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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2014, 5:51 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Here is an aerial of the messy campus.
You say "messy", I say "beautiful".
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  #22  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2014, 6:22 PM
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You say "messy", I say "beautiful".
Completely agree!
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  #23  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2014, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
As a former employee of the hospital (may return?) whose parents have been long-time employees of this campus (mother is on 41 years working as an RN here) and a long-term resident of the area this is wonderful news! The current hospital is outdated and difficult to maneuvre in (hallways are too narrow for patient transport, etc., the layout can be confusing), hallways get freakishly hot from the sun. We really need new facilities, and with good design (go for LEED Platinum) and attractive buildings.

As well, if would be wonderful if they could put the helipad on the roof of the building, as their current method involves an ambulance to drive across the street to the helipad and back again to transport patients, when they could more easily take the patient from the roof into the building's elevator.

I do feel a bit worried about the loss of part of the Farm. The main part has older buildings and the arboretum, but the rest has it's own bucolic charm to it. In fact, one of the things I found amazing was how the farm looked from the 8th floor (we call it the 7th floor). I'm fine with the land west of Fisher being developed, provided it isn't sprawl.

I'd like to see a mega hospital like what Montreal is doing in the downtown. Build larger, taller buildings that are easy to navigate (as an employee, people get so lost trying to find wards due to odd naming and locations). What I would like to see is an emphasis on greenspace for the campus, which I think is unbelievably important for patients and staff members' health and enjoyment. There are a few outdoor spaces on the current campus, and they're dirty concrete (black) enclosed with walls all around and little sunshine.

I don't want to see surface or multi-storey parking lots, that would only mar the landscape of a beautiful, bucolic land. Put parking underground and leave the rest of the space for buildings. I don't want to see it sprawl, as the campus needs to be more compact for easy movement/ transportation of patients and staff around campus. Though I understand why making it spread out with multiple routes of egress, because the current Civic Hospital would take 10 hours to evacuate all the patients (the fire department that works at the hospital says this during their presentations).


CHUM by Shel DeF on Flickr

I would like them to demolish most of the campus, and restore the older buildings to what they used to be like (the main building has an additional floor, external fire escapes, and a "new" wing on the east side). I don't think they can demolish all of it due to some buildings being declared heritage, though their interiors are not original. But the parking garages/lots and new buildings can be demolished and either turned into residences or have something else built on the land. I think I read that they weren't demolishing the current campus, but keeping it for seriously ill patients or something of the like. The front of the old buildings should have their greenspace restored - it was only a few years ago that they tore up the grass for parking lots, so if need is reduced they should making it pleasant-looking again.

Here is what he says in the above article:






Civic by Shel DeF on Flickr

Here is an aerial of the messy campus.


Civic Hospital by Michael Bartlett on Flickr
I'm looking forward to something similar to the CHUM hospital in MTL. Huge, modern, tall, state of the art medical centre. It would be a big change from the boring, mid-sized 70s medical centres like CHEO and the General.

Helipad on the roof of the hospital instead of across the street will definitely help make us look less ridiculous.

I agree, the old buildings, especially the original Civic should be restored to their former glory. It's just sad to see all those crappy additions over and on top of a masterpiece (new stairs in front and added floor, as you mentioned). I might also keep the oldest addition on the east side and tear down everything else on the north-east corner (other than the Heart Institute) and the new emergency.

To comment on the confusing layout of the hospital, I've noticed that institutions built before 1960 have excellent layouts. They had simple shapes ("T", "H", "V"). Hallways with rooms on each side and the nursing station at the intersections. The new buildings are a spaghetti junction of random hallways and different sized clinics and rooms. The Montfort is the best example: the original "T" shaped building is super simple. Spectacular layout! The newer buildings are a complete mess. No apparent rhyme or reason to the layout, bad connections to the other buildings.

I hope they build something based on the old way of doing things, with a simple design. And maybe, just maybe they could plan out all the expansions now so that in 50 years it doesn't look like we randomly tacked on a bunch of newer buildings without any sort of master plan. And yes, I get that as time goes by, our needs and technology (new medical equipment) changes, but we can still have a base for the expansion blueprints.
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  #24  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2014, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I'm looking forward to something similar to the CHUM hospital in MTL. Huge, modern, tall, state of the art medical centre. It would be a big change from the boring, mid-sized 70s medical centres like CHEO and the General.
Maybe it is just me or the picture doesn't do it justice, but that CHUM building is horrendous. It's a massive block and leaves no street presence or setbacks. Anything like this or the RO should not happen for the new Civic. I'm all for modern but this doesn't look pleasing to my eyes.
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2014, 1:25 AM
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The original renderings were way cooler than what they ended up with.


http://www.cannondesign.com/projects...montreal-chum/

Problem with the CHUM is that there's no focal point (other than the church tower). All glass. Certainly not looking for anything identical.

I would like to see something inspired by the old Civic. A red brick "H" shaped building, maybe something of a modern replica of the original, with a huge "T" shaped modern hospital behind it.
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2014, 1:41 AM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The original renderings were way cooler than what they ended up with.


http://www.cannondesign.com/projects...montreal-chum/

Problem with the CHUM is that there's no focal point (other than the church tower). All glass. Certainly not looking for anything identical.

I would like to see something inspired by the old Civic. A red brick "H" shaped building, maybe something of a modern replica of the original, with a huge "T" shaped modern hospital behind it.
A lot of buildings don't conform to the Vancouverist building model, but they're nice buildings. What I showed you previously was Phase 1 of the project completed a few years ago, with the current phase under-construction behind it, which you can see it and the church steeple being reconstructed below. There are several major buildings for this particular hospital, most of which is being used to reclaim land from the Autoroute Ville-Marie.

I'd also like to point out Montreal has two mega-hospitals being built: CHUM and McGill.


CHUM by Shel DeF on Flickr


CHUM by Shel DeF on Flickr
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2014, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
What I showed you previously was Phase 1 of the project completed a few years ago, with the current phase under-construction behind it, which you can see it and the church steeple being reconstructed below. There are several major buildings for this particular hospital, most of which is being used to reclaim land from the Autoroute Ville-Marie.

I'd also like to point out Montreal has two mega-hospitals being built: CHUM and McGill.
Sorry, didn't realize the picture was a building built a few years back. I can see it now.

For reference, the new McGill University Hospital.


http://publications.mcgill.ca/medene...pital-project/
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  #28  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 1:10 AM
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No written communications explaining Civic Hospital deal

David Reevely, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: December 9, 2014, Last Updated: December 9, 2014 1:19 PM EST


When the federal government changed its mind about letting the Ottawa Hospital build a new Civic campus on the Experimental Farm across from the current Civic on Carling Avenue, I filed an access-to-information request to find out what happened.

I asked for any communications on the subject that went into or out of the office of the Minister of Agriculture, beginning in January 2013. How did Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz come to reverse his department’s clear position that building a hospital on the Farm was out of the question? What officials were consulted? What cases were made on either side?

The response: nothing. Not one thing in writing in advance of the decision. Not an email, not a memo, not a request for ministerial approval. Only a few drafts of notices that went to Agriculture Canada workers and some media lines, all of them after the decision had already been taken. Nothing with Ritz’s name on it, nothing that went to anyone more senior than his director of communications.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-hospital-deal
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  #29  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 1:27 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Open. Transparent. Accountable.
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 5:24 PM
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Hospital vs. Farm land. What should be the priority? No brainer.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 2:46 AM
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New hospital would be built on site of 'irreplaceable' soil experiment, say scientist

Elizabeth Payne, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: September 20, 2015 | Last Updated: September 20, 2015 7:45 PM EDT


“Irreplaceable” experiments that contributed to the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 would be lost with the construction of The Ottawa Hospital’s new Civic Campus on part of the Central Experimental Farm, raising alarm among scientists around the world.

“This would be an incredibly unfortunate time to lose such an international treasure,” wrote Pete Smith, professor of soils and global change at Scotland’s University of Aberdeen, in a letter to federal Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz earlier this year. “History would judge this a very short-sighted decision.”

Former federal cabinet minister John Baird and hospital officials made the surprise announcement last fall that 24 hectares of the farm would be transferred to the National Capital Commission and then leased to The Ottawa Hospital for a new Civic location. Although officials noted the land in question makes up just six per cent of the Experimental Farm, opponents say it represents more than 10 per cent of total usable crop research area on the farm and includes fields that have been in continuous use for experimentation since 1886.

The land deal has been approved by cabinet, although a complex transfer deal between Agriculture Canada and the National Capital Commission — which will then lease it to the hospital for a nominal amount — is still being ironed out. An advisory committee to Agriculture Canada and groups including Friends of the Farm say they were not consulted ahead of time and have been told the land transfer is a “done deal.”

There is still no approved funding for a new hospital — with an expected price tag of $2.5 billion or more — and it could be years before it is built.

Clarke Topp, one of the scientists who spent a career working on long-term experiments in the farm’s Field No. 1, the proposed site of the new hospital, is among those raising alarm bells about the plan. Topp argues the deal would mean the end of long-term soil experiments. The internationally recognized scientist, who is now retired, says he cannot watch decades of important scientific study get washed down the drain without speaking out.

Topp said he has heard from current government scientists who back his efforts to draw attention to the loss of the research to make room for a hospital.

“They can’t speak up, but they were pleased that I decided to become the usual s**t disturber that I was in my career. A number called me and thanked me.”

Some of the experiments on Field No. 1, bordered by Carling Avenue in the north, Fisher Avenue in the west, Ash Lane in the east and close to the Scenic Driveway in the south, have been underway for decades. A key one involves studying the effects of low-tilling and no tilling on carbon in soils, something that contributed to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007, making Agriculture Canada scientists among joint recipients of the prize.

Topp, who continued to work on his experiments without pay for several years after retiring, said his work involved measuring the impact of low tilling or no tilling methods on carbon, water and other aspects of the soil as a means of improving its quality, something that is crucial to feed a growing population. Carbon, which is vital to feed plants, is depleted when the soil is repeatedly tilled.

Smith, of the University of Aberdeen, said the land “houses irreplaceable experimental plots which are of international significance, and those will be lost.”

He goes on to write that while he understands “the need for local hospital services, the choice of site is extremely unfortunate” and that the soil experiments “help us to understand carbon dynamics in soils and provide information to inform governmental policies in the context of global carbon balances and environmental change.”

The year 2015, Smith noted, has been designated the International Year of Soils by the United Nations.

Ten months after the announcement about the land transfer, there has been virtually no public information about plans to build the new hospital to replace the aging Civic campus. Public consultations on the design will begin after the land transfer between Agriculture Canada and the NCC is complete, which an NCC spokesperson said will occur after the election.

Still, there is growing concern within the scientific community and elsewhere that construction of the new hospital on that part of the farm will come at too high a price.

In addition to Smith’s letter to the agriculture minister, a number of international scientists also wrote in June to Jamie McCracken, chair of the board of governors of The Ottawa Hospital. The letter calls on the hospital and federal government to look at other options, noting that the Central Experimental Farm is a national historic site and a “significant cultural landscape” that belongs to all Canadians. Groups including Heritage Ottawa, Friends of the Farm, National Trust for Canada and others are opposed to the plan.

David Burton, an agriculture professor from Dalhousie University who is president of the Canadian Society of Soil Science, said the transfer of farm land to the hospital “will result in the loss of scientifically significant agricultural field experiments, which have been conducted on that parcel of land since the late 1880s.

“There are very few places in the world where agricultural experiments have been running so long and the data generated from those experiments have helped make Canadian agriculture profitable and secured the livelihoods of Canadian farmers, while also contributing to international scientific knowledge and practice.”

Topp said Canada has been in the forefront of research on soil in the past and should be now. “I have an international reputation for the research that I did, and we can do that again.”

Kitchissippi Ward Coun. Jeff Lieper said he knows many people who live near the current hospital will be glad to see a new one being built which, among other things, might reduce traffic and parking tensions in the neighbourhood. But he said he has also spoken to people in the community who are concerned about the hospital “taking over some of that scientific soil.”

Mark Kristmanson, chief executive of the NCC, was asked by David Jeanes of Heritage Ottawa about the project at the NCC’s open house in June.

The alternatives to the site for a new hospital “are not fantastic” said Kristmanson.

“When you think of the densification coming in this city, when you think of the growing health needs of this city and you think of the actual condition of the Civic hospital … it’s hard to imagine that it would be preferable to locate this hospital much further out … As much as we are seized with the loss of a portion of this very important heritage cultural landscape and heritage site, the social benefit is hard to argue against.”

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-say-scientist
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 5:52 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
New hospital would be built on site of 'irreplaceable' soil experiment, say scientist

Elizabeth Payne, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: September 20, 2015 | Last Updated: September 20, 2015 7:45 PM EDT


“Irreplaceable” experiments that contributed to the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 would be lost with the construction of The Ottawa Hospital’s new Civic Campus on part of the Central Experimental Farm, raising alarm among scientists around the world.

Some of the experiments on Field No. 1, bordered by Carling Avenue in the north, Fisher Avenue in the west, Ash Lane in the east and close to the Scenic Driveway in the south, have been underway for decades. A key one involves studying the effects of low-tilling and no tilling on carbon in soils, something that contributed to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007, making Agriculture Canada scientists among joint recipients of the prize.


epayne@ottawacitizen.com

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-say-scientist
I don't know there might be a legitimate argument here, but it's hard to take them seriously when they claim these experiments contributed to the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. I mean come on. I suppose everyone who voted for Obama contributed to his Nobel Prize.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 12:07 PM
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I don't know there might be a legitimate argument here, but it's hard to take them seriously when they claim these experiments contributed to the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. I mean come on. I suppose everyone who voted for Obama contributed to his Nobel Prize.
With all due respect to valuable experiments... it's just soil... and it sounds like the research is fairly complete. Could this work not be transfered to somewhere else the 94% of the farm which is not impacted by this?

And the hypocrisy of an "experimental farm" in the middle of a city has always confused me.... I mean forcing people to burn lots of extra hydrocarbons to drive around immense fields which are looking for ways to reduce carbon consumption
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 1:28 PM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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So called experts.

Let the wedge politics begin.

The civic could easily move to the site of westgate shopping centre, or to the east where the carling building was.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 1:48 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Actually, I think that the location of the old Sir John Carling Building is a good idea. It allows better transportation connections; closer to the Trillium Line, providing road access directly from Prince of Wales Drive. It is on a site that has already been built on, so there should be no issue of protecting the land. All-in-all, I think it would be a good location.
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 1:54 PM
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I currently work on The Farm at the research centre (ECORC). I am not a scientist but I work on numerous projects with some of them. The problem isn’t that they don’t want a hospital to go on any of the farmland; it is that 1) no one found out about the hospital announcement until it was announced at the news conference back in November 2014, and 2) they picked the worst field to put it on. Yes, the field makes sense from a public perspective because it is directly across the street from the current site. But that field (Field 1) is the long-term soil experiment plot. Experiments and testing that have been going on for decades and help Canadian farmers develop better methods for farming in Canada. You can’t just ‘move’ long term experiments to another plot of land. It is extremely difficult to find untouched soil anywhere (contamination, drainage, etc). Most people here are upset that they were not consulted and saw it as an election move for the Conservatives. There are other plots of land on the farm that could be used for a hospital, like the location of the now demolished Sir John A Carling Building (which is right beside the O-train station).

Anyways, that’s all I will most likely say on the topic, that most public don’t realize how important that field is for The Farm and international experiments. As said, literally any other field would most likely be okay. I encourage anyone interested to read this small article below about the issue:

Quote:
By Pete Anderson

On May 26th, Heritage Canada The National Trust included an important Ottawa site in its annual list of Canada’s top ten endangered heritage places. Declaring that “the Feds play fast and loose with a national historic site,” the National Trust denounced the proposed severing of 60 acres of the Central Experimental Farm’s Field 1 for a future hospital campus without consultation. The Farm’s placement on the list is a call to arms for everyone who supports Canada’s history and federal scientific research programs.

Last November, John Baird (former MP and minister responsible for the National Capital Commission), Jack Kitts (President of the Ottawa Hospital) and Mark Kristmanson (CEO of the NCC) announced their intention to transfer up to 60 acres of the Farm to the NCC who would then lease the land to the Ottawa Hospital to build a new campus. The announcement took everyone by surprise and it quickly became apparent that they bypassed the Central Experimental Farm Advisory Council, which is responsible for actively soliciting input from the public on the Farm’s future and providing recommendations to assist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada in the ongoing stewardship of the Farm.

Documents obtained through an Access to Information request show that the communications plan developed as part of the negotiations specifically postponed consulting internal and external stakeholders, including the CEF Advisory council and the scientists whose work will be directly affected. Scientists learned about the transfer in an email distributed by senior management in the hours after the November 3rd announcement. Blindsided, at least nineteen wrote to management to protest the transfer but, in the words of one AAFC manager, negotiators from the NCC and the Ottawa Hospital “didn’t care” about the impact to research. Indeed, it was only after Baird’s announcement that senior management in AAFC’s Science and Technology Branch was able to look into the work underway on Field 1 and identify that not all research can be relocated.

While the exact site of the 60 acres has yet to be established, internal documents show that most, if not all, of the land will come from Field 1 at the north-west corner of the Farm near the intersection of Carling and Fisher Avenues. Field 1 is characterized by a high variability of soil types within a small area and showcases the rich geological history of the Ottawa area. This makes Field 1 invaluable for conducting comparative small plot experiments, such as the ongoing tillage work. Other research at Field 1, some of which was showcased as part of Doors Open Ottawa, examines soil biosphere changes caused by nitrogen fixation, whole system costs of different cultural methods, and the influence of climate change on yields. This research has its roots in similar work undertaken on Field 1, then known as the “Lonetree Field,” as far back as 1899.

The threat to the Farm as a heritage site and research station is clear. While some of the research can be relocated to other fields at the Farm, some long-term research projects undertaken to support Canadian farmers will be permanently lost. Further, the site chosen for construction of a mega-hospital on the experimental farm will significantly alter the cultural landscape cited in its heritage designation and its use for recreational purposes, placing its designation as a national historic site of Canada at risk.
The National Trust uses three criteria to determine the inclusion of places on its list: the significance of the site; the urgency of the threat and the possibility of finding a solution; and, evidence of community support for the site’s preservation. As the headquarters of Canada’s experimental farm system, established in 1886, scientists at the Central Experimental Farm oversaw important research that supported the colonization of the Prairies, including the breeding and selection of Marquis wheat in the early 20th century, and the development of agricultural economies across Canada. The Experimental Farm System has been threatened in the past, but even at the height of the Great Depression politicians provided Farm scientists the opportunity to decide how and where to make cuts to their research programs.

Nonetheless, there is hope. The Memorandum of Understanding, which the parties agreed not to share unless compelled by the courts or access to information legislation, between the NCC, AAFC, and the Ottawa Hospital includes a list of twelve conditions that must be met before the land will be released for development. This includes the Ottawa Hospital securing funding from the provincial government to build the new campus and getting the city to change the zoning of the 60 acres. Although the federal government has shown an unwillingness to negotiate with other levels of government once it’s made up its mind, these conditions provide an opportunity to petition local MPs, MPPs, and city councillors to ensure an open and meaningful consultation process is undertaken.

Meaningful consultation must include an exploration of alternate locations for a new hospital, such as the site of the former Sir John Carling Building at the Farm and Lebreton Flats, two federally owned sites well connected to mass transit along the current and future LRT lines. The inclusion of the Farm on the endangered places list is an important reminder that there’s still time to act and protect the Farm’s important ongoing scientific research and its lasting heritage value.
Link to article
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 2:03 PM
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And the hypocrisy of an "experimental farm" in the middle of a city has always confused me.... I mean forcing people to burn lots of extra hydrocarbons to drive around immense fields which are looking for ways to reduce carbon consumption
The Experimental farm existed much before the City surrounded it. So, the city grew around the farm, not a farm sprouting in the city. And you arent forced to drive around it, you choose to. You can bike, walk, run, roller blade or even take a bus and share the emissions with others.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 2:19 PM
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Anyways, that’s all I will most likely say on the topic, that most public don’t realize how important that field is for The Farm and international experiments. As said, literally any other field would most likely be okay. I encourage anyone interested to read this small article below about the issue:
Thanks MountainView.... that makes a lot of sense. Appreciate your response.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 2:30 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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There is a large tract of land below the hill, where the temporary buildings were located for decades. It is right next to the Trillium Line. This seems to be the most sensible relocation of the Civic Hospital and will have no impact on the Central Experimental Farm whatsoever.

I don't favour redeveloping the Experimental Farm. It is big part of this city's history and gives Ottawa a unique character and welcome refuge for Ottawa residents. This talk about wasted hydro carbons may be true but we need to consider quality of life and I believe the CEF adds to our quality of life. By the same argument, they should pave over Central Park in New York City.
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2015, 2:40 PM
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There is a large tract of land below the hill, where the temporary buildings were located for decades. It is right next to the Trillium Line. This seems to be the most sensible relocation of the Civic Hospital and will have no impact on the Central Experimental Farm whatsoever.
This seems to make a whole lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I don't favour redeveloping the Experimental Farm. It is big part of this city's history and gives Ottawa a unique character and welcome refuge for Ottawa residents. This talk about wasted hydro carbons may be true but we need to consider quality of life and I believe the CEF adds to our quality of life. By the same argument, they should pave over Central Park in New York City.
Except that Central Park is full of people and things to do... baseball diamonds, soccer fields, lakes, trails, etc, etc, etc. Other than biking, walking, running, or roller blading through the CEF, there is nothing for the average person to stop and do there.

When my kids were smaller and into Soccer, I had to drive from Westboro to Barrhaven, Orleans, or some other far flung corner of the city a couple of times a week. I kept wondering why they couldn't carve out just a little corner of the CEF and put in a couple of centrally located Soccer Fields... would be a much more practical use of space.

I do get the history and know nothing is going to happen in the short term.. but I do see value in at least having these conversations..
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