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Old Posted Sep 28, 2020, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post




So you think equalization payments are the reason Alberta is in debt?

The OP mentioned the years 2007-2018. For a large chunk of those years (2004-2015), Alberta was already debt-free. What happened? 2016, 2017 and 2018 are the years with the lowest transfers from Alberta to Ottawa in that list, and yet Alberta's deficit and debt skyrocketed those years.
Alberta has never actually been debt free, yes, there have been years where the province had more assets then debts but those debts were never ever paid off.
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Old Posted Sep 29, 2020, 6:10 AM
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Originally Posted by YUNEMUS View Post
Alberta has made $240.000 billion contribution to equalization between 2007 and 2018
I always wonder that What could be done if this money remained in Alberta ?
What would have changed if this money remained in Alberta?


Just a quick question. Have these number been normalized for the money the government spends outside of Canada? The federal government has no shortage of embassies, trade missions, military commitments etc. that is not spent in any province.

Many of the federal government spending are with large national service providers. For example Air Canada, WestJet, IBM, Purolator, KPMG, etc. How many of these are booked in Ottawa or Gatineau because that is where the local office that administers the account is located while at the same time the salaries are paying for people in other parts of the country?

On the revenue side, have these numbers been normalized for corporate tax returns in some way? For example do these number book WestJet and CP tax contribution to Alberta because that is the province their corporate return is filled or does it try to allocate that tax revenue based on the regions where the companies have operations?
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