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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 8:54 PM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
^ How do you think the food you eat gets to you? By hovercraft?

Sheesh, some people.
Because the back-up of traffic on the truck routes really assists him getting his food? I'm pretty sure that food got delivered to Downtown Winnipeg before Whyte Ridge got built.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 10:43 PM
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No one lives in downtown Winnipeg and there are no stores there anyway.

He was saying roads are not needed. That is ridiculous.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 4:36 AM
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I sometimes wonder what people would think of their property tax bills if Unicity never happened. I'm fairly certain that the neighbourhood I live in would be in dire straits, along with many others.
Ever heard of Detroit? If unicity had never happened I'd be paying a hell of a lot less than I do now in property taxes! The city of Winnipeg pays a very high price for both the WPS and WFPS in relation to similar sized cities in Canada. The city of Winnipeg has almost as many police officers as Edmonton which has a much larger population. Civic payroll eats up about 56% of city revenue up from about 47% less than ten years ago which is completely unsustainable! In other words economically unless Bowman and the new council don't find ways to reduce payroll through a variety of means were fucked!
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 2:06 PM
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Couple of articles that list Bowman's election pledges:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...rail-1.2810954

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spe...urce=d-tiles-1

The Freep has a more extensive list (sidebar), but the CBC goes in more detail about the main ones, including links to Brian's policy site.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 2:17 PM
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Bowman is friends with people in the local start up sean as well and ties to some of the stuff at assentworks could be very good for our city
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 2:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ediger View Post
if he gets rid of property taxes and puts in that civic sales tax, I'm going to lose it. I'm a renter, I shouldn't have to pay more for roads and services out to your crappy McMansion in another unneeded suburb.
Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't pay property taxes. Property taxes are paid for by tenants in the cost of their rent. (The calculated allowable rent increase guideline is even based in part on changes to property taxes). In fact, if you live in an apartment building as a renter, you end up indirectly paying more in property taxes than someone who owns a house of equivalent value (I believe the multi-residential-to-residential tax ratio in Winnipeg is 1.09).
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 3:07 PM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by borkborkbork View Post
Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't pay property taxes. Property taxes are paid for by tenants in the cost of their rent. (The calculated allowable rent increase guideline is even based in part on changes to property taxes). In fact, if you live in an apartment building as a renter, you end up indirectly paying more in property taxes than someone who owns a house of equivalent value (I believe the multi-residential-to-residential tax ratio in Winnipeg is 1.09).
This is interesting... Where did you get that number from? And do you know the methodology to how it got calculated?
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by steveosnyder View Post
This is interesting... Where did you get that number from? And do you know the methodology to how it got calculated?
This lists a different "portioned value" for different types of property:

http://www.winnipegassessment.com/As...ifications.stm

And I found this PDF:

http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/regs/curr...php?reg=184/98

From that PDF it seems like back in '99 and '00 "Residential 2" paid 1.09 times that of "Residential 1" but they were made equal in 2001.

So I don't know if I'm looking at the wrong thing, or if "1.09" is just old info. (The first link states "For example, all residential dwelling units pay taxes on 45% of their market value assessment.")

Last edited by rypinion; Oct 24, 2014 at 4:42 PM.
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 5:24 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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Originally Posted by borkborkbork View Post
Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't pay property taxes. Property taxes are paid for by tenants in the cost of their rent. (The calculated allowable rent increase guideline is even based in part on changes to property taxes). In fact, if you live in an apartment building as a renter, you end up indirectly paying more in property taxes than someone who owns a house of equivalent value (I believe the multi-residential-to-residential tax ratio in Winnipeg is 1.09).
This is not true. As a renter, you are subsidized by both your landlord and the general public.

Firstly, residential is residential in this city regardless of what the density is; everybody pays taxes at a set mill rate based upon 45% of the assessed value lagging two years. The only difference is that R1 and R2 zoning districts are valued on a comparable value basis whereas multi-family is valued at a certain capitalization rate using the city's own model. A copy of which can be found here:

http://www.winnipegassessment.com/As...Properties.pdf

Secondly, property taxes are absolutely not considered in the economic adjustment factor handed down by residential tenancies annually. And that's always been one of the issues. The allowable rent increase annually is derived entirely by the percentage change in the average annual “All-Items” Consumer Price Index (Manitoba only) data, which is published by Statistics Canada. And while this data is fine, it totally disregards the actual economic variables involved in rental housing - namely labour and materials - both of which are markets effected by a far broader region than just Manitoba.

Renters are subsidized in this province. Anybody suggesting otherwise just simply doesn't understand.
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 7:01 PM
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Might as well post them up for discussion for the group at hand and see what others think of his pledges that he made to get elected by the good people of Winnipeg. Here they are:

All eyes are on Brian Bowman, the City of Winnipeg’s newest mayor.

After months of listening to campaign promises from seven different candidates, only Bowman is left to deliver.

This is a list of 10 things Brian Bowman pledged, committed to or promised for the City of Winnipeg if he were elected mayor.

10. Put an off-leash dog park downtown

On Sept. 12, Bowman said he planned to create a fenced, off-leash dog park in downtown Winnipeg. The measure was part of his plan to create a stronger downtown, and it also included a collaboration with CentreVenture and the Downtown BIZ to “mandate to attract” a major grocery store to the downtown area within the next two years.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Developing a Downtown Neighbourhood

9. Reduce the city’s departmental operating costs by 2 per cent

Bowman has pledged to find two per cent in savings in the operating budgets of different city departments. He said he’ll do it by phasing in more fuel efficient vehicles, reducing salaries, switching software licenses to less expensive options and switching to LED light bulbs.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Targeting Cost Savings at City Hall

8. Increase small business tax credit to $30,000 and reduce business tax rate

On Aug. 20, Brian Bowman shook hands with Shwarma Khan owner and former Winnipeg Blue Bomber Obby Khan, promising to increase the small business tax credit to $30,000 from $23,880 to take effect in the 2015 tax year. He also pledged to reduce the business tax rate on an annual basis to offset increases in annual rental rates.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Supporting Small Business

7. Restore 5% in museum funding, establish creative campus in The Exchange

On Sept. 26, Bowman pledged to restore a 2013 five per cent reduction in funding for civic museums as well as establish a “dedicated capital fund for upgrades to existing cultural and heritage facilities” like concert halls and museums. He said his plan to make Winnipeg an internationally recognized leader in indigenous art and culture also included the creation of a “creative campus” in The Exchange District.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Winnipeg to be Internationally Recognized Leader in Indigenous Art & Culture

6. Open Portage and Main to pedestrians by 2019

On Aug. 11, Bowman pledged to tear down barriers at Portage Avenue and Main Street by no later than 2019. As part of that announcement, he also pledged to develop a seasonal pedestrian mall in The Exchange District.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Bowman Stands Up For Downtown Winnipeg

5. Open data at city hall (including putting some budgets online)

On June 26, Bowman committed to reducing freedom of information requests (FIPPAs) by 25 per cent in his first year in office and proposed a host of measures to make city data available online “unencumbered by restrictive licensing agreements” so the data could be freely used by research groups, community organizations and businesses. Earlier that month, Bowman proposed a host of measures to “lift the veil” at city hall, including posting detailed discretionary budgets of councillors online each month.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Lifting the Veil of Secrecy at City Hall and Unlocking the Door to City Hall.

4. Pump $10M more a year into infrastructure, form Build Winnipeg

On July 10, Bowman said he would invest an additional $10 million each year over the next for years into the city’s infrastructure budget, specifically to address roadwork.

About a month later, Bowman said one of his “first priorities” would be to create a cost-neutral Build Winnipeg partnership to deliver a 10-year repair plan for the city’s city’s roads, public transit and active transportation networks with representatives from several city departments.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Better Infrastructure for Winnipeg and BuildWINNIPEG partnership

3. Add Wi-Fi to buses and finish all rapid transit routes by 2030

On Sept. 2, Bowman pledged to put Wi-Fi on city buses, add additional bus shelters and finish all of the city’s bus rapid transit routes by 2030.

“We’re going to be looking at borrowing. We’re going to be doing everything we can to lead,” Bowman said. “I’m going to work with city officials. I’m going to work with the private sector, and we’re going to make it happen.”

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: http://www.bowmanforwinnipeg.ca/rapid_transit

2. Limit property tax increases to the rate of inflation

On Sept. 5, Bowman said he was committed to limiting property tax increases to the rate of inflation for the next four years.

Bowman said using the “average rate of inflation in Winnipeg over the last three years” that would mean an annual property tax increase of approximately two per cent.

Bowman's pledge on his campaign site: Bowman Pledges To Work Towards a New Tax Model

1. Overhaul city council, including cutting his own salary

On Aug. 26, Bowman committed to reducing salary top-ups for executive policy committee members, the speaker, deputy speaker and deputy mayor by 50 per cent. He also committed to reducing the mayor’s salary (now his own) “by an equal amount to that of members of EPC.”

Bowman also committed to making an electable executive policy committee (rather than how it currently works, with members being appointed by the mayor). He said he will have council elect EPC members.

Finally, within days of the election, he said he would nix severance packages for city politicians leaving office or not seeking re-election.

Bowman's pledges courtesy of CBC Canada.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 8:13 PM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
10. Put an off-leash dog park downtown
I think this is a good idea -- if we really want downtown to be a neighbourhood we need to have amenities that neighbourhoods have.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
9. Reduce the city’s departmental operating costs by 2 per cent
Unrealistic, but if he can do it all the power to him.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
8. Increase small business tax credit to $30,000 and reduce business tax rate
Unrealistic (in combination with his other promises), but if he can do it all the power to him.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
7. Restore 5% in museum funding, establish creative campus in The Exchange
He both wants to save costs and he wants to restore funding like this. I wish him luck.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
6. Open Portage and Main to pedestrians by 2019
I am of the opinion that Portage Avenue and Main Street are a bit of a lost cause and we should focus our efforts at pedestrianization in areas that have a chance of changing. With this promise he had another promise that got less press -- the pedestrian mall in the West Exchange during the Summer. If he gets this done I would be happy.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
5. Open data at city hall (including putting some budgets online)
If he is somehow able to get committee meeting agendas on the DMIS page faster that would be enough for me. As an aside I got an email from the City about the Corydon/Osborne Neighbourhood Plan going to committee on November 12th, they said the plan would be posted the Friday beforehand (5 days). Yay transparency!

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
4. Pump $10M more a year into infrastructure, from Build Winnipeg
Unrealistic. Unintelligent.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
3. Add Wi-Fi to buses and finish all rapid transit routes by 2030
I'm not sure where the money for this would come from, but WiFi would be great. As for finishing rapid transit, I will believe it when I see it.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
2. Limit property tax increases to the rate of inflation
Unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by alittle1 View Post
1. Overhaul city council, including cutting his own salary
Electing committee chairs is a bit out there. I would be happy with what Gord Steeves promised with regards to overhauling the community committee portion. As for a cut in salary, I'm fine with the mayor/council making a decent amount of money. I would rather see a removal of the 40K boost in advertising funding each councillor got last year.

Last edited by steveosnyder; Oct 24, 2014 at 10:27 PM. Reason: Changed due to Simplicity's post
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 9:35 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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^^ Number 4 is very realistic. They won't see any return on it, but another $10MM is easily achievable.
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 10:41 PM
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I know of a piece of land by the Royal Bank Convention center that Center Venture owns that could be turned into a dog park. I don't think its going to be a hotel for a long time.

Money for WIFI on transit could be found if some company wanted to provide the service in exchange for having an opening advertising splash page such as Tim Horton's does when you access their in store WIFI.
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2014, 7:51 PM
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What the hell do you know about what I spend and how I spend it?
Funny...you didn't seem to think that there was anything wrong with criticizing people about their choices when it wasn't you. Then again, they're not real people in your opinion. Just plastic.

Newsflash : Those "plastic" people are paying more in taxes than you are which means that they're paying for YOU and not the other way around. If you don't have the cash to buy a car (and I'm not saying you need one or should even want one) then I'm guessing you don't have the cash to buy anything in the dwellings department either. Or maybe you do...I don't know or care really. What I do know is that when everybody starts insisting on living in a downtown condo or apartment because they understand the issues then you can get on your high horse about how "evil" and "plastic" people who live in the suburbs are. Until then, you're entitled to your opinion just like they're entitled to fling shit at you too.
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2014, 8:28 PM
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Funny...you didn't seem to think that there was anything wrong with criticizing people about their choices when it wasn't you. Then again, they're not real people in your opinion. Just plastic.

Newsflash : Those "plastic" people are paying more in taxes than you are which means that they're paying for YOU and not the other way around. If you don't have the cash to buy a car (and I'm not saying you need one or should even want one) then I'm guessing you don't have the cash to buy anything in the dwellings department either. Or maybe you do...I don't know or care really. What I do know is that when everybody starts insisting on living in a downtown condo or apartment because they understand the issues then you can get on your high horse about how "evil" and "plastic" people who live in the suburbs are. Until then, you're entitled to your opinion just like they're entitled to fling shit at you too.
He doesn't need a car because, in addition to all his living subsidy, all those plastic people are subsidizing his transit rides.

And I'm not even against these things being subsidized, but this idea that he's somehow subsidizing somebody paying $7K in property taxes while he rents? Both completely laughable and totally untrue.
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2014, 10:26 PM
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I feel sorry for Bowman... He's been given a nightmare to clean up with a population that largely doesn't seem to think its possible to fix and are unwilling to accept any changes to fix it.
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2014, 5:05 AM
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wifi on bus's could be totaly done imaign any of the local whisps could set it up
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2014, 7:27 PM
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This is not true. As a renter, you are subsidized by both your landlord and the general public.

Firstly, residential is residential in this city regardless of what the density is; everybody pays taxes at a set mill rate based upon 45% of the assessed value lagging two years. The only difference is that R1 and R2 zoning districts are valued on a comparable value basis whereas multi-family is valued at a certain capitalization rate using the city's own model...

Secondly, property taxes are absolutely not considered in the economic adjustment factor handed down by residential tenancies annually. And that's always been one of the issues. The allowable rent increase annually is derived entirely by the percentage change in the average annual “All-Items” Consumer Price Index (Manitoba only) data, which is published by Statistics Canada.... Renters are subsidized in this province. Anybody suggesting otherwise just simply doesn't understand.
1) Re different rates: I stand corrected. The mill rate is the same for multifamily, condo and single-family. My bad.

2) Re CPI adjustment. Are you 100% sure? I don't think that provincial CPI changes and the annual adjustment have always corresponded perfectly. My impression is that some years it's higher than CPI and some years it's lower. I had always thought the reason for that was that other factors (e.g., tax rates, utility prices) were included in the arithmetic for adjustments.

3) Re subsidy. This is where I disagree with you. There is a huge difference between who writes the cheque to the government (i.e., tax collection) and who actually pays the cost of the tax (i.e., tax incidence). You see this in lots of places: PST on inputs "shows up" in higher consumer prices. Payroll taxes in many cases "show up" in lowered wages. My impression is that the property taxes on the improvements portion of assessed value usually gets shifted or passed onto tenants. I don't know of any economic evidence to suggest that tax incidence rests with landlords (except perhaps on the land value).
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2014, 8:08 PM
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1) Re different rates: I stand corrected. The mill rate is the same for multifamily, condo and single-family. My bad.

2) Re CPI adjustment. Are you 100% sure? I don't think that provincial CPI changes and the annual adjustment have always corresponded perfectly. My impression is that some years it's higher than CPI and some years it's lower. I had always thought the reason for that was that other factors (e.g., tax rates, utility prices) were included in the arithmetic for adjustments.

3) Re subsidy. This is where I disagree with you. There is a huge difference between who writes the cheque to the government (i.e., tax collection) and who actually pays the cost of the tax (i.e., tax incidence). You see this in lots of places: PST on inputs "shows up" in higher consumer prices. Payroll taxes in many cases "show up" in lowered wages. My impression is that the property taxes on the improvements portion of assessed value usually gets shifted or passed onto tenants. I don't know of any economic evidence to suggest that tax incidence rests with landlords (except perhaps on the land value).
With respect to the second point, 2015 sees a new model from the province and their approach to the economic adjustment factor. It's now as I've stated. In the past, it's been a hodgepodge of variables none of which traced anything. In years of evident inflation we'd see factors of just over one. In other years of lesser inflation, we'd see factors greater than two. It was a nightmare to project because nobody could figure out what it was going to be, but it was always below the inflation rate of construction which is what's most relevant.

And regarding the subsidy, we have to look at the rental market in the aggregate to determine whether there's subsidy. The short answer is: largely. The long answer needs to consider a few things. Firstly, individual condo units which are making up more and more of the market are not beholden to rent controls. For this year, neither are rents at $1,435 or higher. And as usual, neither are newly constructed units for the first twenty years. But the aggregate of these units is still small in comparison with the rest, so it's fair to say the majority of units are under rent control. That means that you're given the ability to hike rents only so much. If your costs go up, that's too bad - in 2015 you get a broad rent increase of 2.4%. You are systematically barred from recouping your costs; that's a defacto rental subsidy.

What a landlord can do is apply for a 'rent increase above the guideline'. This is a very determinate set of improvements a landlord can make and each improvement - down to a tube of caulking and bag of screws - is set at a certain recovery rate. And RTB makes that assessment. They can disregard certain improvements, they can tell you some are operating improvements and not capital improvements and not allow you to recoup them. All of this is set up in favour of the tenant and all of it is done after the fact. In a lot of cases you're making improvements you'll never recoup. All of this is subsidy from the landlord to the tenant.

There's also a rental rehabilitation program where RTB tells you how you're going to improve your property. That's a nightmare I won't get into here.

So you'd be right in that the renter ultimately pays for the costs associated with renting if that were allowable. But that's not the case here. Landlords are only allowed to pass costs at a fixed rate that may or may not reflect the true costs of things. Just look at property taxes and water and sewer rates. Rents are going to increase 2.4% next year because of the CPI even though the CPI is largely irrelevant when it comes to maintenance and labour costs. But property taxes are up 3% this year and they'll be up another 3% next year. Water and sewer rates are up almost 8%. Why shouldn't landlords be able to recoup the costs of the items that are included in the rent?
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2014, 8:01 PM
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So you'd be right in that the renter ultimately pays for the costs associated with renting if that were allowable. But that's not the case here. Landlords are only allowed to pass costs at a fixed rate that may or may not reflect the true costs of things... Why shouldn't landlords be able to recoup the costs of the items that are included in the rent?
Agreed that rent controls are a horrible idea. And yes, you're right that incidence probably ends up on landlords in rent-controlled units (each increase in property taxes not adjusted for in rent guidelines increases the rent-control subsidy). Over the long term, rising property taxes that cannot be shifted to tenants will create incentives to sell individual units to resident owners, engage in condo conversions for buildings, etc.

Among non-rent-controlled units (ones that cost more than $1400, ones built in the last two decades, etc.), I still suspect that tax incidence is likely to be borne by tenants rather than landlords.
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