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  #241  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
Thanks for this insight.





But it is still a destination for my wife for her cross border shopping ventures.
Shopping in Massena, NY? What's there that you can't get in Canada??
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  #242  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 1:35 AM
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Shopping in Massena, NY? What's there that you can't get in Canada??
American chains that don't exist in Canada
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  #243  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 4:25 AM
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Shopping in Massena, NY? What's there that you can't get in Canada??
orange crystal light
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  #244  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 4:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
The st. Lawrence seaway didn't open until 1959. That's recent history.

Prior to it opening, the st. Lawrence river was only navigable to ocean-going ships up to montreal, where the Lachine Rapids made navigation further upstream by large ships impossible (which is a big reason why montreal became montreal). So, in the pre-seaway era, no part of the US was on the navigable part of the st. Lawrence, hence no major US port city ever developed on it.
Actually that's not true, there were small ocean-going ships that could pass through the Lachine Canal and earlier version of the Welland Canal, such as Dutch ship Prins Willem V which sank near Milwaukee's harbour.

The St Lawrence Seaway did increase the size of the ships that could pass through, although it still can't handle the typical ocean going cargo ship which is general wider and deeper.

Most "lake freighters" still don't go into the ocean and most "ocean freighters" don't go into the Great Lakes.

There were also plenty of American cities on the Great Lakes that functioned as inland ports thanks to various canals connecting them to the ocean such as Cleveland, Chicago and Buffalo, although their importance as inland ports declined as railways started getting built and many canals weren't upgraded to handle boats larger than a barge.
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  #245  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 5:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
The open land separating Mississauga, Oakville, and Milton is all greenbelt, yes? I think Toronto would've been better off having more sprawly suburbs with homes on bigger lots and more trees/green space similar to Chicago or Detroit. I find the new sprawl in places like Brampton and Vaughn really cringeworthy... and that's coming from a SoCal guy.
What about an Inland Empire-like analog for Toronto's suburbs, if we're going the SoCal route?
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  #246  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 2:36 PM
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What about an Inland Empire-like analog for Toronto's suburbs, if we're going the SoCal route?
Inland Empire would be a large MSA if it stood alone all by itself and wasn't connected to OC/LA. It's larger than Detroit, Seattle, Minneapolis, San Diego, Tampa, Denver, St. Louis, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Vegas etc.

Heck it only has 1.7 million less people than the GTA.

-----

While we're talking about the Inland Empire, Corona, CA is a great I.E. city. Leafy green, nestled against the mountains. Older established neighborhoods. No high rises or commie blocks.

Great mobility: freeway access to LA/OC/IE points of interest. Not too far from ONT - Ontario International Airport . Metro Link stations serving two lines to: Downtown L.A. and Orange County.

https://goo.gl/maps/32X1VJKy3z4eMwFLA
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  #247  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
The open land separating Mississauga, Oakville, and Milton is all greenbelt, yes? I think Toronto would've been better off having more sprawly suburbs with homes on bigger lots and more trees/green space similar to Chicago or Detroit. I find the new sprawl in places like Brampton and Vaughn really cringeworthy... and that's coming from a SoCal guy.
The lack of trees is partly due to the subdivisions being relatively new and having been built on farmland that had no trees. I do think there is a bit too much land dedicated to asphalt though, there's no need to have both ample off-street and on-street parking.

Despite that you do have some neighbourhoods making an effort with street trees.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.57516...7i16384!8i8192

Ash borer disease has definitely taken a toll on street trees though.


Regarding Milton specifically, I think the reason that land is undeveloped mostly has to do with water infrastructure. Milton's population was basically capped in the 80s and 90s when the municipal water supply was from ground water, but then they built a big pipe to connect to the Lake Ontario water supply which is why the growth exploded in the last 15-20 years.

Maybe for some reason I guess Mississauga wouldn't let them connect to their water supply and buy water from them to build subdivisions along the Mississauga border? idk...

Anyways, now that Milton is booming most of that land between Milton, Mississauga and Oakville will be getting filled up.
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  #248  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Shopping in Massena, NY? What's there that you can't get in Canada??
There are tons of Ontario plates in Metro Detroit shopping malls. Granted, it may just be that Detroit is a large metro, and so has stuff Windsor and environs don't.

But Canada doesn't have some common U.S. chains, like Target, Meijer, Trader Joes. High end U.S. chains like Nordstrom, Saks and Whole Foods just entered Canada a few years ago.
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  #249  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 4:19 PM
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And then there’s bargain shopping.
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  #250  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 6:24 PM
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There's a big difference between saying "who should be living in the 905" vs "who otherwise would be living in the 905." The latter I would agree with but the former I would 100% disagree with. Yes it tends to be more expensive to re-develop and densify existing built areas compared to developing greenfields. But often the things that are cheaper are not the things that are better and this is most certainly one of those cases. The problem is that a lot of north american cities developed with overly low density (in the last century at least) and this now needs to be retrofitted - not only for the sake of the design and aesthetics of the city, but for the practical aspects of city function such as avoiding the costs of serving low density areas with infrastructure and allowing people to access jobs and amenities without long wasteful drives. The higher prices is what prompts enough construction to be built in central areas to house the increasing population. That's not the problem - that's the solution. That's how you attract developers to provide more supply. Yes higher prices is not fun, but problems (and the process of solving them) have a cost and it's obviously a cost we can afford because if not, you just see rising homelessness instead of rising prices.

Complaining about the cost associated with correcting this type of problem is like complaining about the bother of cleaning up after a natural disaster. Sure if you don't bother cleaning it up you'll save yourself some effort but then you have the equal or greater problem of it not getting cleaned up. In the case of the greenbelt that was created to clean up the problem of increasing suburban sprawl, fixing a major problem of accommodating people within the existing urban form is expensive but if we don't pay for it we'll have all the associated problems of suburban sprawl. The only solution that would have truly avoided all this would have been to have built more densely in the first place, ie not have so much land devoted to detached SFH between downtown and the greenbelt. Then we'd still be building on greenfield but not near reaching the greenbelt boundary still. After all, if the city proper of Toronto had the density about 3/4 of Brooklyn, it could house the entire population of the GTA.

I think the solution lies somewhere in the middle. I think we should be intensifying and fast-tracking laneway housing within the 416 but also allowing for wealthy estate home, middle class SFH subdivision development in the 905 by loosening restrictions on the greenbelt in non productive agricultural areas , industrial lands that haven't been developed, anywhere that the water table wouldn't get affected. And of course, I also believe the province should greenlight midrise and high density development all along major arterials like Major Mackenzie or Teston etc.

If no estate homes are permitted, big luxury tract homes could very quickly become overvalued. If big luxury tract homes are not permitted, you could very well see medium size tract homes become overvalued and selling for millions of dollars. If medium size tract homes are not allowed you could very well see new townhomes values inflate to millions of dollars creating an even more terrifying housing market. etc etc

I'd also argue it's the speculation and red tape adding 200k to the cost of a new SFH in the suburbs that caused so many suburban people to start considering living in the city close to work. And this made my rental apartment hunting a complete nightmare.
I could very well be homeless myself if I didnt get lucky with finding my basement suite.

I think a healthy real estate market should have lots of supply with as many different housing options as possible (big acreage estate homes, subdivision homes, townhomes, stacked townhomes and midrise/highrises all along the arterials throughout the GTHA that separate these low density areas)

And of course, the province should step in and remove restrictions that prevent the building of basement suites/condos. This, in my opinion, might be the biggest difference maker in ending involuntary homelessness in addition to some form of a negative income tax or UBI.

I believe part all middle class greenfield SFH development should be within close proximity of designated transit and high density commercial arterials. The key for this is not red tape on the actual SFH development but the government should up-zone dozens of arterials in the 905 for midrise and high rise mixed use development so that they will eventually become transit corridors accessible to everyone. If the government overrides local planning and NIMBYs by greenlighting for high density mixed use arterials in suburban areas (for example 12-20 stories all along Teston Road ) people in a suburban SFH enclave while enjoying the options of an urban GTHA without the condo fees or high prices.

If you are not building all types of housing you end up with markets and homelessness like in Vancouver, London, SF etc.
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  #251  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2019, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
The lack of trees is partly due to the subdivisions being relatively new and having been built on farmland that had no trees. I do think there is a bit too much land dedicated to asphalt though, there's no need to have both ample off-street and on-street parking.
But weren't present-day suburban Chicagoland and Metro Detroit basically developed on terrain not unlike the exurban Toronto farmland you speak of (flat, open space with a few forested areas here and there)?

And what's with the weird design quirk of streets having a sidewalk on one side but not the other? That's really odd.
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  #252  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2019, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
But weren't present-day suburban Chicagoland and Metro Detroit basically developed on terrain not unlike the exurban Toronto farmland you speak of (flat, open space with a few forested areas here and there)?

And what's with the weird design quirk of streets having a sidewalk on one side but not the other? That's really odd.
At least there is a sidewalk. That would be on more minor streets. Busy streets will have sidewalks on both sides.
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  #253  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2019, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Shopping in Massena, NY? What's there that you can't get in Canada??
Syracuse I get but tiny Massena for stuff you can't get in Canada is a huge stretch.

The basics of life are cheaper in Massena though, if you live in Cornwall.
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  #254  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2019, 1:51 PM
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Actually that's not true, there were small ocean-going ships that could pass through the Lachine Canal and earlier version of the Welland Canal, such as Dutch ship Prins Willem V which sank near Milwaukee's harbour.
i should have more clearly specified "large ocean going ships".

yes the lachine rapids were bypassed by canals as early as 1824, but the locks were tiny. and every time the lock sizes were upgraded over the decades, they quickly became too small for the ever increasing sizes of ocean-going cargo ships. this poor planning continued right up until the building of the st. lawrence seaway in 1959 where the 750' lock chambers were considered adequate at the time, but were soon undersized for ocean-going cargo vessels.

the canal and locking of the st. lawrence is a classic example of the peril of building infrastructure for the needs of today, instead of anticipating and building for the needs of tomorrow.

but even with bigger locks earlier, montreal was always going to be a major choke point on the st. lawrence, and was almost predestined by geography to become a significant port and industrial center.
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  #255  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2019, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Hudson Yards Developer Plans One of Canada’s Biggest Projects

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ggest-projects



I want to like it but I'm not a fan of what's been presented thus far. It reminds me of one of the initial renderings for 1 Bloor East that was thankfully discarded. The quality will likely be decent but it just looks tacky. It would look better in London or Milan.

Parks are supposed to be relaxing yet that one is a busy jumbled mess. So many stairs and so many gimmicks. Is this a jungle gym for adults who never grew up? A lawn with a row of trees on the perimeter would be vastly better than what they're presenting.
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  #256  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2019, 4:21 PM
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I wish I had a dollar for every quarter million spent by Oxford on "place-holder" renders. More of the same here (hope the rail deck is real, then hire Claude to make it great).

Remember the last render porn (casino and Foster towers) served up by Oxford for the entire convention centre site?

This would be phase one and just starts the latest conversation. Forget the renders.

BTW when did a Canadian developer become a "Hudson Yards" developer? LOL we're used to it.
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  #257  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2019, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Maldive View Post

BTW when did a Canadian developer become a "Hudson Yards" developer? LOL we're used to it.
Why is odd that a NY based publication would refer to Oxford's biggest development, and one that has made quite an impact in NYC, in the headline of the article?
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  #258  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i should have more clearly specified "large ocean going ships".

yes the lachine rapids were bypassed by canals as early as 1824, but the locks were tiny. and every time the lock sizes were upgraded over the decades, they quickly became too small for the ever increasing sizes of ocean-going cargo ships. this poor planning continued right up until the building of the st. lawrence seaway in 1959 where the 750' lock chambers were considered adequate at the time, but were soon undersized for ocean-going cargo vessels.

the canal and locking of the st. lawrence is a classic example of the peril of building infrastructure for the needs of today, instead of anticipating and building for the needs of tomorrow.

but even with bigger locks earlier, montreal was always going to be a major choke point on the st. lawrence, and was almost predestined by geography to become a significant port and industrial center.
Yeah, that's fair. Although goods were able to reach the Great Lakes by ship, Montreal has generally been a transfer point between big ocean going ships and whatever ships were used on the Great Lakes.
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  #259  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
But weren't present-day suburban Chicagoland and Metro Detroit basically developed on terrain not unlike the exurban Toronto farmland you speak of (flat, open space with a few forested areas here and there)?

And what's with the weird design quirk of streets having a sidewalk on one side but not the other? That's really odd.
Most of suburban Metro Detroit was built in the 40s-60s which means trees that were planted at the time the neighbourhood was developed have had plenty of time to grow into full sized mature trees. Meanwhile a tonne of Toronto's suburbs date to the 90s or later.

It's still possible to get decent tree cover with high densities in auto-oriented suburbia
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.73380...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.40670...7i16384!8i8192

But there's a few obstacles that come into play, driveways being one, since they cut down on how much room there is to plant trees and how much permeable cover they can draw water from.
Comparable lot sizes (trees have also had a few more decades to mature though)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.66733...7i16384!8i8192
Much of suburban Toronto is geared towards multiple adult households, which means 2-4 cars, so there's a stronger preference towards 2 lane wide driveways which also adds to the impermeable surface. Meanwhile, Detroit's single parent households and even bachelors are more likely to live in single family homes, allow on-street parking (for older denser suburbs at least). There's many ways Toronto could cut back on that though

There was an ice storm a few years ago which combined with Emerald Ash Borer took a heavy toll on the trees in a lot of NW Toronto suburbs. The street I grew up on lost most of its trees.
2009
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.72721...7i13312!8i6656
vs 2018
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.72718...7i16384!8i8192

Tear downs for custom homes tends to take a toll on trees, although they eventually grow back.

Also above ground power lines can lead to trees getting chopped back - mainly an issue in older suburbs since in the last decades everything's been buried.

I think the sidewalks on one side is not a big deal and was done mostly to save space and reduce how much surface is paved. These streets tend to have very low traffic so it's very easy to cross to the side with the sidewalks. You can even walk on the side of the road or even in the middle of the road tbh. I actually lived in a neighbourhood with no sidewalks whatsoever on the side streets and that didn't seem to bother the kids playing street hockey and the dog walkers.

The collector roads that carry local through traffic have sidewalks on both sides.
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