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  #21  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2014, 4:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dabom View Post
no one's going to go to milwaukie from downtown though. i doubt it
Not sure why someone downtown would need to. Though having active downtowns would make it so that people who live in the metro will have reasons to visit and live in them.
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2014, 5:42 AM
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ive visited downtown milwaukie and downtown oregon city my whole life, there getting nicer finily.

i dont think a short light rail line will do much for milwaukie
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  #23  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dabom View Post
ive visited downtown milwaukie and downtown oregon city my whole life, there getting nicer finily.

i dont think a short light rail line will do much for milwaukie
I disagree, Milwaukie just voted in a few new council members that are pro development and all for expanding a bike infrastructure in Milwaukie. The MAX opens in September, and the city is planning on redeveloping the southern end of downtown.
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  #24  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2014, 3:52 PM
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i wouldnt want to live in a downtown with a small grid, with no bridge across the river and a lot of trains passing through it.

it will never be a hip place but more of a lake oswego kinda place
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  #25  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dabom View Post
i wouldnt want to live in a downtown with a small grid, with no bridge across the river and a lot of trains passing through it.

it will never be a hip place but more of a lake oswego kinda place
Okay, I never said it would be a "hip place," I said it is primed to be an active little downtown. Also why wouldn't someone want to live in a walkable area that has a connection to a light rail train? Downtown Milwaukie has everything it needs to see new development in its downtown and an increase in activity.
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  #26  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2014, 11:42 PM
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im just saying its not the best area, oregon city, gladstone, oak grove and sellwood are better. theres bridges in all those cities i mentioned but the max doesnt go there

if the max went down the trolly trail some more it would be close to the train bridge.
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  #27  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dabom View Post
im just saying its not the best area, oregon city, gladstone, oak grove and sellwood are better. theres bridges in all those cities i mentioned but the max doesnt go there

if the max went down the trolly trail some more it would be close to the train bridge.
What does a bridge have to do with anything? Yeah, I am not following this logic at all.
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  #28  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 1:13 AM
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i guess if you drive it doesnt matter if youre by a bridge. sorry i was thinking about a car free city
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  #29  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 1:16 AM
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i guess if you drive it doesnt matter if youre by a bridge. sorry i was thinking about a car free city
I don't get this "car free city" you keep thinking about, but having a light rail stop in Downtown Milwaukie will be good for development there, which will help by adding more housing to the metro.
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 1:30 AM
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extending the max further would help a lot but milwaukie with a max is kinda overkill
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  #31  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 1:33 AM
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extending the max further would help a lot but milwaukie with a max is kinda overkill
Well Clackamas didn't want the MAX to extend all the way down to Oregon City....not sure how having it go through downtown Milwaukie is "overkill."

I really am not following your logic here at all, but this is getting way off topic with something that doesn't make sense and really isn't that important of a topic.
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  #32  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 1:38 AM
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they shounl do another voter in five years, its a inportant thing for people to drive less and not create sprawl
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  #33  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2014, 8:34 AM
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I live in Brooklyn, I work in Sellwood, and I bank in Milwaukie. I can promise you that rather than renting a Car2Go and driving to Milwaukie then back to Portland ASAP (it's $0.41/minute!) I'll stop an have dinner at Rice or that brick oven pizza place next door. Or maybe I'll go to Cha Cha Cha.

I like Milwaukie, it has a nice little downtown that will be much more convenient to get to. Bus service from SE PDX to Milwuakie is terrible right now. People in Sellwood complained so the buses don't run very late, and the buses that do run late don't actually serve much of SE Portland.

From Brooklyn right now it's faster to walk up to Division, Hawthorne, or Morrison than it is to rely on TriMet to get to Milwaukie and back. Between long waits between buses and an early shut down of service I just don't go there except to go to the bank. The Orange Line will make it much more likely I go there after work and have dinner as well.

I might even think about renting an apartment if it's a reasonable walk from the MAX stop.

Maybe. Probably not. But maybe.
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  #34  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2014, 4:15 PM
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im tired of riding the slow crowded bus, thats why i bought a motorcycle and i need to fix it. this is the last post i promise
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  #35  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2014, 12:08 AM
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To bring this back on topic, I noticed another member in another thread mentioned the idea that neighborhoods should be exclusive according to income. Why is this such a powerful idea for some? Why is there so much push back against creating income inclusive neighborhoods and ultimately cities and metros? The contention was brought up that this was not intended as a subsidy for the homeless, rather for the working class that are increasingly forced to use a car and live in the exurbs due to rents skyrocketing in city center.

Overall, despite previous mention that inclusionary zoning would slow down development, I think it would increase the kinds of urban planning that are really in tune with Portland's ethos-- we shouldn't be creating income exclusive neighborhoods; I think we should bring back inclusionary zoning in Oregon and repeal the ban set in place in 1999. Only Oregon and Texas have such bans at the state level.
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  #36  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2014, 7:30 AM
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As someone who's 'lurked' on this forum for a while, let me say that I greatly appreciate being informed about new developments and listening to your discussions. Since I don't live in Portland at the moment I don't often have much to contribute. But I would like to weigh in on this one -- it's a topic I'm very glad someone brought up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
I definitely feel that Portland's system for funding affordable housing isn't producing enough affordable housing. That said, inclusionary zoning can be seen as a tax on development, which is something we want more of, not less. I say this as someone who votes a solid Democratic ticket at every election, but I do realize that if you tax something, you get less of it. I really don't see why should place the burden of funding affordable housing on developers who are already providing new housing. If the net effect of inclusionary zoning winds up being the slowing down of development it would increase upwards pressure on the existing housing stock of the city, and ultimately hurt those who it is intended to help.
Maccoinnich, these are thoughtful points. Then again, coming from someone who 'votes a solid Democratic ticket,' isn't your economic logic a bit… well, supply-side? Granted that we all agree that affordability is a valid and important concern, is coddling developers really the best strategy to address it?

To begin with, simply increasing housing supply (by allowing developers to build freely) won't produce an evenly proportional decrease in housing prices. Land, a finite resource, will increase in value as it becomes scarcer relative to the number of residents, as increased density makes commercial properties more lucrative, as it becomes economically attractive to build higher, etc. As land values rise, so will rents; therefore focusing on supply alone isn't sufficient to ensure that enough housing remains affordable.

Second, as 2oh1 pointed out, it isn't propitious to hope that the economic benefits of new housing construction will ultimately 'trickle down' to all home-seekers, though all the new apartments and condos are entering the market at the top end. In fact, every block of Portland filled with shiny new luxury condos is one less block of housing for working-class folks. The current pattern seems to increase demand at the bottom end of the market (because low-rent homes are getting demolished to build luxury condos which drive up rents in the neighborhood, forcing more people out) much faster than supply is able to 'trickle down'. In reality, demand for housing for all incomes is consistently outstripping supply in Portland. We've allowed developers to opportunistically concentrate on solving the problem at the top end of the spectrum, and most Portlanders are still waiting for that trickle to reach us.

Anyway, exciting as it is to see gleaming new condo towers rise, isn't it disgusting to think that only wealthy Portlanders will be able to afford them, while those with modest incomes get nothing but hand-me-down homes and 'hoods? Inclusive zoning, if nothing else, has the advantage of forcing architects and developers (and politicians) to focus a good part of their efforts on building housing for the needs and tastes of a wide spectrum of folks, and not exclusively for the rich.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
New construction is expensive, and there's no way around that. The subsidy for affordable housing can come from wherever we choose.... But whatever we choose, we're taxing somebody. Inclusionary zoning is nothing other than a way of taxing people who live in newly built market rate housing.
Can't we have an 'all of the above' strategy? Use public money (from a variety of sources) to support affordable housing, while refusing to give up scarce land in our best neighborhoods to 'exclusionary' developments that cater only to the rich?

The question that your supply/demand argument hinges on is, will rich folks be willing enough to 'pay' the 'taxes' (i.e., pay higher rent than they would otherwise) to fund the inclusion of mixed-income units in their buildings? For as long as Portland remains a bargain compared to San Francisco and Seattle, for as long as it keeps drawing tech companies and talent from those cities, I think the answer will be 'yes'. Anyway, it's a better bet than hoping developers and city bureaucrats come up with some other way to keep rents affordable.
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  #37  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2014, 8:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
Can't we have an 'all of the above' strategy? Use public money (from a variety of sources) to support affordable housing, while refusing to give up scarce land in our best neighborhoods to 'exclusionary' developments that cater only to the rich?
Around a decade ago, the city did exactly what you're referring to. I don't know the details of the wheeling and dealing behind the scenes, but the end result was that three city blocks downtown (really 2, but one is a double sized block) were redeveloped in stages. A new affordable housing building was built (the St. Francis). The old nasty Safeway was town down and replaced by luxury condos (Eliot Tower). A new Safeway was built across the street with a mix of apartments above it that range from affordable to market rate and even luxury two story townhomes (Museum Place). And a small office building was built as well. I realize the opportunity to develop what amounts to three city blocks at more or less the same time is a rare thing, and I'm glad the city made the most of the opportunity. Though not perfect, the end result was a huge win for downtown.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know how any of that stuff works... but I really wish the city would take that approach again, even if the blocks aren't near each other. There have to be opportunities to make it worth a developer's while to include some affordable units in an otherwise market rate apartment building (Museum Place lofts are an example of this), or bend the rules to allow a luxury building to be built on one lot if an affordable building is built on another (the Jeffrey and Sky3 are an example of this approach, though the economy crashed after the Jeffrey was built, so Sky3 is only a home in the ground at this point).
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2015, 10:42 PM
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https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/201...verview/HB2564

Oregon House Bill 2564 to repeal ban on inclusionary zoning.

"Repeals law that prevents local governments from imposing conditions on approved permits that effectively establish sales price for residential development or limit purchase to class or group of purchasers."

Currently, just in first reading... So if you are in support you should bug your representative/senator! Find yours here:

https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/Fi...districts.html
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2015, 8:10 AM
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Just curious, I don't know much about inclusionary zoning... are there any documented downsides to it? It sounds like there have been some success cases, where wealthy towns have been able to force developers to build low income units and improve the diversity of building stock.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2015, 8:32 PM
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Great post and conversation going on at Bike Portland:

Quote:
Housing and transportation advocates plan to pack hearing for affordability bill
Posted by Michael Andersen (News Editor) on February 18th, 2015 at 9:09 am

Oregon’s 20-year ban on a common affordable-housing policy could be headed for the dustbin, based on what happens after a hearing in Salem next Monday.

The policy, known as inclusionary zoning, would allow city governments to require that new buildings within certain areas include certain ratios of lower-rent housing units. Backers call it a useful tool for preventing desirable parts of town from becoming homogeneously wealthy.

Inclusionary zoning is entirely banned in two U.S. states: Oregon and Texas. House Bill 2564 would remove Oregon’s ban.
...continues at Bike Portland. I think this is a really interesting comment, from Don Arambula of Crandall Arambula:

Quote:
I have worked on many projects in many states that have inclusionary zoning. While it a sensible tool for addressing affordability, my experience leads me to believe it falls far short of providing a solution. In fact, by requiring affordable units, I have witnessed many projects that have not ‘penciled out’ and were not constructed. As a result not only was affordable housing not constructed, market rate was not either. The result is the creation of a housing market where apartments are scarce and prices escalate even higher.

The criticism of the Pearl missing the 35% target is misguided. Sure we should hold the development community’s feet to the fire and require that many of the remaining parcels meet that goal.But keep in mind that the Pearl is a national model for affordability, despite the group think perception that it is a toney neighborhood. In most redevelopment projects across the nation where inclusionary zoning is the sole tool, communities are getting nowhere near 28% affordability, let alone a 20% inclusionary requirement.

Let’s do a better job by requiring all URA projects to have a minimum percentage above and beyond 20% and provide the gap financing to build as much housing as possible to ‘flood’ market. Consider inclusionary zoning, but don’t expect it to be a silver bullet.
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