The Manitoba Provincial Politics Discussion

[1ajs]

cutting money in schools is not the solution

how about school devisions get costs down on paper and books.....
theres allot of issues at play and sometimes the cost saving is school devisions nessesity to bulk buy materials rather then just the schools all doinf that

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

The next Provincial election will be a gong show. The choices:

1. A upper class tax cheat, who is so thin-skinned, he cannot take criticism without getting lawyers involved.

2. A wealthy First Nations man, who has a criminal history so long, that the average person would ask the inevitable: "Why has this clown never done time?"

3. An irrelevant party that seems to never have it's act together.


pick wisely...

LOL! Ain't democracy great!

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

cutting money in schools is not the solution

how about school devisions get costs down on paper and books.....
theres allot of issues at play and sometimes the cost saving is school devisions nessesity to bulk buy materials rather then just the schools all doinf that

The Manitoba teachers union plan that was rubber stamped and implemented by the union led speNDP party with class sizes now capped at 20 without a shred of proof it would make a difference could be removed to save precious tax dollars!

[1ajs]

aww that would be a bad idea

[Ando]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

The Manitoba teachers union plan that was rubber stamped and implemented by the union led speNDP party with class sizes now capped at 20 without a shred of proof it would make a difference could be removed to save precious tax dollars!

Can you present your findings in more detail? Would love to see your detailed class size analysis.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

The Manitoba teachers union plan that was rubber stamped and implemented by the union led speNDP party with class sizes now capped at 20 without a shred of proof it would make a difference could be removed to save precious tax dollars!

This already was scrapped my the PC's for certain grades. My partner is now teaching 25 students and she's mentioned some that have touched 30. My partner at least has not seen a drop in learning performance but has found it more difficult to keep everyone engaged.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by dmacc

This already was scrapped my the PC's for certain grades. My partner is now teaching 25 students and she's mentioned some that have touched 30. My partner at least has not seen a drop in learning performance but has found it more difficult to keep everyone engaged.

Good news so far... I grew up with 30 kids in classes, seemed to work fine.

It's not easy for the teachers but child engagement is something that has to be taught from the home. I'm getting the impression that a lot of parents just drop their kids off and don't leave them with the habits/manners needed to minimize effects of diluted individual attention.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Good news so far... I grew up with 30 kids in classes, seemed to work fine.

It's not easy for the teachers but child engagement is something that has to be taught from the home. I'm getting the impression that a lot of parents just drop their kids off and don't leave them with the habits/manners needed to minimize effects of diluted individual attention.

Yup, my partner had a parents day on Friday where the kids would show their parents what they learned. There were 75 people in her class room at this time. A couple kids were starting to act out and the parents didn't do anything and looked to her to get them in line. Granted we don't have kids and can't assume to give parenting advice but she feels parents think school will teach these children all the live lessons they require and that they are absolved from teaching their children. Then you wonder why our province is dead last in numeracy and literacy.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Yup, my partner had a parents day on Friday where the kids would show their parents what they learned. There were 75 people in her class room at this time. A couple kids were starting to act out and the parents didn't do anything and looked to her to get them in line. Granted we don't have kids and can't assume to give parenting advice but she feels parents think school will teach these children all the live lessons they require and that they are absolved from teaching their children. Then you wonder why our province is dead last in numeracy and literacy.

While I do think it's a problem in the western world as a whole, it's definitely strong here.

I can't say with certainty, but my assumption is unfortunately political... I feel like 5 years ago, society as whole (and definitely Winnipeg), was embracing the concept of personal responsibility. Identity and class based politics came in HARD, and simplified any problem to a de facto oppressor/victim problem.

I felt like a lot of the less fortunate people in Winnipeg were getting their shit together. Then, right in tune with the rising tide of such politics, a certain MacLean's article by a person from elsewhere called us the most racist city in Canada.

While this article specifically isn't to blame for everything, it divided the subjects of the article to the oppressed and the victims, the poor and the stable, and it also asserts two things:

- the stable/oppressors need to repair this. No idea how, likely through money or some form of guilt
- despite aforementioned money, it reinforces the feeling that "it's always been this way, and always will be this way"

That article basically said "hold on, stop what you're doing, it's not your fault". That statement is probably half true, to be fair. But determining fault does zero for ensuring success.

And attitudes for dealing with various races and classes became more challenging. I'm honestly trying not to be too cynical, but that was a local shift. Never mind that the article was completely inflammatory to all Winnipeggers, as it associated everyone not afflicted as an oppressor.


Obviously this is a long, looping point, but it reinforces the narrative that many unfortunate people believe... that they're stuck.

But you'd be surprised what merely teaching your child to be respectful and attentive in school can do. This is something that can be taught by anyone, to anyone, although it's largely more practiced in the middle class and upowards.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

While I do think it's a problem in the western world as a whole, it's definitely strong here.

I can't say with certainty, but my assumption is unfortunately political... I feel like 5 years ago, society as whole (and definitely Winnipeg), was embracing the concept of personal responsibility. Identity and class based politics came in HARD, and simplified any problem to a de facto oppressor/victim problem.

I felt like a lot of the less fortunate people in Winnipeg were getting their shit together. Then, right in tune with the rising tide of such politics, a certain MacLean's article by a person from elsewhere called us the most racist city in Canada.

While this article specifically isn't to blame for everything, it divided the subjects of the article to the oppressed and the victims, the poor and the stable, and it also asserts two things:

- the stable/oppressors need to repair this. No idea how, likely through money or some form of guilt
- despite aforementioned money, it reinforces the feeling that "it's always been this way, and always will be this way"

That article basically said "hold on, stop what you're doing, it's not your fault". That statement is probably half true, to be fair. But determining fault does zero for ensuring success.

And attitudes for dealing with various races and classes became more challenging. I'm honestly trying not to be too cynical, but that was a local shift. Never mind that the article was completely inflammatory to all Winnipeggers, as it associated everyone not afflicted as an oppressor.


Obviously this is a long, looping point, but it reinforces the narrative that many unfortunate people believe... that they're stuck.

But you'd be surprised what merely teaching your child to be respectful and attentive in school can do. This is something that can be taught by anyone, to anyone, although it's largely more practiced in the middle class and upowards.

Though I agree with much of what you said, I don't think it translates to my point of a lack of parenting. Especially since my partner teaches in Tuxedo. It's not a matter of social class. The wealthy sometimes have a natural disposition to and sense of entitlement and believe others should be responsible. Parents seem to have as a whole become willing to put the responsibility of raising their child on the education system. That is a huge reason for much of the waste in the education system. Parents need to be responsible for ensuring their child is ready to learn and behave in a proper manner, if not accept the idea that their child will be left behind instead of catered to.

[ywgwalk]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Obviously this is a long, looping point, but it reinforces the narrative that many unfortunate people believe... that they're stuck.

But you'd be surprised what merely teaching your child to be respectful and attentive in school can do. This is something that can be taught by anyone, to anyone, although it's largely more practiced in the middle class and upowards.

There's a very large number of people in this city (and everywhere) that were born into or ended up in a situation where it'll take a lot more than hard work or being "respectful and attentive in school" for them or their children to be able to live a "middle class or upwards" life.

[drew]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Though I agree with much of what you said, I don't think it translates to my point of a lack of parenting. Especially since my partner teaches in Tuxedo. It's not a matter of social class. The wealthy sometimes have a natural disposition to and sense of entitlement and believe others should be responsible. Parents seem to have as a whole become willing to put the responsibility of raising their child on the education system. That is a huge reason for much of the waste in the education system. Parents need to be responsible for ensuring their child is ready to learn and behave in a proper manner, if not accept the idea that their child will be left behind instead of catered to.

There are a lot of generalizations in the bolded here, and you will learn when and if you do have kids, that no two kids are alike, and even with your own children, what works with one, probably won't work with the other, and will change constantly as they grow up.

As for teachers being responsible for helping kids to get "ready to learn and behave in a proper manner". I agree, but also consider that once before and after school daycare is taken into account, teachers and daycare providers likely spend more time on a daily basis with your child than you do. Now, consider a single parent or low income household where one or both of the parents are spending long hours working... and you end up where, yes, sometimes the teachers need to fill in some gaps.

WRT elementary school teachers, some of that "training" should be assumed in their professional lives. There is no getting around it. There is going to be good kids and bad kids. Just like there were when we were that age.

[Tacheguy]

.

"I felt like a lot of the less fortunate people in Winnipeg were getting their shit together"

this statement indicates a level of condescension and ignorance that is, frankly, jaw-dropping. maybe if you had been in a smaller class..

[optimusREIM]

^Are we supposed to pretend that all less fortunate people are completely powerless to pull themselves into a better disposition? That's asinine and completely robs people of their agency.

We could just keep telling the less fortunate they are simply the victims of circumstance, but that does little to actually solve the problem and removes the mental need to assume responsibility. Thus placing them on a psychological treadmill which is incredibly difficult to get off of. This concept relates more broadly to what Wolf said and speaks to this oppressor/victim narrative we're being fed these days

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

.

"I felt like a lot of the less fortunate people in Winnipeg were getting their shit together"

this statement indicates a level of condescension and ignorance that is, frankly, jaw-dropping. maybe if you had been in a smaller class..

^ Hitting back for being called out on continually waving the race card.

[ywgwalk]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

We could just keep telling the less fortunate they are simply the victims of circumstance, but that does little to actually solve the problem and removes the mental need to assume responsibility.

So instead we should just say it's up to themselves and let them assume all responsibility for the situation they've been given? Leaving all of us with a less productive Winnipeg in 30 years than we could have otherwise if we were all to take responsibility?

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Though I agree with much of what you said, I don't think it translates to my point of a lack of parenting. Especially since my partner teaches in Tuxedo. It's not a matter of social class. The wealthy sometimes have a natural disposition to and sense of entitlement and believe others should be responsible. Parents seem to have as a whole become willing to put the responsibility of raising their child on the education system. That is a huge reason for much of the waste in the education system. Parents need to be responsible for ensuring their child is ready to learn and behave in a proper manner, if not accept the idea that their child will be left behind instead of catered to.

Maybe that could have been clearer from me.

While I think as a whole, we've developed a generation that is easily distracted and demands gratification immediately, which an iPad can deliver much faster for a 3rd grader than a persistent focus on education and respect, eventually yielding a good career and life path after university is paid off, haha. We've made it harder on parents, but that's no excuse. Many more displace these responsibilities onto schools where, due to taxes and teachers paid, it obviously will just get done (sarcasm).

I grew up not with wealthy, but with poor to - upper/middle class kids. Unfortunately, to no fault of their own, a lot of the poorer kids performed worse in school. That's where the home-based perspective on futility can be damaging. If we look at academic performance across income classes, while our entire society today is more subject to the problem we're discussing, I think the lower income children still struggle more with academics. I think it partially is down to recognition of authority for teachers and recognizing importance rather than futility in education. This may be why teachers generally seek positions in better neighbourhoods, leaving some districts with worse instruction. I don't know how it is in Canada with that, but it is like that in the states somewhat.

I don't deny that the rich don't have asshole kids that disrupt everything, however. there are more factors than merely attention and respect that factor into their sometimes eventual success.

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

.

"I felt like a lot of the less fortunate people in Winnipeg were getting their shit together"

this statement indicates a level of condescension and ignorance that is, frankly, jaw-dropping. maybe if you had been in a smaller class..

The fact that you only found offense in something like that is telling.

I was saying something positive. People who had less, and came from less, whether theirs or someone else's doing, appeared to be organizing and mobilizing their lives with new momentum. Heaven forbid that I noticed

I was giving credit. Ironically, you took that credit away from them.

Originally Posted by ywgwalk

So instead we should just say it's up to themselves and let them assume all responsibility for the situation they've been given? Leaving all of us with a less productive Winnipeg in 30 years than we could have otherwise if we were all to take responsibility?

Yikes, this is not a binary issue. There are a lot of zeros in between dirt poor and rich, and similarly there are difference degrees of responsibility, fault/credit, etc.

It's not everyone's fault that there are poor people, nor are all poor people entirely at fault for their circumstances at all. There are very many people who are in fact crippled by circumstances out of their own control, but very many who made it worse for themselves all on their own.

While things CAN be done to assist people mobilize out of struggle and into sustainable independence and some degree of success, it's just that... assistance. It's never the primary mover.

There is "responsibility" for the circumstances that unfortunate people face, moreso fault. The responsibility, with assistance or without, to change one's circumstances only ever lies with the individual themselves. Not because this is fair, but it's the only way to ensure a change. Assistance can only assist that responsibility. Who is at fault and who can bring upon the biggest change?

Those are different kinds of responsibilities. The latter answer is the individual.

[windypeg]

Our hyper-partisan, us-vs-them politics seems to have trained people on both sides of the spectrum to believe that every single problem they have is the fault of some politician or political group on the other side. It's aggravated by social media and the 24-hour news cycle constantly bombarding us with this stuff day and night. The news wants to rile you up to get clicks and social media is an echo chamber. Just my two cents.

[bomberjet]

^Thus why I hate politics. It's more about fighting, than doing what they're supposed to. Which is looking out for the best interests of the people.

[headhorse]

the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles

politics is about maintaining class interests, it has never been about the best interests of "the people".