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  #2841  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 5:01 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Authentic_City View Post
I've read this article before, but wow, such contempt for the building by the owner. The value of the building is in the footprint... geeze. It's attitudes like this that hold back the redevelopment of downtown and create more surface parking lots.
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Originally Posted by wardlow View Post
Absolutely.
Sorry guys, but no.

Until you've operated a building like that, or run a business from a building like that, you can't accuse someone of contempt for the building's value. You think it's that attitude that holds back re-development? It's cost of operating, size constraints, loading constraints (which are HUGE), and layout constraints which are preventing income generation or residential conversion (and of course some owners' unwillingness to sell). Like, he said he had to turn down work because they could not load/supply from that location. He said it RIGHT THERE. His contempt clearly comes from a lifetime of stress over this. You can bet that literally for decades, they've had this building, struggled to make best use with it, and clearly tried to make something work, only to be stonewalled by the structure's limitations or heritage committees.

I'm not being insensitive to a building's heritage, but whether you're a landlord of the building, a property manager of it, or a tenant operating within, it's always a business first. Businesses support the livelihoods of human beings. Some of you are being insensitive to that. Building history IS important, but this forum forgets... buildings have a JOB to do.

We can wax lyrical about the historical and romantic aspects of heritage, but ask any heritage landlord or property manager... it's NOT easy. It's a pain in the ass, you have many more limitations to making effective changes, and thousands of people watching you like a hawk, ready to crucify you. It is absolutely a labour of love, and if you eat away at profitability, love can flounder.

I will reiterate, however, that I'm a soft advocate for heritage. We have to be able to value what we have. But we have to be honest with ourselves also... if it's not working, it's not working. Sometimes keeping a building like this as-is to appease a city or committee could be akin to a bad marriage staying together for the children. Except nobody is willing to buy. We're not Toronto or Vancouver, where elaborate improvements don't dent a big financial upside.
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  #2842  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 5:17 PM
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^I think you have missed the point. I agree that buildings have a certain use value, and if a manufacturing operation like Nutty Club can no longer use a building in a certain way because of inadequate loading facilities or whatever, then the building no longer has value as a factory. But it's clear that fellow has no experience in adaptive reuse/redevelopment of heritage buildings and doesn't seem interested in learning how. OK, fair enough. So why not sell the building and let the someone else use it for a different purpose? I thought I heard a rumor that some sort of craft brewery was interested in the building? What I get from the comments of this owner is that he would be content to neglect the building until it has to be demolished. I'm totally ok with businesses operating factories or warehouses in heritage buildings, but demolition by neglect is not OK.
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  #2843  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2017, 7:09 AM
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Yeah the sidewalk on that stretch is pathetically thin, almost non-existent. Hopefully there is a phase two for the East Exchange streetscape improvements. It would be amazing to see that part of Alexander turned into another "woonerf" or shared street like John Hirsch Place. I know we have all had wet dreams about this particular building and street.
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  #2844  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2017, 2:18 PM
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Exactly. It is totally not contributing to the area as much as a mix of residential, F&B, and retail would. Aside from a few folks smoking outside the building, it’s pretty much a dead zone.
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  #2845  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2017, 5:26 PM
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I think the new angled parking on Bannatyne has been completely transformative and it's naturally turned that block into a woonerf on its own – and it works perfectly. With the fact that when it's time to put a sidewalk on the south side it'll either have to be raised up, or all the trees come down, I think it's a good candidate for woonerf. And duplicate it on McDermot from Waterfront>Rorie. Doesn't even have to be anything fancy like John Hirsch – just have curbless streets with bollards. People are already walking all over it (I like that) so why not go full-in. Might spark some redevelopment of the giant surface lot, and create our long-desired pedestrian street, almost by accident, and not where we all expected. The north side of Bannatyne there is already almost completely CRUs... we have 3/4 of one side of one good retail street!!!!!!
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  #2846  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Authentic_City View Post
^I think you have missed the point. I agree that buildings have a certain use value, and if a manufacturing operation like Nutty Club can no longer use a building in a certain way because of inadequate loading facilities or whatever, then the building no longer has value as a factory. But it's clear that fellow has no experience in adaptive reuse/redevelopment of heritage buildings and doesn't seem interested in learning how. OK, fair enough. So why not sell the building and let the someone else use it for a different purpose? I thought I heard a rumor that some sort of craft brewery was interested in the building? What I get from the comments of this owner is that he would be content to neglect the building until it has to be demolished. I'm totally ok with businesses operating factories or warehouses in heritage buildings, but demolition by neglect is not OK.
A few comments on this post.

Nutty Club buildings are not in jepordy of serious neglect. They are owned by a very viable business that employes a number of people as does the great west metal building. If these companies suddenly picked up and moved, closed or were forced out by government regulations they would sit vacant and at HUGE risk of demolition. Not every building in the area can or will be blasted clean and sanitized for a bunch of people in black tapping away at computers and drinking coffee at Forth or Parlour. There are just not enough companies in the city of fill those buildings in that way. We must do everything we can to ensure they can continue to operate as is.

I am at a loss why the vacant buildings we have are not taken by the city. (St Charles as the most glaring example).

The other issue are the tax laws which also make it very difficult to sell buildings held for long period of time due to recapture and capital gain. It's way better to borrow against an asset and use that money than sell the building.

It's not the building owner that is the problem. It's still the lack of demand for renovated space, taxes, government and city regulations and taxation that is the challenge.

Without new tax grants there will be no chance of much new residential in the buildings you are worried about.

Best wishes as we head into a new year.
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  #2847  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 5:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Labroco View Post
A few comments on this post.

Nutty Club buildings are not in jepordy of serious neglect. They are owned by a very viable business that employes a number of people as does the great west metal building. If these companies suddenly picked up and moved, closed or were forced out by government regulations they would sit vacant and at HUGE risk of demolition. Not every building in the area can or will be blasted clean and sanitized for a bunch of people in black tapping away at computers and drinking coffee at Forth or Parlour. There are just not enough companies in the city of fill those buildings in that way. We must do everything we can to ensure they can continue to operate as is.

I am at a loss why the vacant buildings we have are not taken by the city. (St Charles as the most glaring example).

The other issue are the tax laws which also make it very difficult to sell buildings held for long period of time due to recapture and capital gain. It's way better to borrow against an asset and use that money than sell the building.

It's not the building owner that is the problem. It's still the lack of demand for renovated space, taxes, government and city regulations and taxation that is the challenge.

Without new tax grants there will be no chance of much new residential in the buildings you are worried about.

Best wishes as we head into a new year.
Great post. I think we are a long, LONG way in downtown and the Exchange from having to worry about active manufacturing businesses as being the biggest problem in the area.
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  #2848  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 7:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labroco View Post
A few comments on this post.

Nutty Club buildings are not in jepordy of serious neglect. They are owned by a very viable business that employes a number of people as does the great west metal building. If these companies suddenly picked up and moved, closed or were forced out by government regulations they would sit vacant and at HUGE risk of demolition. Not every building in the area can or will be blasted clean and sanitized for a bunch of people in black tapping away at computers and drinking coffee at Forth or Parlour. There are just not enough companies in the city of fill those buildings in that way. We must do everything we can to ensure they can continue to operate as is.

I am at a loss why the vacant buildings we have are not taken by the city. (St Charles as the most glaring example).

The other issue are the tax laws which also make it very difficult to sell buildings held for long period of time due to recapture and capital gain. It's way better to borrow against an asset and use that money than sell the building.

It's not the building owner that is the problem. It's still the lack of demand for renovated space, taxes, government and city regulations and taxation that is the challenge.

Without new tax grants there will be no chance of much new residential in the buildings you are worried about.

Best wishes as we head into a new year.
Do agree with pretty much all this except that there are some cases where it's 100% an owner issue. Whether it's laziness, ineptitude, or waiting from some property value surge to cash out, there are such thing as bad owners.
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  #2849  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2017, 5:29 PM
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I'd prefer to see it become main floor retail / "market" – there's a building I saw a while back (maybe in Portland?) that looked exactly like this – they essentially built a deck along the side that acted as a sidewalk and patio space for cafes, and each loading bay was a CRU. Something to the affect of Quincy Market in Boston or Akarenga in Yokohoma, Japan.

Fair call. I think because of the unique oppportunity for street residential for this building in particular I'd like to see it be used for that - just screams 'row houses' to me. The open market idea is a good one and have seen similar buildings used for such a thing. My main goal first is get people living downtown - pack them in there - to make demand for markets and the like. I think still at this time a market there wouldn't be as bustling as we'd like until more people living in the immediate area. Doesn't mean bad idea but for now at least I prioritize residential.

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That being said, as much of the building is still in use, I'd rather see more surface lots or underused buildings redeveloped before we start "uprooting" the long-standing businesses here. While the stock is slowly depleting, there are plenty of other lots/buildings with nothing going on that would be wise to redevelop first. The city could definitely clean up the street there, though.
Agree with that. As long as that building isn't torn down when/if that business leaves there will be the opportunity - as long as the building is in use that shouldn't happen. It's not as if its surrounded by residential yet. Just fun to talk about - that building in particular has a tonne of potential.
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  #2850  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2017, 6:08 PM
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^I just think that for the amount of surface area it takes up, you wouldn't get that high density residential out of it as it's one storey. Better to have more 4-8 storey apartment and condo buildings IMO. Maybe walk-ups further north as the area gets better.
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  #2851  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2017, 5:47 AM
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^I just think that for the amount of surface area it takes up, you wouldn't get that high density residential out of it as it's one storey. Better to have more 4-8 storey apartment and condo buildings IMO. Maybe walk-ups further north as the area gets better.
the old eatons warehouse is prolly 3 floors
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  #2852  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 7:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Authentic_City View Post
^I think you have missed the point. I agree that buildings have a certain use value, and if a manufacturing operation like Nutty Club can no longer use a building in a certain way because of inadequate loading facilities or whatever, then the building no longer has value as a factory. But it's clear that fellow has no experience in adaptive reuse/redevelopment of heritage buildings and doesn't seem interested in learning how. OK, fair enough. So why not sell the building and let the someone else use it for a different purpose? I thought I heard a rumor that some sort of craft brewery was interested in the building? What I get from the comments of this owner is that he would be content to neglect the building until it has to be demolished. I'm totally ok with businesses operating factories or warehouses in heritage buildings, but demolition by neglect is not OK.
No, I got the point. You seem to imply that this is easy... lots of people do. I've seen some people make their money and go "hurdy durr, I'll try the development thing" and fall flat. Hard.

It is a far more logical to assume that the owner did in fact look into all the necessary changes required to put the building into any state of ideal use, whether factory, office or residential. He did mention doing so in the article. There are very few who have substantial experience in heritage repurposing in this city, and it ain't easy for them... so you can't fault this guy for not having an easy time here.

It is currently operating as a business and therefore not being neglected. Since it's working, making money, and is his property, his land, he sure as shit doesn't owe it to anyone to sell it so "someone else can develop it". Even moreso because due to the aforementioned columns spacing, size, elevator access, and myriad of other problems that come with an old building of that vintage, the next guy will a) offer too little money, and b) also struggle. There is a reason these buildings are struggling to sell elsewhere in the exchange.

As far as a brewery (nonsuch?) being interested, well, who knows... the article is now over 10 years old so that's not really relevant.

I've owned a 110 year old house, worked maintenance as a kid on heritage building, been a tenant in a 110 year old office building (grain exchange), and can tell you it's not easy.

I understand the emotional and historical value of heritage, especially for a city. But that doesn't feed the family or help the bottom line. Those can't be ignored, and the solutions are not that simple.

And of course, as Labroco has also mentioned, it's currently in a deadzone.
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  #2853  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2017, 6:27 PM
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No, I got the point. You seem to imply that this is easy... lots of people do. I've seen some people make their money and go "hurdy durr, I'll try the development thing" and fall flat. Hard.

It is a far more logical to assume that the owner did in fact look into all the necessary changes required to put the building into any state of ideal use, whether factory, office or residential. He did mention doing so in the article. There are very few who have substantial experience in heritage repurposing in this city, and it ain't easy for them... so you can't fault this guy for not having an easy time here.

It is currently operating as a business and therefore not being neglected. Since it's working, making money, and is his property, his land, he sure as shit doesn't owe it to anyone to sell it so "someone else can develop it". Even moreso because due to the aforementioned columns spacing, size, elevator access, and myriad of other problems that come with an old building of that vintage, the next guy will a) offer too little money, and b) also struggle. There is a reason these buildings are struggling to sell elsewhere in the exchange.

As far as a brewery (nonsuch?) being interested, well, who knows... the article is now over 10 years old so that's not really relevant.

I've owned a 110 year old house, worked maintenance as a kid on heritage building, been a tenant in a 110 year old office building (grain exchange), and can tell you it's not easy.

I understand the emotional and historical value of heritage, especially for a city. But that doesn't feed the family or help the bottom line. Those can't be ignored, and the solutions are not that simple.

And of course, as Labroco has also mentioned, it's currently in a deadzone.
I didn't mean to imply that restoration and adaptive reuse of a heritage building is easy. I am simply reacting to the building owner's comment about the only value being the building's footprint. This seems to imply that he would like to see the building demolished. I'm somewhat reassured by Labroco's comments about the owner. But you have to admit that when the owner of a warehouse in the Exchange muses in the local media about the only value of their building being its footprint, a person can connect the dots.

But, the article is now 10 years old and the building still stands. This is a good thing.

I wish I could find the comment about the potential brewery interest this space. Does anyone else remember this? Or did I just imagine this? Could be Nonsuch as they have indicated that their location will be downtown. Who knows.
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  #2854  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2017, 6:09 PM
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^It was Nonsuch, however they cancelled their plans. I heard rumours about the space not being adaptable enough – not sure if that was on the grounds of the building owner or heritage/structural reasons.
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  #2855  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2017, 6:57 PM
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nonesuch is working on funding their space it will happen takes time with the city on these types of spaces with permits and such... plus right now they seem focused on creating some really good beer if u guys havent tried their saison u should tasty as hell got em to have it stocked in norther mb over twitter.... then bought 2 and took em to calgary for christmas yum witch were well injoyed with some friends. i will be buying more if theres any left when i pass through thompson also sounds like they got bunch more good brews coming out soon.


theres 4 nuttle club buildings fyi
nonsuch is supost to go in the one at lombard and waterfront

the portage and westbrook 2 story one is fully up to code and is home to les.net the taller one beside it is where they do the pop corn and the one across the lain is offices and storage for scott bathgate aka owners of the nutty club brand
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  #2856  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2018, 5:45 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Authentic_City View Post
I didn't mean to imply that restoration and adaptive reuse of a heritage building is easy. I am simply reacting to the building owner's comment about the only value being the building's footprint. This seems to imply that he would like to see the building demolished. I'm somewhat reassured by Labroco's comments about the owner. But you have to admit that when the owner of a warehouse in the Exchange muses in the local media about the only value of their building being its footprint, a person can connect the dots.

But, the article is now 10 years old and the building still stands. This is a good thing.

I wish I could find the comment about the potential brewery interest this space. Does anyone else remember this? Or did I just imagine this? Could be Nonsuch as they have indicated that their location will be downtown. Who knows.
Well, if the building has plenty of limitations, then yes, it's footprint/location might be its largest asset. If it can't generate revenue/profit, what value does it provide for any owner.

I dunno, maybe we're going in circles.

I thought Nonsuch was going in there, and that made me happy. Hopefully they end up somewhere else in the exchange.
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
nonesuch is working on funding their space it will happen takes time with the city on these types of spaces with permits and such... plus right now they seem focused on creating some really good beer if u guys havent tried their saison u should tasty as hell got em to have it stocked in norther mb over twitter.... then bought 2 and took em to calgary for christmas yum witch were well injoyed with some friends. i will be buying more if theres any left when i pass through thompson also sounds like they got bunch more good brews coming out soon.


theres 4 nuttle club buildings fyi
nonsuch is supost to go in the one at lombard and waterfront

the portage and westbrook 2 story one is fully up to code and is home to les.net the taller one beside it is where they do the pop corn and the one across the lain is offices and storage for scott bathgate aka owners of the nutty club brand
Is supposed to be in the on one lombard or was supposed to be? Either way, just glad to know they're still active.
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  #2857  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2018, 7:13 PM
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the one on lombard

you could ask em on twitter about whats happening
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  #2858  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2018, 8:49 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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the one on lombard

you could ask em on twitter about whats happening
I'm probably too old to figure that one out.

I'll email them, perhaps.
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  #2859  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2018, 7:10 AM
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herd bodegos is suppost to be reopening in the old pita pit space second hand info but sounded like was a go from the details i was given could be befor summer it sounded like

as for the old place the new owners are now stuck with a brown feild clean up befor they can progress anyfurther not sure how anyone would of missed that we even knew this on here...
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  #2860  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2018, 9:48 PM
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Figure this is the potentially the most relevant thread...

Sign up in the new Police HQ (in skywalk) that a new full-service polic credit union is opening soon. Anyone know if the Pricess St one is closing?

Building has great potential. Remove the planters and you could easily turn the windows to doors and subdivide the space. Hopefully if it does close the city siesn allow a new business with a drive thru, and ideally the building would be extended or a new one built to close the gap along Princess to Fairchild. Can still leave parking in back. *dreams*
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