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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 3:20 PM
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Not a chance that Bowman comes out looking better. True North made a proposal that was accepted by CV when, apparently, no one else was interested. If Bowman or anyone else has an issue with CV making the deal, thats not TN's problem. They stepped up and made a pitch for a development that would be very good for the city.

Damn those Chipman's and their investment in this city!
It's a great development, no argument there.

However the optics are bad for Chipman, and rightfully so. Publicly funded projects need to be very transparent. Nothing about Centreventure and it's dealings with Chipman on this project have been transparent. That's the issue. Not whether or not viewing some video makes you a liar.
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 3:28 PM
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Not a chance that Bowman comes out looking better. True North made a proposal that was accepted by CV when, apparently, no one else was interested. If Bowman or anyone else has an issue with CV making the deal, thats not TN's problem. They stepped up and made a pitch for a development that would be very good for the city.

Damn those Chipman's and their investment in this city!
Agree totally. Bowman is turning out to be an unmitigated disaster. He doesn't have the necessary political experience to be mayor of a large city. Mayoral candidates should at least have earned there stripes through being school board trustees and councilors, or have experience at other levels of government before taking a job that is as challenging as mayor. The sad part is, unless he resigns, the city is stuck with him for long time. He's either stupid or he is outright lying about his knowledge of this project. Neither of those is an attractive quality. He hasn't got a clue and he has damaged a major development where one is sorely needed.
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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 3:36 PM
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Agree totally. Bowman is turning out to be an unmitigated disaster. He doesn't have the necessary political experience to be mayor of a large city. Mayoral candidates should at least have earned there stripes through being school board trustees and councilors, or have experience at other levels of government before taking a job that is as challenging as mayor. The sad part is, unless he resigns, the city is stuck with him for long time. He's either stupid or he is outright lying about his knowledge of this project. Neither of those is an attractive quality. He hasn't got a clue and he has damaged a major development where one is sorely needed.
Wow. So the "fancy video" argument did work? The citizens of Winnipeg are going to stop asking questions because Chipman wowed us with a video of a fancy development rendering?

Good grief.

Let's not even get into the fact that this development, even if it goes ahead, will end up looking very different from what has been shown in the render. Curved buildings and tall towers with offset floors? Walls of glass? Really? It looks a lot like a mini City Centre from Vegas - not really within the development realities of Winnipeg.
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 3:40 PM
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Wow. So the "fancy video" argument did work? The citizens of Winnipeg are going to stop asking questions because Chipman wowed us with a video of a fancy development rendering?

Good grief.
Yeah, Chipman holding a metaphorical gun to the glossy development rendering appears to be working.

Quote:
Let's not even get into the fact that this development, even if it goes ahead, will end up looking very different from what has been shown in the render. Curved buildings and tall towers with offset floors? Walls of glass? Really? It looks a lot like a mini City Centre from Vegas - not really within the development realities of Winnipeg.
Good point. Let's not get carried away here... this is a project by the same developer who brought us the Alt Hotel in its stucco-coated glory. Maybe that should be the frame of reference.
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 3:58 PM
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Not a chance that Bowman comes out looking better. True North made a proposal that was accepted by CV when, apparently, no one else was interested. If Bowman or anyone else has an issue with CV making the deal, thats not TN's problem. They stepped up and made a pitch for a development that would be very good for the city.

Damn those Chipman's and their investment in this city!
Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the whole issue was that they didnt guage any interest to see if anyone else was interested.
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 4:00 PM
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Wow. So the "fancy video" argument did work? The citizens of Winnipeg are going to stop asking questions because Chipman wowed us with a video of a fancy development rendering?
Unfortunately, I think most will be distracted by the shiny object. Even the Free Press appears to be on board.
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 5:37 PM
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the whole issue was that they didnt guage any interest to see if anyone else was interested.
My understanding is that SOD was actively searching for a development partner and found none and with no sense they would be able to, they asked to be released from their obligation.

CV had no one interested until True North stepped forward. CV was under no mandate to say "hey, thank you Mark. But now we're going to leverage your interest and see if anyone else will make a better offer". No one was interested except True North. CV signed a contract. Bowman knew this. He lied. end of story.
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 5:46 PM
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Chipman is pretending like his vowing not to sue is somehow his good graces. Chipman won't sue because he knows damn well he can't withstand a discovery phase and can't handle a cross-examination of the inner-workings of every other deal.

Frankly, I'd prefer him to sue. This is a stupid bluff and everybody knows it.
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 6:08 PM
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Chipman is pretending like his vowing not to sue is somehow his good graces. Chipman won't sue because he knows damn well he can't withstand a discovery phase and can't handle a cross-examination of the inner-workings of every other deal.

Frankly, I'd prefer him to sue. This is a stupid bluff and everybody knows it.
And you know this because......oh wait, you dont know shit. Go back to your hole, loser.
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 6:44 PM
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All it takes for mouthbreathers like you to forgive any level of government corruption is to involve the Jets. If only Shindleman had branded his land swap a Jets land swap. Or the new police hq were the Jets Police HQ. This city wouldn't have any problems.
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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 6:46 PM
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All it takes for mouthbreathers like you to forgive any level of government corruption is to involve the Jets. If only Shindleman had branded his land swap a Jets land swap. Or the new police hq were the Jets Police HQ. This city wouldn't have any problems.
Let me translate this post:

"You have an opinion that is different then mine. Im a loser. I wave my tiny dick around on the internet because my real sucks and I would be bitch slapped for talking to people like this in person. If I had even one ball I'd off myself because of what a miserable bitter person I am. Oh and how dare a wealthy businessman be wealthy. Let's take his money and give it to the poor."

PS: Fuck yourself.
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 6:52 PM
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Another sterling example of maturity and intelligence.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 7:02 PM
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My understanding is that SOD was actively searching for a development partner and found none and with no sense they would be able to, they asked to be released from their obligation.

CV had no one interested until True North stepped forward. CV was under no mandate to say "hey, thank you Mark. But now we're going to leverage your interest and see if anyone else will make a better offer". No one was interested except True North. CV signed a contract. Bowman knew this. He lied. end of story.
The issue is much bigger. Stuart Olson Dominion (SOD), according to reports, was given direction to find a mid to high end hotel offering "reward points" to be part of the convention centre development. Their search was not able to find any interested party that fit within the guidelines they had been given.

With privileged information that SOD was looking to be released from that portion of the contract Chipman came forward with his own proposal which may or may not meet the terms SOD was given. The public, and even city council, cannot find out if the True North proposal meets the SOD restrictions as the new deal is cloaked in secrecy by a confidentiality agreement. This second agreement, which could have significantly less limiting requirements, was put in place before a survey could be done if there were any other parties interested in a deal with fewer restrictions.

There is then the side of issue where a public agency (CentreVenture) was used to acquire a business potentially with the intent of giving it to Chipman for his development.
It is possible CV said the buyout was part of a government plan for the area and hinted that expropriation could happen if an agreement was reached. This sale cost was likely lower than if Chipman came calling even without showing his hand on what the plans for the site were.

Then there is the issue of CV governance in itself. CV has an executive director who reports to the board. That board in turn reports to council who created it. To sign a deal without a public proposal process first is a major protocol breech. To then turn around and tell the people you report to (council) that they are not allowed to access information CV has is really losing sight of their mandate. Council could easily call a special meeting and pass a motion that dissolves CV.

As for a video, taken out of a larger context it is not truly indicative of anything. Anyone with some skill and time could make a similar video of a different vision for the land in question. That doesn't mean there is an agreement in place to transfer ownership of the site. Granted someone like True North is not likely to make that video without reason but it isn't impossible.

Overall, I am surprised this has blown up like it has publicly as my perception is these type of disagreements have happened before behind closed doors and out of the media eyes with different parties involved. That things went from relatively friendly in November (how many people get invited to Chipman's office after attending a Jets game?) to this public feud is a little surprising.
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 7:18 PM
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^ I'd say that's a pretty fair take on things. Bowman was acting properly when he asked some very fair questions about how this all came to pass although in hindsight, I'm sure he wishes he toned down the rhetoric a bit because this is turning into a real PR calamity for him. It took years for Katz to take a serious reputational hit (he was adept at dodging bullets); Bowman did it in just a few months. Bowman needs to speak over the media witch hunt and explain that he is motivated by a desire to end the backroom deals of the past regime... as a taxpayer, it's clear to me that my interests in all of this are being represented by Bowman, not Chipman.
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  #95  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 9:11 PM
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the mlcc contract has left allot of people with a sour taste in their mouths that bid on that and this whole mess is the dirt from that comming out and people trying to stir the pot we will see what happens but people should stop speculating on it all for now. lets watch this unfold for now as we do have an entity that has delivered a high quality product to our city that they continue to invest 10 years ago we would been going nuts for this project now its anti wtf?
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  #96  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 9:17 PM
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10 years ago we would been going nuts for this project now its anti wtf?
No one minds the project. I'm sure we'd all be happy to see those buildings get built. The problem is how it came to be. Not every development is a good development.

I would hate for this group to become a bunch of boosters who slobber over renderings without any regard for where the money for it is coming from, who it's going to and the process by which it got there. You know the saying about fools and their money soon being parted...
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  #97  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 11:53 PM
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It's impossible to make a judgement on the development beyond the superficial because none of us know where the money is coming from. We know it isn't coming from Chipman, because as rich as he is, he ain't dump $400 million into hotel and office space downtown rich.

I support Bowman's actions in this case, and I'm no fan of Bowman. Any major spending or dealings with city assets need to be decisions made by council with necessary information provided.
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  #98  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2015, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
The issue is much bigger. Stuart Olson Dominion (SOD), according to reports, was given direction to find a mid to high end hotel offering "reward points" to be part of the convention centre development. Their search was not able to find any interested party that fit within the guidelines they had been given.

With privileged information that SOD was looking to be released from that portion of the contract Chipman came forward with his own proposal which may or may not meet the terms SOD was given. The public, and even city council, cannot find out if the True North proposal meets the SOD restrictions as the new deal is cloaked in secrecy by a confidentiality agreement. This second agreement, which could have significantly less limiting requirements, was put in place before a survey could be done if there were any other parties interested in a deal with fewer restrictions.

There is then the side of issue where a public agency (CentreVenture) was used to acquire a business potentially with the intent of giving it to Chipman for his development.
It is possible CV said the buyout was part of a government plan for the area and hinted that expropriation could happen if an agreement was reached. This sale cost was likely lower than if Chipman came calling even without showing his hand on what the plans for the site were.

Then there is the issue of CV governance in itself. CV has an executive director who reports to the board. That board in turn reports to council who created it. To sign a deal without a public proposal process first is a major protocol breech. To then turn around and tell the people you report to (council) that they are not allowed to access information CV has is really losing sight of their mandate. Council could easily call a special meeting and pass a motion that dissolves CV.

As for a video, taken out of a larger context it is not truly indicative of anything. Anyone with some skill and time could make a similar video of a different vision for the land in question. That doesn't mean there is an agreement in place to transfer ownership of the site. Granted someone like True North is not likely to make that video without reason but it isn't impossible.

Overall, I am surprised this has blown up like it has publicly as my perception is these type of disagreements have happened before behind closed doors and out of the media eyes with different parties involved. That things went from relatively friendly in November (how many people get invited to Chipman's office after attending a Jets game?) to this public feud is a little surprising.
The fact that Chipman brought the other larger development into this conversation around the hotel deal is a transparent attempt to sway public opinion. Why can't the public just hear the details?
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  #99  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2015, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny D Oh View Post
It's impossible to make a judgement on the development beyond the superficial because none of us know where the money is coming from. We know it isn't coming from Chipman, because as rich as he is, he ain't dump $400 million into hotel and office space downtown rich.
His partner sure is. $400MM to him is a dinner at The Keg to us.
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  #100  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2015, 12:23 AM
Danny D Oh Danny D Oh is offline
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His partner sure is. $400MM to him is a dinner at The Keg to us.
Is Thomson involved?
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