HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 10:40 PM
mr.x's Avatar
mr.x mr.x is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 12,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Look at where most of the view cone starting points are on the map:

1. City Hall;

2. South False Creek;

3. North End Granville St. Bridge;

For the latter two points, one is already tooooo close to low/mid-rise towers to see much of a view beyond.

These arbititrary view cone points seem rather silly to me. Just more illogical social engineering that prohibits 700/800 footers from being built in the city.

Besides, the skyscape downtown is "the view" from afar.

My two cents.
I couldn't agree more....and what happens, in the distant future, if downtown does run out of space?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 11:15 PM
Canadian Mind's Avatar
Canadian Mind Canadian Mind is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
You're absolutely right. I should, and I would if I wasn't living in Winnipeg now!
Seeing as your location says 'Petawawa,' I imagine you're in the same boat

(I'm still very attached to Vancouver!)

My comment is mainly referring to a particular occasion where a city of Vancouver development officer identified himself to me after I posted something in here that he probably shouldn't have told me. (long time ago, irrelevant info now). Obviously city planning staff keep a close eye on what is said in here, so I was merely recommending a good comment towards them.
Was that back in mid-2007?

Wonder how much he appreciates us tearing apart his article...

And Mr. X2, the penninsula is basically already out of space, unless we begin to redevelop the office areas and west end. Otherwise all future expansion 9hopefully vertically) will be in Gastown, and someday maybe even down south towards Science world (20-30 years down the road?)
__________________
"you're eating chicken periods" - Vid
"I love eggs, especially the ones with runny yolks" - Me
"EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, you're disgusting!" - Vid
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 11:45 PM
phesto phesto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: yvr/bwi
Posts: 2,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Also, this is incorrect:

City Council eventually did allow the "finger" to exceed the view cone (but only the finger) - it was the developer's financial problems that led to the sale of the hotel site and the change in tower design (to allow larger suites).

It is still in the CD-1 bylaw for the site - See section 4.1(c) of the Rezoning Bylaw here:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/bylaws/...1%28413%29.PDF
No doubt the "sharp-eyed people at SSP" comment was aimed at you Officedweller, for pointing out the errors in Bula's article...

I can recall the outrage over view cones and height limits on this forum in 2002 when the 600 ft. Howe proposal was rejected.

I don't feel so strongly about the whole view cone policy anymore, partly because so much of downtown's development has already been shaped by it, for better or worse, and there's probably not a whole lot to be gained by any radical adjustment. I still laugh at how arbitrary it is though.

Certainly a good time for a review with the lull in development, otherwise I think you'd get some opposition for change.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2009, 11:53 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 38,341
I posted that after the other post - so that people directed here would see that we are sharp!

I don't see much coming out of it from a condo perspective - because the built-out condos won't be torn down any time soon. But for the CBD areas that lie under view cones, there could be good potential for office space.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 12:44 AM
LeftCoaster's Avatar
LeftCoaster LeftCoaster is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toroncouver
Posts: 12,629
CM that is a common misconception, however there is actually quite a lot of under-developed space in the downtown peninsula. The residential areas of Yaletown and the westend are about 90% built out, as is the core of the cbd, however zones C1, C3 and the eastern half of zone B pictured below all contain millions and millions of potential office floor space density even changes to the viewcone policy. Amendments to the policy will only increase that availability. I should also add that those zones are zoned almost exclusively for office space so the myth that the downtown peninsula is completely build out is all but a that.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 1:03 AM
Locked In's Avatar
Locked In Locked In is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,975
In addition to the zones LeftCoaster pointed out above, North East False Creek will contain a couple million square feet of office space (and potentially 4 million square feet of residential), and the Waterfront Hub area another million square feet.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 1:16 AM
Canadian Mind's Avatar
Canadian Mind Canadian Mind is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,921
Because I have time to kill, I am going to go through every single viewcone afecting downtown and nearby area as listed on the city website, and suggest which ones I feel should be eliminated, kept, or mdified (and how I would modify them).

First, a nice colourful map from 96 showing where the downtown affecting viewcones are:


Some of the pics on the Vancouver website make it hard to judge what you are seeing because of cloud cover, and frankly if clouds are the best they can do for pics to showcase the view, it only weakens the position that the view is relevant.

Viewcone A - Two options here. Either scrap it, or modify it. But the cloud cover makes it difficult to judge just how high the mountain is, and therefore hwo to best modify it. Though if you notice the little cut-out in the wall of buildings at the bottom left, maintaiing that cut out while removing most of the rest might make for a more drmatic sea to peak view. Designated viewcone A1.1 would be the cut-out, while A1.2 could be the cut off to allow the actual peak of the mountain to show, while the rest of the viewcone is removed.


Viewcone B1 -
It may be too late for any (re-)development to take advantage of a heightened viewcone. So leave it as is.

Viewcone B2 - Scrap it. It limits the height of future office redevelopment near Coal Harbour. In addition to this, it is far to narrow to provide a significant view.

Viewcone C1 - Keep it for same reason as B1

Viewcone C2 - It's hard to judge the mountain height due to cloud cover. Eastern half of viewcone will also be swallowed by trees within the next 10-20 years. This future cut off kills the significance of the viewcone. It also would do the same to milit future office development as B2. So I suggest scrap it.

Viewcone D - Significant viewcone in tht it has given us the Shangri-la as we know it, aswell as the future RC should that project ever climb out of it's hole. However, in this picture I can't see Lions very clearly, either because of cloud cover or because you can only see the peaks of the mountains. If it is because only the peaks are showing, I'd scrap it in favour of allowing greater development long the few sites left below it to be developed, partly because B1 and C1 both lready grant an impressive view of the Lions not impeeded by sailboats.

However, if the picture is merely decieving, and the Lions do infact have a significant presence, then leave it as it is. I recognise that it is one fo the more popular spots to take a picture of vancouver, combining the elements of water, sailboats, skyscrapers, mountains, and the sky above.

Viewcone E1 - Move the viewing point close to the Stadium, and move the actual viewcone frame of reference to the right, so that it covers all above BC Place, but no further to the left or right then the edges of the Stadium, perferabley inset just a touch. Would provide an excellent backdrop for the stadium both in it's current and future form, especially if framed by a couple 400+ foot Skyscrapers.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Woodwards would intrude on this new viewcone. Aside from Woodwards and possibly one other signature building, I wouldn't allow any other structures to intrude. For a second building to intrude, it would have to be very narrow when viewed from this angle, but the height could be allowed up to 600+ feet. A smart developer would buy up land from all over gastown and fill it with mid-rises up to the viewcone limit to allow density for this landmark structure. As a prerequisit for this the heritage feel of the area must be preserved, so using existing facades as the base levels and siding the building in a similar fashion to Woodwards would be desired. Once this is done, all future opportunities for intrusion would be eliminated.

Viewcone E2.1 ans E2.2 - Instead of two viewcones, maintain only one called E2, and move the viewing point in conjunction with E1 for greatest overall visual impact from that point on the bridge.

Viewcone 10 - Scrap it. You can see the mountains and ocean under the bridge, and the sky above it. All this viewcone is doing is preventing greater height and density in future West End developments.

Viewcone 12.1.1 - Keep it

Viewcone 12.1.2 - Keep it

viewcone 12.1.3 - To small to be significan't, so I'd suggest scrapping it, or atleast make it optional should a really good proposal come along for one of the sites under the viewcone.

Viewcone 12.2 - Keep it.

Viewcone 3, QE park - Raise 3.2.1-3 to the lower peaks on the left hand side of 3.2.3. Raise 3.2.4 up a significan't amount, but not neccisarily as much as 3.2.1-3.

Viewcone 9.1 - Narrow view from left to be inline with Harbour Centre. Narrow it from right to about the stop-light post. Lower portion over BC place too roof Level of BC Place and allow 3-5 landmark towers (must be 200+ feet over base of viewcone to be landmark towers) to propagate the cone for some visual interaction with mountainline when viewed from the south, and towers to stand out and significantly extend the skyline east when viewed from the north.

Viewcone 9.2 - Eliminate the western portion fo the viewcone (9.2.1), and narrow 9.2.2 to align with treeline on the right, and tuck in the left a touch aswell. Allow 1 or 2 buildings to propagate viewcone.

Viewcone 20 - Very impacting viewcone. Raise it above housing line in North Van, widen it from street edge to street edge. Allow for several (5+) towers to propagate new viewcone.

Viewcone 21 - Narrow it to align with treeline on the right. Allow 3-5 towers to propagate viewcone.

Viewcone 22 - Raise it closer to level of towers on left. Allow several towers to propagate the viewcone.




Where I speak of buildings propagating viewcone, what I'm suggesting is that sites be selected where landmark or stand-out buildings can be placed i order to give the skyline more visual appeal, whilst providing least visual interference to viewcones. I suggest this for only the widest viewcones, as narrow towers in the distance wont do much to affect the overall view. Infact, it is hoped that having some buildings propagating the viewcone would add to the visual stigma of a mountain backdrop for a modern city by the sea.

I also tried to hint at it with my suggestions, but viewcones should be orientated down main streets, and across certain landmark structures such as BC Place. This would serve to make the landmarks more visually impacting and photogenic, while not criss-crossing development sites.

Without being able to run around the area with a camera, it is hard for me to come up with ideas for possible future viewcones that, while providing dramatic views fo the mountains with downtown in the foreground, would do the least to impact the vertical development of downtown.




Thoughs?
__________________
"you're eating chicken periods" - Vid
"I love eggs, especially the ones with runny yolks" - Me
"EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, you're disgusting!" - Vid
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 3:00 AM
jlousa's Avatar
jlousa jlousa is offline
Ferris Wheel Hater
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,371
Leftcoaster is right, even if you didn't touch the view cones there are millions and millions of sqft available downtown under current zoning. There are dozens and dozens of parking lots and hundreds of sites nowhere near their allowable density that are begging to be developed.

Personally I'd prefer to see very little done with the view cones (maybe a few tweaks here and there), the restrictions on residential conversions in the cbd as well as the new increased FSR increases for commercial space in the metro core will supply more then enough capacity for the foreseeable future (over 25yrs).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 5:58 AM
Rusty Gull's Avatar
Rusty Gull Rusty Gull is offline
Site 8 Lives
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver's North Shore
Posts: 1,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by phesto View Post
No doubt the "sharp-eyed people at SSP" comment was aimed at you Officedweller, for pointing out the errors in Bula's article...

I can recall the outrage over view cones and height limits on this forum in 2002 when the 600 ft. Howe proposal was rejected.
Hmm. I'm surprised her article contained these errors. But I'm glad she raised this issue in the MSM...

Last edited by Rusty Gull; Apr 1, 2009 at 2:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 7:57 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 38,341
One view cone that I would like to see revised is the one (or more) that restrict the Bay Parkade site. That should be a huge commercial project since it is can have direct access to the Granville Station and not just limited to 300 ft. Likewise, the few remaining lots on the eastern part of Georgia Street (Budget Rent a Car lots, EasyPark, sunken plaza of Telus, even the short building with the bull sculpture) should be allowed to build tall (although their footprints are small, but that is probably unlikely exce[t for the Budget site and the Bay Parkade site).

WRT backgrounders, here's the webpage for the City's 1997 Higher Buildings Policy - Appendix C is the adopted policy.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/plannin...tudy/index.htm

Here's the "Higher Buildings" zones.

Remember that the Higher Buildings Policy is subject to the View Cones Policy - so a view cone height limit trumps the higher buildings policy's 600ft limit. The only area where a 600ft building will be allowed under existing view cones is in the 1000 and 1100 block of West Georgia where it is marked "No View Cone Restrictions".
That's where Shangri-La is located and where Ritz-Carlton was proposed. Other buildings in that block are Terasen Gas (newer building, unlikely to be redeveloped in the short term; 1075 West Georgia, landmark Arthur Erickson building likely a heritage building, never to be demolished; Burrrad Building, Grosvenor Building and 1090 West Georgia, the most likely of the bunch to be redeveloped, perhaps with site consolidation).

As long as the existing View Cones Policy remains in place, the Higher Buildings Policy simply pays lip service to the possibility of 600 ft buildings throughout the bold outlined area.


Last edited by officedweller; Mar 31, 2009 at 8:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 8:20 PM
johnjimbc johnjimbc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 766
Isn't the Easy Park site larger than the budget surface lot?

How would one handle the heritage structure where the Budget rental counter is located? Perhaps it may not matter now that they are gone, but weren't heritage structures inadvertently - or purposefully - removed from the corner of Georgia and Richards (where the budget surface lot was expanded recently) during the city strikes last year? I seem to recall reading - perhaps even here - that the demolition orders were signed off on during the strike. If so, would that factor at all in the development of that lot?

I think the Bay Parkade spot presents an excellent development opportunity, and it is quite sizable. I think there are some heritage structures along Georgia adjacent to it as well, but I could see that whole parcel from behind Dunsmuir house (or whatever it is called) west across the Bay Parkade to Georgia street redeveloped into a complex of two or more towers.

I'm curious what might be proposed for the surroundings around the potential new transportation hub. I think that area would be a great opportunity to sweep the downtown core further along the waterfront, and the ceiling heights are higher there already.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2009, 8:26 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 38,341
Yeah it is - I was thinking that the Budget site could be consolidated across the alley - but come to think of it, the theatre would need a straight alley for delivery trucks. At least the density could be consolidated on one side of the alley. I could see the facade of the Budget building saved. The former Fido building was just demolished.

Holburn doesn't own the former Toni Cavelti Building (the heritage building on Georgia) - but I'm not sure if it owns the two corners @ Seymour and @ Richards. I would expect it owns at least the Seymour corner. I could see a podium sympathetically wrapping around the Toni Cavelti Building. It would be cool if the alley were closed and a mid-block galleria built from Granville Station to Richards St.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2009, 1:07 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,604
"As long as the existing View Cones Policy remains in place, the Higher Buildings Policy simply pays lip service to the possibility of 600 ft buildings throughout the bold outlined area."

Unfortunately Vancouver City officials are legendary for doing just that (lip service) and i fear that will be all that will come from this "review".
I recall another "review" that took place in the late 90's that promised taller buildings that produced plenty of rhetoric but almost nothing in actual results.

To illustrate this; is an excerpt from a skyline study that was done by city staff back in 97'.:

"Landmark - 750' Skyline (two towers at 750 feet)

The mountains do not remain the most significant element of the
skyline and the view of 'the Lions' is compromised from certain
vantage points south of False Creek.
Landmark buildings at 750 feet are not below the ridge line at 12th
Avenue.
Visual interest is created by 750 foot landmark towers.
There are minimal impacts on sensitive areas.
Limiting the number of landmark towers to two will result in a
relative monopoly situation and other owners will want to be dealt
with equitably and have similar opportunities provided. This will
result in difficulties administering the regulations.
At the open houses and meetings, 32.1% of those filling out a
comment sheet chose this skyline (71 responses). (Also noted by
public as: gap tooth-landmark 750': 4.1%, landmark 750'-dome: 1.8%
for total of 38%).

Although this is a popular option, it is not recommended because
buildings of 750 feet would intrude significantly into the mountain
backdrop and profile, challenging the predominance of the mountains. It would also block views of the 'Lions' from many locations south of False
Creek. Moreover, it creates very few opportunities for taller buildings
thus creating a difficult situation for equitably administering the
regulations."


In other words, they recognized this was the most popular choice of people but chose to ignore it and just tell them what they need instead of listening to what the majority of those who responded wanted to see happen.






"

Last edited by EastVanMark; Apr 1, 2009 at 1:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 12:28 PM
Hed Kandi's Avatar
Hed Kandi Hed Kandi is offline
+
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,164
..

Last edited by Hed Kandi; Oct 4, 2022 at 4:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 2:58 PM
mr.x's Avatar
mr.x mr.x is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 12,805
^ i'm loving it....from this rather arbitrary vantage point, no harm done in hiding all those mountain slope homes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted May 29, 2009, 3:32 PM
V-Cone V-Cone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1
Downtown Capacity and View Corridors E-newsletter
May 22, 2009

E-newsletters will keep you up to date on major study milestones and opportunities for public involvement.

Study Objectives
achieve additional development capacity in the downtown to support more public benefits
identify possible modifications while still achieving the intent of the current height and view corridor policies

As a part of the Study, the City is hosting a series of public open houses to hear how public views matter you.

OPEN HOUSE SCHEDULE
Public open houses are being held at the following times and locations:

Tuesday, June 2: 3 - 7 pm
Roundhouse Community Centre
181 Roundhouse Mews

Thursday, June 4: 3 - 7 pm
City Square Shopping Centre
555 West 12th Avenue

Sunday, June 7: 12 - 5 pm
Vancouver Public Library
Central Branch
350 West Georgia Street

Tuesday, June 9: 3 - 7 pm
Sunset Community Centre
6810 Main Street

OPEN HOUSE DESCRIPTION
Open houses are an informal opportunity to learn more about the study and to have your say on the value of public views before the City proposes any changes to existing view policies. All open houses are “drop-in” format.

Come and speak with staff and give your feedback about the protected views. Input is being gathered at the open houses through the completion of surveys, comment forms and staff discussion. Input provided at this stage of the study will contribute to the preparation of proposed changes to existing view corridors and building height limits, expressed as downtown development scenarios, in the next phase of public feedback.

More information about the study can be found online at www.vancouver.ca/capacitystudy
E-mail: capacitystudy@vancouver.ca
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted May 29, 2009, 8:55 PM
raggedy13's Avatar
raggedy13 raggedy13 is offline
Dérive-r
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,446
Thanks for the info! I'll definitely be checking out one of those open houses.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2009, 8:10 PM
phesto phesto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: yvr/bwi
Posts: 2,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedy13 View Post
Thanks for the info! I'll definitely be checking out one of those open houses.
Me too.

Given the amount of time on this forum dedicated to discussion (or bitching) about view cones and heights, I would hope some forumers make an effort to attend one of the open houses and/or provide feedback to the City.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2009, 2:13 AM
jlousa's Avatar
jlousa jlousa is offline
Ferris Wheel Hater
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,371
The presentation boards are now available for those that can not make it out to the meetings.
They are found here, please go through them all (21 in total) be commenting. Cheers.

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/plannin...ards/index.htm
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2009, 2:14 AM
Canadian Mind's Avatar
Canadian Mind Canadian Mind is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,921
thanks JL, I'll give it a look.
__________________
"you're eating chicken periods" - Vid
"I love eggs, especially the ones with runny yolks" - Me
"EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW, you're disgusting!" - Vid
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Urban, Urban Design & Heritage Issues
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:41 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.