Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Not to burst your bubble...

The reason rider fans show up in large numbers across the country is so many have moved away from saskatchewan. There certainly weren't more than a couple thousand who drove in from saskatchewan and driving to Edmonton is significantly different than driving to halifax. To suggest your going to get thousands...or even hundreds of out of town rider fans at a game on the east coast is ridiculous.

It wasn't meant to suggest that the sask group would be the principle catalyst for large amounts of people attending a game if Halifax had a team. It was meant to suggest that any team; playing any game [B]could/B] attract large numbers of visitors. For example if Winnipeg came to play - there is potential that Winnipeg fans could come to visit for a game with their team.

Now this has a different slant because so many have moved to Alberta - but I don't believe it's outrageous or a bubble bursting to think that any opposing team to a potential halifax team wouldn't come to Halifax to see a game. If even 10% of a 15,000 seat stadium came from out of town (1500 people and spent the typical $1,500 for a weekend that's still 2.5 million $ in tourism money for one game. I think that's low balling the potential out of town numbers.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

It wasn't meant to suggest that the sask group would be the principle catalyst for large amounts of people attending a game if Halifax had a team. It was meant to suggest that any team; playing any game [B]could/B] attract large numbers of visitors. For example if Winnipeg came to play - there is potential that Winnipeg fans could come to visit for a game with their team.

Now this has a different slant because so many have moved to Alberta - but I don't believe it's outrageous or a bubble bursting to think that any opposing team to a potential halifax team wouldn't come to Halifax to see a game. If even 10% of a 15,000 seat stadium came from out of town (1500 people and spent the typical $1,500 for a weekend that's still 2.5 million $ in tourism money for one game. I think that's low balling the potential out of town numbers.

Show me some sort of precedence of any team getting near that amount of people from out of town (hotel stay) to a CFL game. Now remember any team that gets a good visitor crowd is because edm/cal/win/sask are all within a days drive of each other. Your pulling that arbitrary figure right out of the air.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Show me some sort of precedence of any team getting near that amount of people from out of town (hotel stay) to a CFL game. Now remember any team that gets a good visitor crowd is because edm/cal/win/sask are all within a days drive of each other. Your pulling that arbitrary figure right out of the air.

Here are some numbers looking at the grey cup in Calgary (which is heavily slanted towards Sask.). This is taken from this website.

It was a 4 day festival - 121,000 people attended. 46,020 came from outside of Calgary (I'm assuming that means anywhere outside, including Edmonton). That means that 38% of the total festival attendance used some form of transportation to come to the festival/game.

Now in the article it mentions a survey that showed 32,000 of the out of town visitors stayed an average of 3.9 nights for the festival. Of that, 20,000 used commercial accommodations spending 4.3 million $.

Now; I'm making assumptions based on the model that fenwick has proposed which was around 15,000 persons capacity (or was it more)?

If a typical game (on a weekend) would only have people spend one night (maybe 2) in the city; I'm sure that it would be way less than 4.3 million $ brought in. The 4.3 is based on 4 nights; so I don't think it's unreasonable to half that for an average of 2 nights (which would make it 2.15 million) and then considering the lower costs of hotels in Halifax (compared to Calgary) - assume a lower number from there. You could easily reduce the number by 25% considering the average hotel room cost in Halifax (but yet again, as you so rightly pointed out, that's an assumption).

But even if the assumption isn't far off - that's still a pretty good return just out of hotel accommodations. From the same article; they said that 5.1 mil was spent in bars/restaurants; 3.3 mil $ on food/liquor and 3.1 mil $ in retail stores. Easily (based on stadium capacity and the fact it would be a weekend game) the numbers would be way lower.

I realize that these are numbers based on a 4 day festival; but from a capturement perspective - Halifax's location makes it an easy drive for all over NS, PEI and NB. Flights to Halifax from Ontario and Quebec are frequent; so I don't think the team would have trouble getting visitors from opposing teams to visit. Just that Sask, BC and Alberta might not be so well shown.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Show me some sort of precedence of any team getting near that amount of people from out of town (hotel stay) to a CFL game. Now remember any team that gets a good visitor crowd is because edm/cal/win/sask are all within a days drive of each other. Your pulling that arbitrary figure right out of the air.

I have to say that I'm with SHOFEAR here. Its a long way to Halifax from other CFL team cities, the closest being Montreal. I doubt many would make such a long trip outside of a crucial playoff game. Rider fans are a special breed as well. They take their football VERY seriously. It doesn't surprise me that you would find more fans wearing the green in Edmonton or Calgary or Winnepeg than local colours. But this is probably quite unique to Saskatchewan fans. You couldn't expect the same fervor from BC fans or Argos fans for example.

Having said all that... if Halifax AND Moncton both had teams, I'd guarantee a great turnout in either town when they match up. Unfortunately that would be only be a couple games each year.

[fenwick16]

One similarity between the Maritimes and Saskatchewan is all the displaced Maritimers throughout Canada. I could see myself flying to Halifax to attend games and I would certainly attend Halifax games in Hamilton and Toronto. There would also be fans from Cape Breton who would drive to a game, stay at a hotel and return the next day. I could see the same happening with fans from PEI and New Brunswick (whether they get a team or not).

There might not be the same passion for the CFL in the East as in the West, but Montreal and Toronto are relatively close to Halifax by plane and the airfare is relatively cheap, if booked in advance. The other similarity between the Maritimes and Saskatchewan is that the CFL would be the biggest sport around (there would be no NHL to compete with).

I wouldn't underestimate the draw of the CFL in the Maritimes. There are a lot of Maritime sports fans in the Maritimes and throughout Canada who have been waiting their whole life to have a Maritime team to cheer for (myself included). Who in Halifax wouldn't want to go to a game in Halifax and see the Edmonton Eskimos or Toronto Argonauts get whipped by the Atlantic Schooners? I would certainly pay money to see that.

[Welkin]

Any CFL team in Halifax should probably draw about 80-90% of its attendance from within about a 1 hour drive of Halifax. If you sellout a 25,000 seat stadium, that means you will have about 2,500-5,000 fans coming from outside the area. The main locations for fans (Sydney, Yarmouth area, Saint John, Charlottetown and Moncton) are going to be 3-5+ hours away. Most of the fans from those areas will be staying in town (either in hotels or with family/friends) overnight in Halifax. A CFL home game could mean an extra 500-1000 hotel rooms and more business for gas/food/pub/etc. establishments. I am not sure where the $1,500 for a weekend trip comes from ($180 hotel, $200 food/drinks, $60 gas, $150 misc. only gets you to $590), but every CFL home game is like having a decent size convention in town. Ask the tourism board if they wouldn't like to fill an extra 1,000 hotel rooms every other weekend. The hotels in Regina are packed for Rider games and it is not because a bunch of Stamps fans are in for the weekend.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Halifax is much closer to Montreal, Toronto, and Hamilton than any of the western teams.

"The reason rider fans show up in large numbers across the country is so many have moved away from saskatchewan."

A larger percentage of people in western Canada are actually from Atlantic Canada than you think... the out migration is a significantly larger number than SK to western provinces. I would bet that there are at least 100,000 people originally from Atlantic Canada in Alberta alone.

I doubt any real east coaster would continue to cheer for a western team if Halifax/Atlantic Canada got a team. Would they spend money to fly home or see the new team in a different city... you betcha they would.

Halifax is also a fun city, a CFL team isn't the only reason to come here. We are also a huge football town, just look at the legacy of SMU and highschool football at QEH and St. Pat's. Now we have Citadel which dominates.

All of these factors lead me to believe that we would have no problem selling tickets.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Any CFL team in Halifax should probably draw about 80-90% of its attendance from within about a 1 hour drive of Halifax. If you sellout a 25,000 seat stadium, that means you will have about 2,500-5,000 fans coming from outside the area. The main locations for fans (Sydney, Yarmouth area, Saint John, Charlottetown and Moncton) are going to be 3-5+ hours away. Most of the fans from those areas will be staying in town (either in hotels or with family/friends) overnight in Halifax. A CFL home game could mean an extra 500-1000 hotel rooms and more business for gas/food/pub/etc. establishments. I am not sure where the $1,500 for a weekend trip comes from ($180 hotel, $200 food/drinks, $60 gas, $150 misc. only gets you to $590), but every CFL home game is like having a decent size convention in town. Ask the tourism board if they wouldn't like to fill an extra 1,000 hotel rooms every other weekend. The hotels in Regina are packed for Rider games and it is not because a bunch of Stamps fans are in for the weekend.

Regina is over 2 hours away from Saskatoon. I bet a Halifax team could easily get people from NB, PEI, and CB.

More people take trips to Halifax than Regina (Halifax is over double in size), even including the Riders numbers (which skew the reality).

[halifaxboyns]

My use of the RR as an example was only to furnish and example from the western perspective. To say that many Sask fans would visit - there is no foundation to say that would be true if a team came, just as there is no foundation to say that as many would come from Ontario, Quebec or Manitoba (depending on the team playing). I agree and would think that the catchment area for an HRM based team would easily stretch out to PEI, NB and NS. I'm suspecting NL might be a stretch; although flying could be an option.

$1500 comes from a tourism report that crossed my desk recently but I can't recall if it was based on Alberta numbers or was one I downloaded from ONtario or NS. It's on my desk at work - I'm guessing NS. My aunt is a senior staff member in Tourism NS; I can probably get the more accurate figure if I need it.

I'm not a huge sports fan (as my understanding of sports can demonstrate); but I did go to many hockey games while I was in Halifax and I'd certainly invest money for some family members and I to attend if they tickets were reasonable.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

the out migration is a significantly larger number than SK to western provinces. I would bet that there are at least 100,000 people originally from Atlantic Canada in Alberta alone.

That does nothing for attendance of games played out east. People aren't going to fly back home to watch games, get serious.

Basing out of town visitors off Grey Cup numbers. Really?

Listen I want a team to work out there. I fear you guys are making unrealistic expectations and basing a business case off a best case scenario. The last thing this league needs is another annual money loser and this league has a history of being blinded by overly optimistic swindlers. See US expansion, the Gleibermans etc.

[isaidso]

We should be wary of over optimistic projections, but the Maritimes also need to be given the opportunity to prove they can do it. The CFL has twice held games out east, and both times they've been greeted with massive support.

The truth is that Maritimers turn out in huge numbers for sports, but the rest of Canada never seems to notice because they're off their radar. No NHL, no CFL, no NBA, no MLB doesn't mean there's no sporting culture there. The Maritimes has some of the strongest sporting culture in the nation, they just don't have teams in those leagues.

The Maritimes is one region of the country where the CFL wouldn't play second fiddle to anyone. How many places can say that besides Saskatchewan?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Regina is over 2 hours away from Saskatoon. I bet a Halifax team could easily get people from NB, PEI, and CB.

Sure, but Halifax would still be a relatively self sufficient market in that the vast majority of those at games would be from Halifax County or an adjacent County. Fans driving in from PEI and NB would amount to padding on top rather than a make or break target market.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I am not sure where the $1,500 for a weekend trip comes from ($180 hotel, $200 food/drinks, $60 gas, $150 misc. only gets you to $590), but every CFL home game is like having a decent size convention in town.

I found the report in the many piles on my desk. It comes from a tourism report the looked at conventions throughout Alberta and determined the average for a convention was $1500 (usually 3 days).

So take that for what it is - it's an Alberta number (and also based on conventions) where the money spent at retail stores is often lower.

If you use the numbers you are suggesting, I'd say 2 nights hotel stay if it's a weekend, but that really wouldn't change your number too much (590 versus 770).

It would certainly be interesting to see what tourism NS says the average amount spent is. I've sent an email to my contact with Tourism (who also happens to be my aunt) to see if I can get some hard numbers from her.

I'm suspecting that the average weekend stay is probably around $1,000? Might be lower depending on the hotel charge and what not.

I also agree with isaidso - if the previous games held in the maritimes are any basis; there would be strong tourism draw - whether a team were in Halifax or Moncton. Yes, 2 games is no guarentee over a long haul - but it certainly gives some basis to form a reasonable opinion that if the tickets are reasonable in price it could be a big draw - whether the numbers come from out of town visitors or from HRM residents. I suspect the fact that university football games draw big numbers, you'd also see a big crowd from universities too.

[fenwick16]

I think the most reasonable comparison would be the number of extra hotel rooms booked for each Saskatchewan home game. Just as many Maritimers would fly home from out of province (maybe more) and just as many would travel from other parts of the Maritimes and stay at hotels (maybe more since there are 1.8 million people in the Maritimes to draw from, that is excluding NFLD).

[-Harlington-]

theres probably just as many people from atlantic canada out west or other places that moved away, just look at flickr picures and facebook groups and even in this fourm its all people who keep saying they miss halifax and all that.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

I have no doubt that a CFL team in Halifax would be supported. I'd buy season's tickets for sure and I'd do my best to encourage friends to do so as well. Really besides basketball there are no other professional teams here. Halifax has always shown it can support university sport (basketball and football). Also the Mooseheads get good support. Trust me, the only hurdle is finding some way to get a stadium built. Guaranteed if this happens potential owners will emerge.

[fenwick16]

I would buy season's tickets just to support the team even though I would likely only go to a couple games a year (since I live in the Toronto area).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Sure, but Halifax would still be a relatively self sufficient market in that the vast majority of those at games would be from Halifax County or an adjacent County. Fans driving in from PEI and NB would amount to padding on top rather than a make or break target market.

I would tend to agree with isaidso, while there is no doubt that there would be some people (myself included) who would drive several hours to take in a game (and make a weekend of it), most of the spectators in the stadium would come from the local catchment area, no more than 90 minutes to two hours away.

In Halifax, this would include the south shore, northern Annapolis Valley and the Truro/New Glasgow area. This is still nearly 600,000 people which is more than enough to justify a franchise.

In Moncton, this would include the Northumberland shore up to Miramichi, central PEI including Charlottetown, all of southeastern NB extending down to Sussex and Saint John and Cumberland County in NS. This area also has a population exceeding 500,000 and could also justify a franchise.

Less than 10% would come from further afield. There would be very few "fly-in" football tourists from central or western Canada. It would be the local market that would make or break a team.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would tend to agree with isaidso, while there is no doubt that there would be some people (myself included) who would drive several hours to take in a game (and make a weekend of it), most of the spectators in the stadium would come from the local catchment area, no more than 90 minutes to two hours away.

In Halifax, this would include the south shore, northern Annapolis Valley and the Truro/New Glasgow area. This is still nearly 600,000 people which is more than enough to justify a franchise.

In Moncton, this would include the Northumberland shore up to Miramichi, central PEI including Charlottetown, all of southeastern NB extending down to Sussex and Saint John and Cumberland County in NS. This area also has a population exceeding 500,000 and could also justify a franchise.

Less than 10% would come from further afield. There would be very few "fly-in" football tourists from central or western Canada. It would be the local market that would make or break a team.

The CFL would as in the past likely look strongly at the numbers Halifax could draw to support a CFL owner in Halifax. It just the STADIUM......an owner is not going to build a stadium on his/her own....they want the public funds kicked in...CFL teams are only one tenant to any stadium, although many use the CFL useage and the spinoffs to justify the expense of building the Stadium.....which is why many have jumped at the chance to host some sort of event where the public purse builds the stadium....Montreal the Big Owe....CommonWealth Stadium etc etc... Moncton jumped at the bid to host the track event and got the funding support to build....but I still think a CFL team stands abetter chance in Halifax in the long term....

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

The CFL would as in the past likely look strongly at the numbers Halifax could draw to support a CFL owner in Halifax. It just the STADIUM......an owner is not going to build a stadium on his/her own....they want the public funds kicked in...CFL teams are only one tenant to any stadium, although many use the CFL useage and the spinoffs to justify the expense of building the Stadium.....which is why many have jumped at the chance to host some sort of event where the public purse builds the stadium....Montreal the Big Owe....CommonWealth Stadium etc etc... Moncton jumped at the bid to host the track event and got the funding support to build....but I still think a CFL team stands abetter chance in Halifax in the long term....

The stadium cost can be born as a public/private partnership (p3) or it could be private with investment from firms for fundraising (doing things like selling naming rights, advertising in the stadium or franchise fees for food vendors).

I'd be quite happy going to the Eastlink Stadium; or the Bell Aliant Stadium - not so much the NSP Stadium (they are a monopoly so I don't like that) lol.