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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris550 View Post
I wonder if it has ever occurred to Newflyer that a rapid transit system could help build the economy... but wait, that is blasphemy. MUST GET RID OF ALL TAXATION! YARRRRR!!! :pirate:

IMO, it's a short term pain for a long term gain. Even that could be reduced through alternative financing methods (such as the TIF, as stated by the OP).

Don't sell yourselves short W-Peg.
What can I say Boris, this is a town chocked full of pessimists and underachievers.

It can be very frustrating living here, this town used to dream big.

I know we can do it again..
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 10:17 PM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
What can I say Boris, this is a town chocked full of pessimists and underachievers.

It can be very frustrating living here, this town used to dream big.

I know we can do it again..
I just pray to God that change happens sooner than later.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
What can I say Boris, this is a town chocked full of pessimists and underachievers.

It can be very frustrating living here, this town used to dream big.

I know we can do it again..
So rail transit is the be all and end of of thinking big??? Oh gee ....


Andy 6 has it exactly correct.... once you have a growing economy with some built up areas than rapid trasit can play a role within a growing city, but just throwing in a billion dollar rail trasit system will have little to not positive impact on a city with a weak economy... except to weaken it further with more debt and expenses.

It is obvious that in order to attract business you would need more than trains... unless the hundreds and hundreds of businesses in the chamber have it all wrong.

Yes the Chamber has no idea about business... and Boris has spoken. You want to think big ... how about attarcting high paying jobs... how about broadening the tax base?? ... how about developing a high tech sector ... how about an exploding Bio-Med sector?? .... How about expanding the number of businesses within the city .... no no thats small beans compared to building trains.

Boris's links are definatly tilted towards a bias point of view, primarily with the input of people who know very little about building economies... but I am sure that has little to do with the arguement... as long as its on the web.

Look at Winnipeg's GDP per capita .. vs. Milwalkee .. Toronto .. Montreal ... or Calgary... or any other city Boris wants to mention. Go on and prove my point for me. Socialism has devistated Winnipeg's economy and you think trains will be the savior? Yeah okay ... you'll win the Nobel Prize of Economics with that theory.


Yup yup.. gotta be trains .. yup yup..
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Last edited by newflyer; Mar 28, 2007 at 10:52 PM.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 11:09 PM
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The National Business Coalition for Public Transit has an interesting list of members (http://www.apta.com/research/info/on...importance.pdf), p. 6:


Chicago Metropolis 2020
Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce
Denver Metro Chamber of Commerce
Downtown Tulsa Unlimited, Inc.
Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce
Greater Cleveland Growth Association
Greater Minneapolis Chamber of Commerce
Greater Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce
Greater Washington Board of Trade
Lancaster (PA) Chamber of Commerce
Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce
Metropolitan Planning Council (Chicago)
Miami (FL) Chamber of Commerce
Minneapolis Downtown Council
New Orleans Regional Chamber of Commerce
Oakland (CA) Chamber of Commerce
San Diego Chamber of Commerce
San Francisco Chamber of Commerce
Silicon Valley Manufacturers Group

Thanks for the links Boris.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mango View Post
The National Business Coalition for Public Transit has an interesting list of members (http://www.apta.com/research/info/on...importance.pdf), p. 6:


Chicago Metropolis 2020
Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce
Denver Metro Chamber of Commerce
Downtown Tulsa Unlimited, Inc.
Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce
Greater Cleveland Growth Association
Greater Minneapolis Chamber of Commerce
Greater Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce
Greater Washington Board of Trade
Lancaster (PA) Chamber of Commerce
Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce
Metropolitan Planning Council (Chicago)
Miami (FL) Chamber of Commerce
Minneapolis Downtown Council
New Orleans Regional Chamber of Commerce
Oakland (CA) Chamber of Commerce
San Diego Chamber of Commerce
San Francisco Chamber of Commerce
Silicon Valley Manufacturers Group

Thanks for the links Boris.
Of course all the cities would be a part of such an organization .. they all have the economy and population to support a rapid transit system.

I don't think that list has a metro center which isn't at least twice the size of Winnipeg.. except New Orleans, which has been devistated by Katrina (but also doesn't have rapid transit).

At least compare apples with apples. Once Winnipeg has the population and economy to support an LRT I will be 110% behind it.

Chicago and LA have suburbs bigger than Winnipeg.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 12:19 AM
Lee_Haber8 Lee_Haber8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
So rail transit is the be all and end of of thinking big??? Oh gee ....


Andy 6 has it exactly correct.... once you have a growing economy with some built up areas than rapid trasit can play a role within a growing city, but just throwing in a billion dollar rail trasit system will have little to not positive impact on a city with a weak economy... except to weaken it further with more debt and expenses.

It is obvious that in order to attract business you would need more than trains... unless the hundreds and hundreds of businesses in the chamber have it all wrong.

Yes the Chamber has no idea about business... and Boris has spoken. You want to think big ... how about attarcting high paying jobs... how about broadening the tax base?? ... how about developing a high tech sector ... how about an exploding Bio-Med sector?? .... How about expanding the number of businesses within the city .... no no thats small beans compared to building trains.

Boris's links are definatly tilted towards a bias point of view, primarily with the input of people who know very little about building economies... but I am sure that has little to do with the arguement... as long as its on the web.

Look at Winnipeg's GDP per capita .. vs. Milwalkee .. Toronto .. Montreal ... or Calgary... or any other city Boris wants to mention. Go on and prove my point for me. Socialism has devistated Winnipeg's economy and you think trains will be the savior? Yeah okay ... you'll win the Nobel Prize of Economics with that theory.


Yup yup.. gotta be trains .. yup yup..
I'm sure Calgary wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is without light-rail. Without a rapid transit system there is no way the Winnipeg can grow in a sustainable way. That wasteful development costs the city hundreds of millions of dollars in additional infrastructure maintenance.

Nobody is denying that there should be tax cuts, I think most of them need to be made at the provincial and the ones that stifle investment need to be targeted.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
So rail transit is the be all and end of of thinking big??? Oh gee ....


Andy 6 has it exactly correct.... once you have a growing economy with some built up areas than rapid trasit can play a role within a growing city, but just throwing in a billion dollar rail trasit system will have little to not positive impact on a city with a weak economy... except to weaken it further with more debt and expenses.

It is obvious that in order to attract business you would need more than trains... unless the hundreds and hundreds of businesses in the chamber have it all wrong.

Yes the Chamber has no idea about business... and Boris has spoken. You want to think big ... how about attarcting high paying jobs... how about broadening the tax base?? ... how about developing a high tech sector ... how about an exploding Bio-Med sector?? .... How about expanding the number of businesses within the city .... no no thats small beans compared to building trains.

Boris's links are definatly tilted towards a bias point of view, primarily with the input of people who know very little about building economies... but I am sure that has little to do with the arguement... as long as its on the web.

Look at Winnipeg's GDP per capita .. vs. Milwalkee .. Toronto .. Montreal ... or Calgary... or any other city Boris wants to mention. Go on and prove my point for me. Socialism has devistated Winnipeg's economy and you think trains will be the savior? Yeah okay ... you'll win the Nobel Prize of Economics with that theory.


Yup yup.. gotta be trains .. yup yup..
sad but true
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 12:59 AM
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I think that everyone here knows that LRT won't be Winnipeg's saving grace. It's pretty obvious.

However, can someone please explain to me the logic on how cities such as Spokane, Wa. and K-W, Ont. with metro population of about 450 000 people are managing to impliment LRT, while Winnipeg continues to refuse to budge from the 17th century?
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 1:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8 View Post
I'm sure Calgary wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is without light-rail. Without a rapid transit system there is no way the Winnipeg can grow in a sustainable way. That wasteful development costs the city hundreds of millions of dollars in additional infrastructure maintenance.

Nobody is denying that there should be tax cuts, I think most of them need to be made at the provincial and the ones that stifle investment need to be targeted.
I agree with you Calgary wouldn't be the city it is today without trains.

My Point is you have to put the horse before the cart... set the ground work to make a successful economy, so that once a rail system is established the city can capitalize on it. Calgary was already a very business friendly city, once the C-Train system was set up. This is a very important point. If you try to do it in reverse .. (train first - economy second) once the rail system is in place the city's economy will be sattled with expenses that the small tax base can not afford, never mind focus any resouces on building the business sector through tax incentives.

We must focus on building the momentum towards greater prosperity first. We need to make Winnipeg an investment friendly city again. We need to draw investement, not just for the downtown, but for the Biomed City at the HSC and Smart Park at the UofM, as well other core business districts. These areas are made up of investment intensive operations. Biomed City needs to be empowered with R&D tax incentives, if it wants to attract more hightech operations. This also goes for hightech companies, who are looking for a place to establish operations. Winnipeg could and should be able to capitalize on this sector, with the amount of University and College grads being produced every year, but our economy does not allow for that. Cities like Ottawa, Vancouver and Montreal are eating our lunch.

The various large employers are calling for an end to the Payroll Tax, which is penalizing them for every new employee they hire and invest in. Winnipeg also suffers from a Capital Tax which is an extra tax on businesses who own capital (not land) worth over $5M. This retards the contruction business as any building which is worth over that 5M mark is giving an extra tax. Now also consider that Manitoba is one of the few governments in North America with these two excessive investment killing taxes.

Build the economy so there is a reason to increase transit capacity. It can't be built in reverse.
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Last edited by newflyer; Mar 29, 2007 at 1:05 AM.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 1:19 AM
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The Manitoba Chamber of Commerce is cautiously enthusiastic for rapid transit and recognizes its potential benefits but the MCC seem to be waiting for the city to propose a clearly articulated, staged plan.

http://www.winnipeg-chamber.com/PDF/...ew/Transit.pdf

Quote:
Rapid Transit is leading-edge public transportation that can move more people, more quickly and create powerful solutions to many challenges our city faces. It can have a positive impact on economic development, downtown revitalization, renewal of inner city neighbourhoods and environmental stewardship. By embracing technological advancements in transit, we can rejuvenate public interest and accelerate growth in our transit system — an essential element of any major progressive city.

Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce Recommendations:
• Examine the following criteria to determine whether The Chamber
supports rapid transit:
Sustainability – Is rapid transit sustainable?
Public support – Is there public support for rapid transit?
Good for business – Does rapid transit serve as a catalyst for a
healthy and prosperous community that offers a strong foundation
for business location and expansion?
Value to taxpayers – What is the cost of the different modes of
rapid transit? Is there a return on investment? The cost must be
transparent to the public.
Financing options – How will the City pay for rapid transit? There
must be a strategy for obtaining substantial federal and provincial
government funding and public/private partnership.
Improved customer service – How measure success?

• Proceed with rapid transit only once the City of Winnipeg puts clear
and specific measurements in place with respect to identified
objectives (i.e. - increased ridership, customer satisfaction, improved
travel times/flow).
• Implement a rapid transit system in stages that would allow for an
evaluation to determine the success of rapid transit before taxpayer
dollars are spent on subsequent stages.
• Clearly articulate the implementation plan for rapid transit and provide
opportunities for public consultation.
Jimi or Galston, does TruWinnipeg know the status of the 2004-2005 Special Rapid Transit Task Force BRT plan? Has there been any movement at all to address the critera the MCC lay out here?
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 2:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Mango View Post
The Manitoba Chamber of Commerce is cautiously enthusiastic for rapid transit and recognizes its potential benefits but the MCC seem to be waiting for the city to propose a clearly articulated, staged plan.

http://www.winnipeg-chamber.com/PDF/...ew/Transit.pdf



Jimi or Galston, does TruWinnipeg know the status of the 2004-2005 Special Rapid Transit Task Force BRT plan? Has there been any movement at all to address the critera the MCC lay out here?
Very good.. your searching has impressed me. With a set criteria a Rapid transit system constructed in stages .. but we must be able to anwser those very important questions.

I am not against rapid transit ... if it is done in tandum with economic expansion it could be a very positive development. I just don't want it to be the one and only focus and than watch the economy 10 years done the road crippled under debt and expenses.

A modern and healthy city with a strong economy needs rapid transit.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 3:37 AM
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I'm also curious to know how this thread became a sticky
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 3:45 AM
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I'm also curious to know how this thread became a sticky
Yeah me too ... its probibly not a sticky status thread.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 4:49 AM
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I'm also curious to know how this thread became a sticky
Perhaps the list admin is not so passive-aggressivlely expressing his political leanings ...

As someone who actually pays taxes in Winnipeg, I think a modest LRT would be a good use of my tax dollars. Most capital funding comes from senior levels of government anyway.

I don't necessarily buy the cart/horse argument WRT Calgary. Calgary extended its LRT far into the burbs before there was any density at all to support it, and was surrounded by park and ride lots. When I was there last year that hadn't changed much but perhaps it is beginning to. Calgary also has a huge proportion of its workforce located downtown. The LRT appears to me to be a forward-thinking exercise in good planning with generally positive results in terms of land use (huge sprawl issues notwithstanding).
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2007, 5:28 AM
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Not to mention, they also did it when their economy was in the crapper.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2007, 4:19 PM
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Hey look, another transit study.


Transit study in works
By ROSS ROMANIUK, SUN MEDIA

Tell the city where to go with its transit system and one-way streets. No, seriously.

City hall wants to know what Winnipeg bus riders and motorists want and need in public transit and its overall street system, and why. And it will launch an extensive study within months to get the answers.

"It's a fairly big project," Coun. Jenny Gerbasi (Fort Rouge-East Fort Garry) told Sun Media last night.

"We need a really accurate picture of the transportation needs and transportation habits of Winnipeggers. Then we can build around what riders really need as we expand the service."

The study comes as Winnipeg Transit works with city hall -- slowly -- to plan the early components of a two-phase, $270-million rapid bus system that would rely in part on designated routes for so-called "articulated" coaches, two of which are to hit the streets this year.


Little has been confirmed as to how the $800,000 probe -- the latest of several local transit and traffic studies in recent years -- will be carried out, though politicians say this one is long overdue.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2007, 4:21 PM
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Little has been confirmed as to how the $800,000 probe -- the latest of several local transit and traffic studies in recent years -- will be carried out, though politicians say this one is long overdue.
I could have told them what's wrong with transit and the road system for only $700,000.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2007, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by swolfe View Post
Hey look, another transit study.


Transit study in works
By ROSS ROMANIUK, SUN MEDIA

Tell the city where to go with its transit system and one-way streets. No, seriously.

City hall wants to know what Winnipeg bus riders and motorists want and need in public transit and its overall street system, and why. And it will launch an extensive study within months to get the answers.

"It's a fairly big project," Coun. Jenny Gerbasi (Fort Rouge-East Fort Garry) told Sun Media last night.

"We need a really accurate picture of the transportation needs and transportation habits of Winnipeggers. Then we can build around what riders really need as we expand the service."

The study comes as Winnipeg Transit works with city hall -- slowly -- to plan the early components of a two-phase, $270-million rapid bus system that would rely in part on designated routes for so-called "articulated" coaches, two of which are to hit the streets this year.


Little has been confirmed as to how the $800,000 probe -- the latest of several local transit and traffic studies in recent years -- will be carried out, though politicians say this one is long overdue.
something is moving finally

oh Winnipeg, i can't wait for you forever

OT: noticed how the geese are back? Still it's supposed to stay cold for one week at least
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2007, 10:00 PM
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The study comes as Winnipeg Transit works with city hall -- slowly -- to plan the early components of a two-phase, $270-million rapid bus system that would rely in part on designated routes for so-called "articulated" coaches, two of which are to hit the streets this year.


There you go guys... your prayers have been answered. In addition The Monitoba Government just got a $255M boost in transfer payments .. so it could start contruction in the next couple years. If the stars aliegn.
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2007, 11:28 AM
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There you go guys... your prayers have been answered. In addition The Monitoba Government just got a $255M boost in transfer payments .. so it could start contruction in the next couple years. If the stars aliegn.
Not if the next Premier of Manitoba, Mr. McFadyen gets in.
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