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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2008, 12:31 PM
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Yes but they usually aren't as passionate about their positions as far left or far right wing people are.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2008, 12:32 PM
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too bad Dryden wasn't running the liberals, they'd be toe to toe with the Cons (imho)
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2008, 12:33 PM
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i think the cons are losing ground right now as the liberals are really stepping up the ads comparing Harper to Bush. the economy is in trouble and the more of this you see, the more harper number will slide.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2008, 2:24 PM
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Yes but they usually aren't as passionate about their positions as far left or far right wing people are.
Well I'll admit Atheists might not be as passionate as many religious groups, but that might be because its easier to be passionate about something then it is to be passionate about nothing.

However a centrist ideology such as the liberals or even small-c conservatives don't believe in nothing, there is still something for them to rally around. Good governance, Fair policies, Economy with Society in harmony.

Maybe its because I'm from the St.Boniface ridding but I know maybe individuals who are liberals and are very passionate about it. That's not to say it represents all liberals but it's always been my impression that liberals are just as passionate about their beliefs as the far left or far right.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2008, 4:06 PM
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Let me elaborate on my theory regarding the connection between political activism and lawn signs.

Well I do admit that there are quite a few Liberal signs in St.Boniface. I think they are mostly in response to the polarizing views of both the Conservatives and NDP.

Let’s face it; Harper is a socially conservative demagogue and Layton a closet Marxist. It's easy to see why moderates would react by putting up Liberal lawn signs. The extremist views of both the left and right in this election warrant a response.

Personally, I think it would be interesting to compare the number of lawn signs in St.B during the last provincial election versus this current federal election.

My own guess is that because the views of the provincial Progressive Conservatives and Doer NDP are much more centrist, the people of St.B were alot less likely to put up lawn signs showing their support for either party.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2008, 6:12 PM
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I understand the argument, I'm just having difficulty buying it on a practical level. Is this to say that Liberal support is largely passive? That nobody is ideological Liberal, they are simply not ideologically Conservative or New Democrat, and therefore are Liberal?

It seems somewhat strange to me. Not implausible, just difficult to grasp. I'm sure there are many passive Conservative supporters. I know many Conservative voters who don't wave the party towel ever, nor even keep close tabs on the political situation, but will passively vote Conservative at nearly every turn.

I guess my statement would be, why can't you be ideologically Liberal? Many people I know have some views that line up right down the middle of the field. Wouldn't that make them ideologically Liberal (at least in the pre-Dion days, and perhaps in the present as well?)?

Now, don't get me wrong, I do think the right wing is much more dedicated to their cause in a holistic sense than is the left wing. That is to say that Conservative supporters (largely) tend to tie themselves very closely to the Conservative party. No question.

Nonetheless, I still think that the most successful political brand perhaps in the Western world, that being the Liberal Party of Canada, couldn't have achieved such lofty levels of prevalence, on little more than a large, predominantly passive following. My point being, even Liberal's have an ideological bent. I don't think you can tether people to a party without an ideological bent. Perhaps I'm missing something. Interesting debate though.
I've thought long and hard throughout my time pondering much the same questions. One thing that people need to keep in mind is that the (mainstream) political parties in Canada differ substantially from academic political philosophy/ideology.

For example, the three main parties do not fall in line with classical liberalism, socialism, and conservatism. In fact, it's apparent that the Cons (the party) have strong neoclassical liberal ideas underlying within their policies. On the other hand, the NDP has embraced elements of conservatism (particularly noticeable in provincial politics and governments).

I'll also quickly point out, for future reference, that in the world of academia political, economic, and sociological studies will often use the term "capital "L" Liberal" (the party) and "lowercase "l" liberal" (the ideology). Same can be said about the Cons and conservatism.

So, one could argue that due to the nature of our actual political parties all having a liberal and conservative ideological platform/governing style, none of them are true ideologies - at least, from an academic perspective. In fact, the ideology 'neoliberalism' attempts to address this blend under one theory.

However, lets talk about what we actually see "on main street" (god, that term is really getting worn-out these days), and the practical application of analysis in the Canadian political system.

In Canada, Jane and Joe Public will identify two mainstream ideologies with certain common features within the two ends of the spectrum - (Jane and Joe have also simplified it as "Left-Wing" and "Right-Wing," or "Hard Left" and "Hard Right"). And I mean "mainstream ideologies" in that they are related to practical issues of what people perceive in their day-to-day life. They are not thinking of how to reach utopia, as the academic ideologies do.

Anyway, what I have listed in no way represents the limits of the ideologies, just what has come to top-of-mind:


"Left Wing":

- Environmentalism (green planet, fresh air)
- The Welfare State/Socialism (note, socialism should NOT to be confused with Marxism or communism). (for example, our public health care and education systems are key elements of The Welfare State.)
- Women's issues/rights (being discriminated in the past is justification for using discrimination themselves)
- Minority issues/rights (dido my comments above)
- Unions & "the working man"


"Right Wing"

- Fiscally/financially responsible
- (old fashioned) Moral/Social values. (pro-life, opposition to gay marriage, etc.)
- Let the free market be completely free (we got to see how well that worked out)
- Small government/reduce the size of bureaucracy
- Support of corporations, based on the idea of jobs and prosperity "trickling down"
- Tax Cuts! Tax Cuts! Tax Cuts!

Sorry, but I couldn't help but add my explanation of these items.

Taking all this into account, and how I'm of the belief that mainstream "Joe and Jane Public" believe there to be two ideologies, this is why I had posted earlier that typical Lib supporters are not as ideologically driven. In their heart-of-hearts, they often fall into the "Right" or the "Left."

Those who are more in-your-face, or excited about their pure ideals will normally be in either the NDP or Con camp. As well, these types are more prone to announcing their voting intention through signs, online polls, etc.

Getting back to it, is the Liberal party, or support for it ideologically rooted? I would contend that it is, and it is not.

Academically, they (as do the other parties) fall into neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism of academic thought, and both these "neo" ideologies are essentially hybrids of the work of Adam Smith, John Locke, Immanuel Kant, and I could go on... So, not a true ideology in an academic sense.

In a practical politics sense, then I do see your point that it can be construed as an ideology... and I would contend it to be the the ideology of compromise. Many people may vote Lib because of strategic voting, or because for the most part they represent their views. So, again, it's the ideology of practicality, or the policy to not go too extreme in either direction (in other words, centric).

But, there's nothing all that politically sexy or exciting about Liberal policy, for the most part, as it's a careful approach. The NDP and the Cons both have very passionate supporters, rooted in certain fundamental beliefs. The Lib supporters, it's hard to be outwardly excited about "a prudent, cautious, status-quo" approach.

However, one could look at the Libs track record, and fiscal Cons or environmentalists could be impressed. The economy has done very well, historically, under Liberal governments. Or provincially, the NDP has actually upset many of their ideologically-driven supporters for being fiscally conservative (yes, despite the Hugh McFadden soundbites and talking points, it's true guys)... besides, can one really call the provincial NDP out as being fiscally irresponsible socialists? With the balanced budgets? With Manitoba's strong economic growth? With several different types of tax cuts over the years? If you guys think that electing Hugh McFadden will mean that a few new high rise commercial buildings will go up in downtown that otherwise wouldn't in an NDP gov, then you're setting yourself up for much disappointment. I'm off topic!

Also, don't get me wrong that the Libs are only a status-quo and cautious party, as they've had many progressive and daring policies in their time, agree or disagree as you might, they have taken some risk - notably the 1982 Constitution and Charter.

Still, however, their policy items come from both "The Left" and "The Right."

Let me come out an say that I'm voting Liberal this election (I'm not a party member, but they get my vote this time). Why? Due to a blend of policies.

While I do understand the importance of fiscal responsibility and tax cuts for corporations and individuals (albeit, not to an extreme degree), I just cannot vote for the Cons as I have very strong disagreements with certain elements within the party. Namely, outdated social/moral values. I consider myself to be extremely socially liberal (surprise!), and a Con majority, given certain party and elected officials, is IMO cause for great concern (I also don't want the fundamental and evangelical christian types getting too happy with themselves).

So, again, if the concept of strategic voting or embracing a blend of ideals is an ideology, then I suppose that the Libs are a mainstream ideological party.

And where do the Greens fit? Nowhere really! But that's a whole other discussion.

p.s., there may also be some lingering embarrassment from the Sponsorship Scandal as to why Lib supporters are not as up-front about their voting intentions.

Last edited by DowntownWpg; Oct 8, 2008 at 6:30 PM.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2008, 3:12 AM
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Well I'll admit Atheists might not be as passionate as many religious groups, but that might be because its easier to be passionate about something then it is to be passionate about nothing.
Atheists are passionate and extreme. Look at Richard Dawkings or anyone from the Netherlands or Denmark. Agnostics are people who neither believe nor disbelieve in a god, and they are the ones who are not considered passionate. You don't see people running around saying "Everyone is wrong! We should be apathetic to the possible existence or non-existence of (a) diety/ies!", but you do see people forcing religion on us to that we'll be moral and saved from hell or writing books about how all religions are based on lies to control people. You never see that kind of action from agnostics.

atheist - agnostic - theist
=
leftist - centrist - rightist
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2008, 4:14 AM
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Hmm I really thought of Agnostics as people who just don't vote, well not in the literal sense since many do, but in terms of our comparison models.

Not voting is like saying I don't believe in any of the parties/ideologies, and my belief in one of them isn't going to change anything, since government / god or a lack of government/God is just going to play out anyways.

This is the way I see it.

One religion - Atheist - other religion :Agnostic

Left Wing - Centrist - Right Wing :Non voters

A centrist filiosophy isn't a lack of a philosophy such as an agnostic who is unsure one way or the other, but a centrist filiosophy is still something to believe in just like a religion or Atheisim.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2008, 6:24 PM
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Agnostics are half-assed atheists. They know that what the major religious groups foist upon the masses is complete BS, as well, they doubt all the paranormal and supernatural beliefs (such as a "god" existing, etc).

However, they are half-assed in that they want insurance for the afterlife, should it turn out that there is a god.

Just my theory!

Check out the Woody Allen quote in my signature re: government.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2008, 6:41 PM
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However, they are half-assed in that they want insurance for the afterlife, should it turn out that there is a god.
that sounds about right...
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2008, 4:00 PM
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My Manitoba Federal Riding Prediction:

- Nothing will change!


Some further thoughts on Saint Boniface:

I know many of you are going to point to Saint Boniface as a seat the Tory’s will take this election. I’ve been thinking of the argument recently of how the suburban area of this federal riding (Southdale, Windsor Park, Island Lakes, Royalwood were mentioned) will vote Conservative.

As such, I recently looked into the provincial ridings that make up this suburban portion of the federal Saint Boniface federal riding. The provincial ridings that are either completely or partly within the ‘suburban area’ of Saint Boniface are:

Radison, Riel, Southdale, St. Vital.

And guess what? These provincial ridings all have NDP MLAs.

My thinking is that most of the NDP voters in this riding, provincially, will be voting for Simard. I can’t foresee many provincial NDP voters turning Conservative federally. They’d vote either Lib or NDP (and the NDP hasn’t run a strong campaign in this election in St.B). At the very least, this illustrates that the suburban area of the St.B federal seat isn’t as Conservative as some may suggest.


Later this afternoon, I’m going to make a prediction of the amount of seats each federal party will win today. I’m still toiling with this prediction a bit.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2008, 5:23 PM
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My prediction for House of Common's seats:

Cons: 127
Libs: 92
NDP: 37
Bloc: 50
Green: 0
Indep: 2


***

Also, I've got an election day conspiracy theory:

Today, Oct. 14th, three soldiers were killed in Afghanistan. The nationalities of the soldiers has not yet been released. This is odd, normally the news release comes from the country of the deceased soldiers. This is even when the identities have not been released (eg: Canadian Forces: "three Canadian soldiers, who's names are being withheld at this time, were killed today....").

However, today on Election Day in Canada, the release came from NATO, and no nationalities mentioned as of yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/1...ghan-nato.html

Did you know that three more Canadian soldiers killed will bring the total Canadian soldier deaths in Afghanistan to 100? It's true.

And today is election day...

Would NATO be helping out Harper and the Cons here, knowing that the Cons are the strongest supporters of Canada in Afghanistan at this time? As such, is NATO not releasing the nationalities until after the polls close (possible Conservative/Harper urging)?

This way, people don't go to vote thinking about the big number 100.

Chances are they're American, but if we later find out they were Canadian, IMO it would speak to my crazy little theory here.

Last edited by DowntownWpg; Oct 14, 2008 at 8:19 PM.
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2008, 10:23 PM
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My Manitoba Federal Riding Prediction:

- Nothing will change!

EXACTLY! What a waste of time and $$$.

Harper should roast over this, all this expense to further nothing but his own ego. There's no way he will improve his standing, he's too cold and unlikeable.

My own rant is that I wish there was a democratic way I could officially spoil my ballot.

I asked about this, and elections officer said I could do this but that it wouldn't be counted.

Personally, I'd love to have the option of voting for "None of the Above".

I think there are lots of people out there that don't bother to vote because they are disenfranchised with the parties. And so, they get grouped with the people who are too lazy to vote or don't care.

I VERY much care, but in Kildonan-St.Paul my choices were between a blind marxist, an Anti-Semite, and a 'family values' conservative.

None of these people speak for me.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 3:16 AM
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NDP won churchill and elmwood transcona
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 3:20 AM
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What a spectacular choice of candidates in Elmwood- Transcona a scruffy liberal, a do-nothing former MLA, a dumb soon to be single and broke former Winnipeg Jet!

PS I voted GREEN
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 3:29 AM
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so did i and i still have the tung twister judy as my mp lol
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 3:45 AM
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so did i and i still have the tung twister judy as my mp lol
You mean, Judy-Wash-the-Dishes-Please?
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 3:47 AM
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Wow, what an utterly pointless exercise that was.

Manitoba's portion of the election cost could have easily went into something more meaingful like rapid transit.

I hope the Cons are happy, they wasted $260 million of taxpayers money in this sordid affair.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 3:59 AM
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Wow, what an utterly pointless exercise that was.

Manitoba's portion of the election cost could have easily went into something more meaingful like rapid transit.

I hope the Cons are happy, they wasted $260 million of taxpayers money in this sordid affair.
corectio harper wasted 260million somone should send him the bill

cause at this rate this decade will be known as the decade of elections like wtf?
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2008, 4:37 AM
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Etobicoke Centre in Toronto is represented by Borys Wrzesnewskyj. Wasylycia-Leis is nothing.

Voter turn out, from what I've heard, is about 56%. Among aboriginals, it's likely closer to 80%.
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