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  #361  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 7:49 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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What a tool. Oh well, Maybe Oregon and Washington can get some more money.
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  #362  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 8:22 PM
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Can I just reiterate...



I love this city, I love this state, but these people drive me crazy.
I gotta get out of this place.
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  #363  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 8:32 PM
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To be fair, though, this Orlando-Tampa line didn't make much sense.

It would have been cool, but it's highly unlikely it would have generated decent ridership.

Everyone in this part of Florida has cars, and tourists all rent cars. They aren't going to take a train and then transfer modes for a long ride to the beach.

If you're going to spend billions on HSR, I can think of basically hundreds of corridors that make more sense.
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  #364  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 8:51 PM
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Obama really may need florida in 2012. Looks like the GOP's are fine destoying their state economy to keep Obama from getting any credit. The smoldering Red and Blue war continues.......
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  #365  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 9:17 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
From a news write-up on the NBC Orlando website:
LaHood Responds To Scott's Letter

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood released the following statement Wednesday:

"We are extremely disappointed by Governor Rick Scott's decision to walk away from the job creating and economic development benefits of high speed rail in Florida. We worked with the governor to make sure we eliminated all financial risk for the state, instead requiring private businesses competing for the project to assume cost overruns and operating expenses. It is projects like these that will help America out-build our global competitors and lay the foundation needed to win the future. This project could have supported thousands of good-paying jobs for Floridians and helped grow Florida businesses, all while alleviating congestion on Florida's highways. Nevertheless, there is overwhelming demand for high speed rail in other states that are enthusiastic to receive Florida's funding and the economic benefits it can deliver, such as manufacturing and construction jobs, as well as private development along its corridors."
When I read that I got pretty excited about PA maybe getting some of that money (hello Philly to Pgh high-speed!). But then I realized that Rendell is not the Gov anymore and got even more bummed. Bet Cali gets like 90 percent of it.
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  #366  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 10:40 PM
emathias emathias is offline
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It'd be nice if Illinois could at least get some of the funds to do the study of a full-blown 220mph train to St. Louis (or Detroit). Or a West Loop Transportation Center ;-) (I know, not directly related enough to high-speed rail)
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  #367  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 11:05 PM
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Thank you from California. who knew all these republican governors would end up being the best news for California.
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  #368  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 11:09 PM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
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Even though I'm in Florida, I'm kind of glad he's rejecting it. It's not that I think HSR is a waste of money, but because I think Florida is so undeserving of it. Every time there is any transit proposal it is voted down. Give the money to states that have people who actually want it and would use it.

Less than 2 years till I get out of this state.
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  #369  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 11:20 PM
RAlossi RAlossi is offline
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I always saw the rationale behind spreading the money around for these projects, but it needed to have more top-down planning in order to work. Kind of like defense contracts and how they're spread throughout so many congressional districts, meaning there are so many more politicians and small firms and employees alike that are affected by cuts. It's easier for republican governors to reject these funds because there are no small firms that are reliant on continued HSR funding to exist. The jobs and operational infrastructure is all theoretical at this point until something is actually constructed.

The money that was offered for that strategy was never enough, though. The focus should have always been on CAHSR and NEC, at least to start out with. Now CA has some chance of actually securing a good initial segment (they've secured funding commitments for Fresno to Downtown Bakersfield and then some), and that will light a fire under Japan and China's asses to help us get the rest of the funding for developing the urban areas in LA and the Bay Area, as well as the difficult passes near Tehachapi and between Fresno and Gilroy. Those are going to be engineering nightmares.
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  #370  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2011, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAlossi View Post
Now CA has some chance of actually securing a good initial segment (they've secured funding commitments for Fresno to Downtown Bakersfield and then some), and that will light a fire under Japan and China's asses to help us get the rest of the funding for developing the urban areas in LA and the Bay Area, as well as the difficult passes near Tehachapi and between Fresno and Gilroy. Those are going to be engineering nightmares.
Which is where all this inflow of free Federal money should have been spent.
Building HSR near existing freight/commuter railroad corridors is the easy part of the task... I'm afraid CHSR will never bridge the mountain gaps between Bakersfield and Los Angeles, or Fresno and San Jose....
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  #371  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 12:21 AM
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I personally thing Cali needs that HSR a HELL of a lot more than Florida does so I think this Gov is doing everyone a huge favor here. Cali needs it more than anyone, even the NEC IMO as they already have something that is better for the time being until Cali is sorted and they will know better how to do it in the north east after that.

The biggest problem I can see with all of this going to Cali and it becoming the test dummy that everyone will be looking at is that the Florida line had the possibility of show those who are opposed to HSR that it can be done on a budget and with out risk to the states financially. I just have this feeling that the project out in Cali is going to be a MASSIVE project that is going to require insane amounts of money and proponents of HSR will not be able to point to it and say "look it was done in a responsible financial manor here, it can be done the same in your state." At least not to the same degree that the Florida line would have provided the ability to say that. Actually to be quite honest I fear that the Cali line will do quite the opposite. I think it is going to be something that the HSR opponents will later point at as a financial disaster (regardless of any real truth to the benefits of the line or its cost as we all know truth matters much less than huge numbers when it comes to voters).
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  #372  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BevoLJ View Post
I personally thing Cali needs that HSR a HELL of a lot more than Florida does so I think this Gov is doing everyone a huge favor here. Cali needs it more than anyone, even the NEC IMO as they already have something that is better for the time being until Cali is sorted and they will know better how to do it in the north east after that.

The biggest problem I can see with all of this going to Cali and it becoming the test dummy that everyone will be looking at is that the Florida line had the possibility of show those who are opposed to HSR that it can be done on a budget and with out risk to the states financially. I just have this feeling that the project out in Cali is going to be a MASSIVE project that is going to require insane amounts of money and proponents of HSR will not be able to point to it and say "look it was done in a responsible financial manor here, it can be done the same in your state." At least not to the same degree that the Florida line would have provided the ability to say that. Actually to be quite honest I fear that the Cali line will do quite the opposite. I think it is going to be something that the HSR opponents will later point at as a financial disaster (regardless of any real truth to the benefits of the line or its cost as we all know truth matters much less than huge numbers when it comes to voters).
kinda like the boston big dig...

there's hope that the desertxpress (http://www.desertxpress.com/) to las vegas will show how hsr privately funded and 'on a budget' can be done. i think if this gets up and running and connected to cahsr - it will be a model for private lines elsewhere.

even though my state may benefit from this, overall i don't think gov. scott rejecting the funds is good news.
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  #373  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 12:38 AM
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Actually, the mountains might be easier than the areas with commuter rail, since they aren’t full of suburbanites fearing any change to the status quo (this is particularly the case with the Caltrain alignment).

The Orlando Sentinel has several blog items about HSR, and it looks like a lot of Florida’s political establishment (from both parties) is pretty upset with Scott, with one person even calling Scott’s decision constitutionally suspect because it undermines the legislature’s power over appropriations. I’ve also read that Senator Nelson’s trying to get a non-State of Florida solution through, though I don’t think these complaints will get the project restarted. In the northeast, you have a huge Amtrak presence that can be used to get around recalcitrant state governments. Amtrak isn’t that strong in Florida, and its HSR project was specifically supposed to be a public-private partnership anyway.

I would have shared the “better spent elsewhere” sentiment a few months ago, when I thought it was basically largesse-spreading along the lines RAlossi described, but after the likes of Central Japan Railways took an interest in operating it and taking responsibility for cost overruns I started to think it might be viable. It also means that CAHSR is all alone when it comes to greenfield, public-private partnership HSR. With one system like that under its belt, you can be sure the Reason magazine types will be gunning at California. And with the greater complexity of the CAHSR project, I share BevoLJ’s concerns about what this means for future rail investment in this country.
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  #374  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 1:04 AM
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Florida Gov. Rick Scott rejects funding for high-speed rail

Miami Herald
Feb. 16, 2011
Florida Gov. Rick Scott announced Wednesday that he’s rejecting $2.4 billion in federal funding for high-speed rail.

"I’m not comfortable this is a project we should be doing," Scott said at a hastily called news conference in Tallahassee after a phone conversation with U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

Scott said he was not sure high-speed rail would bring taxpayers a return on their investment and he felt money would be better spent on state highway and seaport improvements.
____________

Related Articles:

Obama Administration Proposes $53 Billion for High-Speed Rail
On February 8 Vice President Joe Biden unveiled an Obama administration plan to spend $53 billion over the next six years to develop a high-speed passenger rail system that would link the nation’s larger cities. The proposed spending would be added to the $10.5 billion the administration has already spent on high-speed rail since Obama took office, including $8 billion poured into his 2009 “economic stimulus package.”
Proposed California High-Speed Train Faces Criticism
President Obama has proposed spending $8 billion for a bullet train program, which will serve as only a down payment for the $53 billion over the next six years.

Federal Mass Transit a Big Flop
The New American | 03 November 2010
California, with 10.5 billion of federal help, wants to build an 800-mile high-speed rail system from Anaheim to San Francisco. The overall 13 corridor project could easily cost 200 billion. by Bruce Walker
Amtrak and the Railroads
The New American | 28 May 2010
Amtrak and its lobbyists at the National Association of Railroad Passengers (NARP) recently invited us to commemorate the third annual National Train Day on May 8. Supposedly celebrating “America’s love for trains,” the day could not boast a more ironic host than the railroad nobody rides. Worse, Amtrak’s sponsorship was as shameless as Dracula’s funding a fashion show concentrating on décolletage: The government that owns Amtrak has sabotaged, subsidized, and sucked the life from American railroads since the industry’s inception.
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  #375  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 1:35 AM
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Scott's decision is taking a lot of heat here. The next few days should be interesting.

Quote:
Can high-speed rail backers bypass Gov. Rick Scott?

Florida's congressional delegation, state officials and Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer are pushing back against Gov. Rick Scott's decision Wednesday to reject $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money to build a high-speed train between Orlando and Tampa.

"This is a century-type decision that needs to be vetted," Dyer said. "I don't think it was given a fair hearing."

U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood intends to meet either in person or by phone Friday with Florida elected officials, likely including Democratic U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and Reps. John Mica, R-Winter Park, and Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, to discuss ways of keeping the project alive even as California, New York and Washington state offered to take some of the money.

And some officials were bitterly critical of Scott for pulling the plug even before bids had gone out to build the 84-mile system. Eight consortia of companies from 11 countries had indicated they would be willing to put up some or all of the state's $280 million share of the project, while the bid terms would have required them to absorb cost overruns and any operating losses for 20 years.

In a brief news conference Wednesday — at which he denounced President Barack Obama's budget — Scott went into little detail about his decision, referring only generally to the current and future cost of the train. The state has spent about $27 million in federal money on preliminary engineering and design and was about to issue contracts for an additional $170 million.

"My concern with this is if you look at ridership studies, I don't see any way anyone is going to get a return. And so I'm very concerned about the Florida taxpayers," Scott said.

Scott said it is projected that up to 3.07 million people a year would take the train, which was set to run at speeds up to 168 mph between Orlando International Airport and Tampa.

Officials said the ridership number came from a new study being conducted by two private companies for FDOT. That study has not been released, but Scott has been briefed on it, sources said.

Scott implied that the ridership projection he cited were inflated because Amtrak's Acela fast train between Washington and Boston carried only 3.2 million passengers in 2010, even though far more people live in the Northeast Corridor. However, PolitiFact Florida noted that an additional 7.15 million people rode regional rail lines in the Northeast last year and rated Scott's comparison "half true."

Scott also said Wednesday that he was worried that Florida would be on the hook for $3 billion or more if a business built the train and walked away because it was running a big deficit, an assertion based on a report critical of high-speed rail that was released in January by the Reason Foundation, a libertarian think tank.

Robert Poole, a co-author, had warned that Florida taxpayers could lose billions because many train projects have gone over budget and drawn fewer riders than projected. And Poole said Wednesday that he was skeptical a business would be willing to cover possible construction overruns or operating deficits, meaning the state could have been forced to bear those expenses.

"I think this is a responsible decision," Poole said.

However, a senior aide to LaHood said that concern about long-term deficits had never been voiced by Scott: "We could have negotiated this issue in a final agreement with Florida if they had continued with negotiations. Governor Scott never raised this issue, and the DOT never intended to put the state on the hook for decades to come."

Scott also said he was still reviewing the SunRail commuter-train project linking downtown Orlando with Seminole, Volusia and Osceola counties later this decade, even though money has been set aside in the state budget he proposed last week.

Scott's decision drew applause from tea-party groups who had worked for his election last year and cheered him last week when he introduced his $65.8 billion budget at a rally in Eustis.

"We met with the Governor on HSR this past week and we are even more encouraged today that he has again stood strong against the politics as usual played by the Beltway crowd," said Sharon Calvert, co-founder of the Tampa Tea Party, in a statement.

If the decision holds, it would end yet another attempt to bring high-speed rail to Florida, a quest begun under former Gov. Bob Graham during the 1980s. Several efforts came close, including one scuttled in 2004 by former Gov. Jeb Bush.

Nelson said he talked Wednesday with LaHood about pursuing a plan that would create another Florida entity that could serve as proxy to accept the federal money, rather than the state. This might involve a team of cities such as Orlando, Lakeland and Tampa, maybe even with private partners.

"We can't afford to allow this opportunity to pass us by," Nelson said.

State legislators questioned why the governor would turn down the estimated 23,000 construction jobs the train could create after he campaigned on a "jobs agenda."

Without letting the private sector come to the table, we really don't know how viable it is," said Sen. Thad Altman, R-Viera. "There's no rational reason at all not to allow that to happen — unless you're afraid of what you might hear. We might hear that this thing will work."

Lawmakers appropriated $300 million for the project last year, and Scott cannot constitutionally scuttle that spending without legislative authority, said Senate budget chief J.D. Alexander. Lawmakers first approved the project at a special session in late 2009 that also authorized construction of SunRail.

But Alexander, R-Lake Wales, said lawmakers had mixed feelings about it given the tea-party-fueled outrage over federal spending. An attempt to continue funding would likely meet with a Scott veto, he said, and "I don't believe there'd be the support to override the veto."

But Scott's seeming disregard for the Legislature's appropriating power — whether it's selling a state plane or killing rail projects — alarmed some lawmakers.

Sen. David Simmons, R-Maitland, said he planned to lobby legislators to fight the governor's move and did not think Scott could unilaterally kill the project.

I disagree with what the governor has said, and I do hope this is not an irrevocable situation," Simmons said.

Among the most dismayed was C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the retired Lakeland insurance magnate who has spent 30 years trying to get a high-speed train in Florida.

He congratulated California because he figures LaHood eventually will move much of the money there, just as he previously sent additional funds to Florida after Republican governors in Wisconsin and Ohio pulled out of high-speed endeavors. California wants to build a train that eventually would link Los Angeles with San Francisco.

The aide to LaHood said the money would not be sent elsewhere while Scott's opponents try to figure out a way to save the train.

Dockery, a longtime Republican fundraiser and husband of state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, also questioned whether Scott really understood how high-speed rail was supposed to operate in Florida.

"The governor is saying to these teams that they must be lying when they agree to accept cost overruns and ridership risks," Dockery said.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...7.story?page=2
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  #376  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 2:46 AM
penfold penfold is offline
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Originally Posted by galeforcewinds View Post

Related Articles:

Obama Administration Proposes $53 Billion for High-Speed Rail
On February 8 Vice President Joe Biden unveiled an Obama administration plan to spend $53 billion over the next six years to develop a high-speed passenger rail system that would link the nation’s larger cities. The proposed spending would be added to the $10.5 billion the administration has already spent on high-speed rail since Obama took office, including $8 billion poured into his 2009 “economic stimulus package.”
Proposed California High-Speed Train Faces Criticism
President Obama has proposed spending $8 billion for a bullet train program, which will serve as only a down payment for the $53 billion over the next six years.

Federal Mass Transit a Big Flop
The New American | 03 November 2010
California, with 10.5 billion of federal help, wants to build an 800-mile high-speed rail system from Anaheim to San Francisco. The overall 13 corridor project could easily cost 200 billion. by Bruce Walker
Amtrak and the Railroads
The New American | 28 May 2010
Amtrak and its lobbyists at the National Association of Railroad Passengers (NARP) recently invited us to commemorate the third annual National Train Day on May 8. Supposedly celebrating “America’s love for trains,” the day could not boast a more ironic host than the railroad nobody rides. Worse, Amtrak’s sponsorship was as shameless as Dracula’s funding a fashion show concentrating on décolletage: The government that owns Amtrak has sabotaged, subsidized, and sucked the life from American railroads since the industry’s inception.
These articles are from The New American, which is published by the John Birch Society. For those of us old enough to remember them in their prime, it's a little disconcerting to see this posted here.

Maybe the Klan has a newsletter with some opinions about high speed rail as well.
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  #377  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 3:34 AM
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These articles are from The New American, which is published by the John Birch Society. For those of us old enough to remember them in their prime, it's a little disconcerting to see this posted here.
The John Birch Society was funded by Fred Koch, father of David and Charles Koch of Koch Industries. Koch Industries in turn, funnels its oil money to 'Reason' Foundation. Reason Foundation, of course is absolutely determined to prevent any infrastructure investments that would reduce our consumption of oil.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all
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  #378  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 3:43 AM
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They also used to hand out flyers at my high school about desegregation being a communist plot to indoctrinate "happy negros" into a new black socialist revolution.

Glad to see they've expanded to transport policy.
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  #379  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 3:51 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
What a tool. Oh well, Maybe Oregon and Washington can get some more money.
What party affiliations are you're governors and senaters?

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Originally Posted by brickell View Post
I love this city, I love this state, but these people drive me crazy.
I gotta get out of this place.
Seriously, this is an complete outrage. No words can describe the stupidity of these cronies. He really is proposing to waste more money on highways?

That means, essentially, nothing's changed for this political party. Truly, what a disgrace.

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Originally Posted by northbay View Post
there's hope that the desertxpress (http://www.desertxpress.com/) to las vegas will show how hsr privately funded and 'on a budget' can be done. i think if this gets up and running and connected to cahsr - it will be a model for private lines elsewhere.
Dude, desertxpress is not gonna happen. They stated it was to break ground nearly a year ago. Now i'm hearing it's being pushed back to 2012. Believe me... by the time it breaks ground, the Maglev project will already have obtained it's EIR documents.
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  #380  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 4:44 AM
DJM19 DJM19 is offline
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Originally Posted by northbay View Post
kinda like the boston big dig...

there's hope that the desertxpress (http://www.desertxpress.com/) to las vegas will show how hsr privately funded and 'on a budget' can be done. i think if this gets up and running and connected to cahsr - it will be a model for private lines elsewhere.

even though my state may benefit from this, overall i don't think gov. scott rejecting the funds is good news.
Desert Xpress has a top speed of 150, and I believe it runs on Diesel. Not exactly the model I want to see for all of HSR. Im happy they are doing it just because a train on diesel is still better than all the cars driving through the desert, but I think 220 and electrified is the best deal.
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