SkyTrain Billions Better Spent on Trams: Study

[deasine]

Tram and LRT is actually incredibly similar. In Europe, "tram" would be the more popular term whereas in North America, the equivalent of "tram" would be "streetcar"

LRT would be usually described in networks with a higher capacity running seperated from traffic (or at least most of the time). This is not necessarily the case in many networks in Europe, where trams often run its own right of way.

In North America, Streetcar/Tram would be any train that runs with traffic. They usually have a lower capacity compared to LRT with "lighter" trains and "shorter" trains. Again, this is not necessarily the case in Europe.

[Distill3d]

ahhh

see, coming from Calgary, i can attest that at grade LRT systems DO NOT WORK. they are far inferior to SkyTrain or Subway. its almost a weekly occurance that someone gets hit by a train (be it in car or on foot), and rarely does anyone survive such an accident. it ties up the network for hours on end. i would imagine Toronto has similar issues with their existing streetcar system.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

ahhh

see, coming from Calgary, i can attest that at grade LRT systems DO NOT WORK. they are far inferior to SkyTrain or Subway. its almost a weekly occurance that someone gets hit by a train (be it in car or on foot), and rarely does anyone survive such an accident. it ties up the network for hours on end. i would imagine Toronto has similar issues with their existing streetcar system.

how is speed and frequency on the C-Train?

[spitkicker08]

i don't understand how a streetcar system would be any better than our trolly system. environmental advantages aside, you would get the same service; streetcars run in regular traffic like trolleys do and would operate at the same speeds. also the trolleys have more functionality: if there is an accident in the same lane the streetcar runs in your screwed; a trolley could go around it or even operate for short distances without being directly powered.

[jlousa]

Bingo
Streetcars have their place, as they can be longer (more capacity) then a trolley, but unless they are on ROWs they are more susceptible to problems then even the trolleys. This was one of the biggest reasons they phased the streetcars out to begin it wasn't some bridgestone/exxon conspiracy.

I'd still like to see the downtown streetcar system and others where they can run along ROWs for at least a portion of the route.

[spitkicker08]

i'm down for the streetcar plans they have now around downtown and a few expansions (victoria, main, maybe arbutus) but i think replacing our entire system is ridiculous.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

how is speed and frequency on the C-Train?

Max speed is 80km/h on grade separated, 15 or 20km/h in street. Frequency for either route individually at rush peak approaching 4-5 minutes on each line, mostly due to the interlining of the 2 routes in the downtown core.

[fever]

Originally Posted by spitkicker08

i'm down for the streetcar plans they have now around downtown and a few expansions (victoria, main, maybe arbutus) but i think replacing our entire system is ridiculous.

I'm worried they might try to single-track some parts of the downtown streetcar. I know it's done even on some fairly busy streetcar lines, but I think it's best avoided. In the end, I expect the downtown streetcar will be nearly a clone of the Portland streetcar, which is ok to start with except it's pretty slow.

I don't think anyone's suggesting replacing the entire trolley system. Victoria, Main, and Kingsway are probably the best streetcar routes, basically the overcrowded routes with development potential. They should be operated quite differently than the downtown streetcar, especially with fewer stops.


There isn't a single definition for streetcar/tram/LRT systems. They vary in the typical distance between stops, ROW configuration (in traffic, in street but segregated, off street), signal priority, and headways. No two systems are identical. LRT is usually off street with some on street sections, with stations spaced at 500 m to 1 km, with signal priority and long headways.


Portland's MAX is much less frequent than Vancouver's Skytrain. It's not as well used. And it has way too many stops downtown. It's ok once it leaves downtown, and it's a fairly good model (I'm thinking yellow line) for streetcars on Main/Kingsway/Victoria.

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Although I agree on the importance of streetcars to a city (heck when I was studying in Toronto the No. 501 [Queen Streetcar] was the best way to spend your weekend), however let's get the SkyTrain network completed before we talk about streetcars.

SkyTrain = backbone
LRT/tram/streetcar and BRT = support

[mr.x]

^ unfortunately, Stephen Rees doesn't seem to get that....and yet he was one of Translink's policy makers for several years, until 2004. I'm not even going to bother arguing with him.

[Rusty Gull]

More recently, some folks from TransLink have come onto his blog to take issue with the way he disparages our transit authority, as well as SkyTrain. Apparently there's no love lost between the ex-employee and his former employer.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

More recently, some folks from TransLink have come onto his blog to take issue with the way he disparages our transit authority, as well as SkyTrain. Apparently there's no love lost between the ex-employee and his former employer.

Wow, he's obviously totally disgruntled then. All of his remaining credibility just vanished.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fever

Portland's MAX is much less frequent than Vancouver's Skytrain.

Agreed.
If you look at the schedule for the Portland Max the frequencies are more like bus frequencies rather than subway frequencies. While there would be interlining downtown, on each branch frequencies are typically 15 minutes.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

More recently, some folks from TransLink have come onto his blog to take issue with the way he disparages our transit authority, as well as SkyTrain. Apparently there's no love lost between the ex-employee and his former employer.

any links to posts made by Translink staff?

[fever]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Agreed.
If you look at the schedule for the Portland Max the frequencies are more like bus frequencies rather than subway frequencies. While there would be interlining downtown, on each branch frequencies are typically 15 minutes.

I was down there a couple weeks ago. The ridership wasn't really impressive, maybe as much as the Main or Victoria trolley, depending on the branch. The yellow branch probably has lower ridership than the 4th Avenue bus. It's a nice system and I think it would fit well in Vancouver, especially considering its higher densities and more established retail strips outside downtown. The streetcar is well used, but it's free...

Anyway, numbers from lightrailnow (April 2007). No idea if these are linked trips:

System: 104,200 rider-trips (boardings)/weekday
Yellow: 12,200 rider-trips/weekday
Blue: 66,300 rider-trips/weekday
Red: 25,700 rider-trips/weekday

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_n...m#POR_20070426

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Agreed.
If you look at the schedule for the Portland Max the frequencies are more like bus frequencies rather than subway frequencies. While there would be interlining downtown, on each branch frequencies are typically 15 minutes.

i don't know as someone who slept at a hotel right on the max line they came with great frequency in the early morning

the individiual lines may be slow but most of them converge downtown and the convention centre so its pretty fast to get into downtown if you can hop on any of the 3 lines that go there

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Kwik-E-Mart

Although I agree on the importance of streetcars to a city (heck when I was studying in Toronto the No. 501 [Queen Streetcar] was the best way to spend your weekend), however let's get the SkyTrain network completed before we talk about streetcars.

SkyTrain = backbone
LRT/tram/streetcar and BRT = support

skytrain is an LRT

trams and streetcars are smaller

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i don't know as someone who slept at a hotel right on the max line they came with great frequency in the early morning

the individiual lines may be slow but most of them converge downtown and the convention centre so its pretty fast to get into downtown if you can hop on any of the 3 lines that go there

That's what I said - the interlined service would be OK - but the individual branches would have slow service, esp. outside rush hours.

http://trimet.org/schedules/index.htm

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

skytrain is an LRT

trams and streetcars are smaller

I dunno... SkyTrain was originally designed to be the intermediary between LRT and Metro (hence the designation as ART - advanced rapid transit). I don't think many see it as an LRT these days.

Case in hand: Kuala Lumpur Kelana Jaya Line.

[SpongeG]

LRT just usually means less capacity than a real subway or Heavy Rail in my books

it can cover anything from skytrain to portland's max or calgarys c train etc