Understanding streetcar suburb and urban suburb than suburb

[nec209]

Okay so I'm trying to understand streetcar suburb and urban suburb than classic suburb or urban look and feel.

Not sure if all the cities in US are like this but what I have notice the sun belt cities are very much like this . I think this was very typical of cities in the sun belt cities in the 20's , 30's , 40's and 50's and I think very much so the 40's and 50's before street hierarchy and suburb planning took of in the 60's with alot in roots in green city than urban look and feel .

For some reason cities in Canada did not bulit like this in the 20's , 30's , 40's and 50's ( very much so the east coast in Canada ) and where strong on mix use and transit and garden city movement at that time. I think Edmonton, Winnipeg , Regina and may be some parts of Vancouver are the only cities in Canada that come any where close to the this look in the older parts of those cities.


I think it has to do with 7 main reasons..


- Euclidean zoning of the 20's ( Canada did not have this )
- automobile ownership ( not big many still walked in the 20's , 30's , 40's and 50's)
- sun belt city and very much so the south west very strong on property rights than the city planners and government that tell them want they can and cannot build.
- Planning and putting roads in before they build the homes ,stores and buildings .

-open land so sprawl is not a problem that you going run out of land
-cheap land value.
-May be lobby by the car makers




Here are some pictures I took with google earth


Funny thing is with good bus system and subway it would be very walkable.

Grid system ,plazas, stores and businesses line up on strip and cookie cutter parking.




Same has above but some industrial mix in






Grd system ( mostly homes )










Grid system ,plazas, stores and businesses line up on strip and cookie cutter parking

[TarHeelJ]

Streetcar suburbs were certainly not unique to sunbelt cities...I know that Toronto has some and I believe that most other larger cities did as well. They are simply residential areas that grew outside of the central city because of streetcar lines that connected them to the commercial/retail/business areas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcar_suburb

[BIMBAM]

Yeah, as mentioned it was just as common in Canada. Streetcar suburbs in Toronto were, and are, vibrant as they never actually scrapped their streetcar system so said suburbs continued to benefit from them. A good example is Roncesvalles.

Here's one in Montreal:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Montrea...l,+Quebec&z=16

And Ottawa

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=the+gle...,+Ontario&z=16

[nec209]

I think the only difference of the two types of streetcar suburbs is they are more spread out in the sun belt cities ( like the south west ) and bigger on grid system may be do to open land and flat semi desert in the south west ) .Where in Canada and non sun belt cities in the US that not the case .

I was looking at cities like Los Angeles ,Phoenix ,Las Vegas and Albuquerque.

The pictures I posted are in Albuquerque.

Not sure but I would say these pictures below look more late 40's or 50's before city planners of the 60's started to embrace the suburb look and feel.

These pictures look more urban suburb or streetcar suburb that is less on mix use like Toronto streetcar suburb.Where at the street car line ( on the main street ) is mix use and the local road ( no street car line ) homes or town-house.

Lots of curb cuts and lots of cookie cutter parking with road side feel of small plazas lined up on the street.












I'm just saying I have not seen these types of streetcar suburbs in Canada .


I think Edmonton, Winnipeg , Regina and may be some parts of Vancouver are the only cities in Canada that may look any where close to this look.

The non sun belt cities in the US I'm not sure.I have not seen this look in any of the non sun belt cities in the US I have been to.

[TarHeelJ]

The streetcar suburbs in Atlanta are as close in as they can get...they are adjacent to downtown and are currently known as Atlanta's central city neighborhoods (Inman Park, Virginia-Highland, West End, etc.). I'm sure most other cities' streetcar suburbs are very similar to this, depending on the size of the city at the time of the invention of electric streetcars. I don't profess to know a great deal about these neighborhoods (other than the ones in Atlanta), but it's not rocket science. There is information available, so I don't really understand the point of this thread. Really, read the wikipedia page. It has some good information.

[TarHeelJ]

A Toronto streetcar on Queen Street East in 1923 serving streetcar suburbs such as Leslieville and The Beaches:

[TarHeelJ]

If you're interested in Atlanta's streetcar network from the 19th century, here is a website with interactive maps that might give you something you're looking for: http://www.newsouthassoc.com/tank/

[hudkina]

Considering that the earliest streetcars were built in the 1830's, you could argue that most neighborhoods were at one point or another a "streetcar suburb".

In Detroit's case, the first streetcar system (drawn by horses) began operating in 1863. The earliest streetcar suburbs were developed in the 1870's and 1880's. Neighborhoods such as Woodbridge, Indian Village, Hubbard Farms, etc. were developed during this time. By the 1920's, streetcar suburbs extended upwards of 10 miles from the city center as far as Grosse Pointe (along Jefferson), Ferndale (along Woodward), East Detroit (along Gratiot), Redford (along Grand River), Dearborn (along Michigan Ave), and Lincoln Park (along Fort Street). So essentially, Detroit's streetcar suburbs form a ring around the city that range from about 2 or 3 miles out to around 10 or 12 miles out.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Very interesting topic.

Birmingham, AL used to have the second most extensive streetcar system. Now... there is literally no rail mass transit in the area. Anyways, I think it's a good example of what you're talking about; just look at a satellite image of the inner valley of the metro.

What's interesting to look at is to compare the suburbs that developed with the advent of streetcars. With Birmingham, you had the streetcars, then the area turned into a car dominant culture and the metro went from outskirts being about 10 miles out from downtown, to being about 40 to 50 miles from downtown. Of course, Atlanta is more extreme, the outskirts are now about 70 to 80 miles from downtown. The far reaches of Atlanta's sprawl are pressing up against Auburn, AL these days.

IMO, streetcar culture is pretty ideal for American cultures. You still have the capability of auto independence while also being able to take some rain into downtown. New Orleans is an existing example of this, with the Garden District being served by the St. Charles line while it remains walkable by itself and has individual business districts within. These all make for a very enjoyable and livable area. You still have some area in Deep Southern cities that maintain this, though some are to a lesser extent. Birmingham has Homewood, and Atlanta has places like Buckhead (though that may be a stretch). It's safe to say that many Southern cities would be much more livable and prosperous if we were still able to maintain the walkability/auto independence that streetcars provided.

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by tredici

Birmingham, AL used to have the second most extensive streetcar system.

I know that wasn't the main point of your post, but I have to go out on a limb and argue that. I'm sure there were plenty of major cities with more extensive systems.

[BIMBAM]

You`re right nec209, I hadn't realized how different those streetcar suburbs were from the kind I was familiar with in Canada. Indeed, there aren't any like that in Vancouver, where I currently reside, and I don't even think the prairie ones look like that, at least not in Winnipeg, they've got more mixed use mainstreets like Eastern Canada. Very interesting to see the difference in layout of these two kinds of streetcar suburb, I never realized there was such variation.

[ardecila]

Everybody claims to have the biggest network before they ripped it out... Chicago and Los Angeles both like to make that claim. I don't see much point in comparing sizes, although the claim has more value in LA since, for decades, LA had an image as Autopia and the claim was useful in refuting transit haters. Chicago has always been pretty transit-oriented.

Anyway, since interurban networks connected the streetcar systems of numerous cities and towns, it's really difficult to measure.

Here's a quick test that should apply for most American cities. Look at the map of your city's bus system. Now imagine that every one of those lines (with the exception of freeway-express buses) is a streetcar line.

[animatedmartian]

Originally Posted by hudkina

Considering that the earliest streetcars were built in the 1830's, you could argue that most neighborhoods were at one point or another a "streetcar suburb".

In Detroit's case, the first streetcar system (drawn by horses) began operating in 1863. The earliest streetcar suburbs were developed in the 1870's and 1880's. Neighborhoods such as Woodbridge, Indian Village, Hubbard Farms, etc. were developed during this time. By the 1920's, streetcar suburbs extended upwards of 10 miles from the city center as far as Grosse Pointe (along Jefferson), Ferndale (along Woodward), East Detroit (along Gratiot), Redford (along Grand River), Dearborn (along Michigan Ave), and Lincoln Park (along Fort Street). So essentially, Detroit's streetcar suburbs form a ring around the city that range from about 2 or 3 miles out to around 10 or 12 miles out.

UGH. I had a map that showed Metro Detroit streetcar lines that extended all the way to Flint. I think it was by 1902? I'm not sure, but I was sure I had it bookmarked.

It really showed which roads in the metro region had rail lines and corresponding street lined retail.

[nec209]

Post removed.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

The streetcar suburbs in Atlanta are as close in as they can get...they are adjacent to downtown and are currently known as Atlanta's central city neighborhoods (Inman Park, Virginia-Highland, West End, etc.). I'm sure most other cities' streetcar suburbs are very similar to this, depending on the size of the city at the time of the invention of electric streetcars. I don't profess to know a great deal about these neighborhoods (other than the ones in Atlanta), but it's not rocket science. There is information available, so I don't really understand the point of this thread. Really, read the wikipedia page. It has some good information.

I don't really know those cities .May be the North or North East part of the US streetcar suburbs are more medium density or mix use along the street car line.And the cities alot older.


Well that do the numbers.


Los Angeles population

Los Angeles population 1880 11,183
Los Angeles population 1900 102,479
Los Angeles population 1950 1,970,358
Los Angeles population 1960 2,479,015
Los Angeles population 2010 3,792,621


Phoenix population

Phoenix population 1900 5,544
Phoenix population 1950 106,818
Phoenix population 1960 439,170
Phoenix population 2010 1,445,632



Albuquerque population

Albuquerque population 1900 6,238
Albuquerque population 1950 96,815
Albuquerque population 1960 201,189
Albuquerque population 2010 545,852

Las Vegas population
Las Vegas population 1930 5,165
Las Vegas population 1950 24,624
Las Vegas population 1960 64,405
Las Vegas population 2010 583,756




I looked up the population in wikipedia most of these cities are mid 20 century growth other than Los Angeles that is early 20 century growth. And Las Vegas is more like late 20 century growth.

Most of Las Vegas is not walable or urban looking at all other than the small down town .The older areas in Phoenix or pictures I posted here of Albuquerque in the older area seem to be low density and non mix use .It looks more like sprawl urban suburb than classic urban look or suburb look.

Well Los Angeles look like dense streetcar suburb just very much not into mix use .

Yes Toronto streetcar suburb is very much so a dense streetcar suburb but mix use on the street care line.

[Segun]

LA and Detroit are the kings of streetcar cities in the US. They were nearly identical in population in 1950, though their paths took different courses.

[Mr Downtown]

I am having a lot of trouble understanding your question.

Albuquerque grew almost entirely after World War II, into a valley with no natural barriers, where land was almost free, where gravel roads could suffice for access, where there was a tradition of small ranches reliant on their own well-and-septic utilities, and where there was not a tradition of land-use controls and not a tradition of downtown employment or shopping.

Naturally, it developed differently from 19th century cities like Boston, surrounded by productive farmland, where employment was tightly clustered around a port or water power.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by Mr Downtown

I am having a lot of trouble understanding your question.

Albuquerque grew almost entirely after World War II, into a valley with no natural barriers, where land was almost free, where gravel roads could suffice for access, where there was a tradition of small ranches reliant on their own well-and-septic utilities, and where there was not a tradition of land-use controls and not a tradition of downtown employment or shopping.

Naturally, it developed differently from 19th century cities like Boston, surrounded by productive farmland, where employment was tightly clustered around a port or water power.

Yes but those cities in the sun belt do not look any where like the cities in Canada or the North and North east part of the US I have been to.

Now when you look at the areas built in the 60's to now in the US or Canada for the most part they all look the same suburban street hicharchy.

So when you look at Los Angeles , Phoenix or Albuquerque that built environment looks very alien to me . When you start to go into the areas built in the 60's to now in those sun belt cities well it looks more like what you will see in Canada or ther parts of the US very suburban street hicharchy.

[TarHeelJ]

So you're basically talking about suburbs in Albuquerque, L.A., and Phoenix - not the entire southern and western U.S. - in comparison to Canadian suburbs? Those three American cities are quite different from most cities east of the Mississippi River, no matter which region.

Could you clarify your question/observation? I think there is confusion about the point of this thread.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

So you're basically talking about suburbs in Albuquerque, L.A., and Phoenix - not the entire southern and western U.S. - in comparison to Canadian suburbs? Those three American cities are quite different from most cities east of the Mississippi River, no matter which region.

Could you clarify your question/observation? I think there is confusion about the point of this thread.

Those are the cities I know more about other than some areas in Miami and Fort Lauderdale.

If you are going talk about other cities or do comparison to other cities in Canada or the US than post a picture with google earth .