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  #81  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2016, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Glad to see the AB NDP openly criticizing the LEAP Manifesto and the federal party for bringing it to Edmonton. There is no surer way to make a party un-electable than to adopt this manifesto. I think Mulcair and gang saw that they failed last election while trying to be more centrist (the balanced budget etc.) and so now they've just said "Screw It!" and swung the pendulum the entire opposite direction.
The BC NDP are kind of in the same boat. John Horgan is against the LEAP Manifesto, yet now the Federal NDP has tied their boat to it. And since there's really no "provincial" or "federal" NDP -- they're all one party -- that means that the BC NDP now backs the LEAP Manifesto. Keith Baldrey's column is a good read on how the BC Liberals are going to use this to hit the BC NDP. Like this story says, all things considered, this wasn't a good day for Horgan.
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  #82  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2016, 11:58 PM
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The NDP hasn't officiailly adopted Leap. They'll just discuss it in the leadup to their policy convention in 2018.

If adopted then yes, it would destroy the NDP in many parts of the country.
Well technically that's the case but the political optics and political/MSM narrative are completely different.

And the fed NDP now officially "supports" the Leap Manifesto as something that "speaks" to party values.

Just read the preamble to the motion at the NDP convention again:

Quote:
"The NDP recognizes and supports the Leap Manifesto as a high-level statement of principles that speaks to the aspirations, history, and values of the party."
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  #83  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 12:09 AM
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The BC NDP are kind of in the same boat. John Horgan is against the LEAP Manifesto, yet now the Federal NDP has tied their boat to it. And since there's really no "provincial" or "federal" NDP -- they're all one party -- that means that the BC NDP now backs the LEAP Manifesto. Keith Baldrey's column is a good read on how the BC Liberals are going to use this to hit the BC NDP. Like this story says, all things considered, this wasn't a good day for Horgan.
Well the BC NDP is infested with hard-core enviro types already who seem to have already hijacked the party and moving in the Leap Manifesto direction. Mike Smyth's column from just yesterday continues ion that theme:

Quote:
LNG and Site C: The B.C. NDP's labour problem

MIKE SMYTH

They are the two biggest megaprojects in B.C. — one in the public sector and one in the private sector.

B.C. Hydro’s Site C dam, under construction on the Peace River near Fort St. John, will generate low-emission power for a century. Its current price tag is $8.8 billion, the largest public-sector infrastructure investment in B.C. history.

The Pacific Northwest LNG project, proposed near Prince Rupert, is pegged at $36 billion including a marine-export terminal, hundreds of kilometres of pipelines and hundreds of natural-gas wells.

Awaiting federal approval, the liquefied-natural-gas megaproject would be the biggest private-sector investment in B.C. history.

These are the projects Premier Christy Clark’s governing Liberals brag and boast about on a daily basis.

To the Liberals’ great delight, the opposition NDP opposes both of them. And Clark mercilessly taunts NDP leader John Horgan about it every chance she gets.

“He’s saying No to growing the economy. He opposes economic development all across British Columbia. That member does not stand up for Yes, does not stand up for jobs and does not stand up for working people.”

An even thornier problem for Horgan is that the province’s big construction unions — traditional allies of the NDP — support the Site C dam and the Pacific Northwest LNG project.

But the NDP’s union allies only hear the “No.”

“It’s not a good thing for the NDP to be saying those kind of things,” said Brian Zdrilic, business manager of the Millwrights Union of B.C. “It’s very disheartening.”

Zdrilic and other top officials from B.C.’s main construction unions were Clark’s guests at the legislature last week, where the government announced the contract to supply the Site C dam’s massive generators and turbines.

Hundreds of millwrights, electricians, plumbers, boilermakers, carpenters and other skilled workers — all of them unionized — are getting Site C jobs.

Union jobs mean union support for the project — and more bitterness toward the NDP.

That has forced many construction-union leaders to side with the Liberals, while wondering if Horgan’s NDP has been taken over by an anti-development environmental wing of the party.
http://vancouversun.com/news/politic...labour-problem
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  #84  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 12:31 AM
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They are going be a fringe party forever if they commit to this nutso LEAP manifesto.

The NDP peaked with Layton. And he'd probably be Prime Minister today if he was alive.
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  #85  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 12:32 AM
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  #86  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 12:37 AM
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I think a reasonable number of Canadians really do believe this LEAPy stuff, so there's nothing wrong with having a party to promote it. It's just not liable to be a very successful party electorally. They've essentially said that they're going after the Greens' 5% of the vote rather than the Grits' 40%.
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  #87  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 12:44 AM
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I think a reasonable number of Canadians really do believe this LEAPy stuff, so there's nothing wrong with having a party to promote it. It's just not liable to be a very successful party electorally. They've essentially said that they're going after the Greens' 5% of the vote rather than the Grits' 40%.
I don't think a reasonable number of Canadians believe in it all. It's great to talk about trying to be environmental leaders but you don't need to shut down an industry that contributes so much to accomplish that.

What if a party was proposing shutting down Ontario's auto industry because it's not environmentally friendly?
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  #88  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 1:31 AM
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What if a party was proposing shutting down Ontario's auto industry because it's not environmentally friendly?
It isn't very environmentally friendly is it........

After all, if we didn't have all those pesky cars, we wouldn't need the oil in the first place!!

I think an expedited closure of the Ontario auto industry should be part of the Leap Manifesto too. (just kidding of course).

If you read the Manifesto carefully, they suggest all these oil patch jobs can be replaced with new jobs in social work, health care and the arts (I'm not kidding here - it actually says that).

Again, the Leap Manifesto will sink the NDP into political irrelevance. Jack Layton must be spinning in his grave. You don't build a meaningful political party based on ideological dogma. You need to have things in your platform that entice people, and then gradually introduce change. The manifesto is the opposite of this.

BTW - Never trust any political document with the word "manifesto" in it. It's not a wise thing to do...........
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  #89  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 1:38 AM
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If you read the Manifesto carefully, they suggest all these oil patch jobs can be replaced with new jobs in social work, health care and the arts (I'm not kidding here - it actually says that).
I suppose it's conceivably possible, but that would be a significant pay cut for a lot of people... However I'm sure those who support the Manifesto will gladly offer themselves up as volunteers

The funny (sad) part about that is that I've actually met a few people over the years (all ultra-urban hipster types) who would give you a blank stare as to why that is a ridiculous idea. It's obviously a very small portion of the population, but I can see how you'd end up in that kind of bubble of naivety if you surround yourself with the right group of people.
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  #90  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 1:40 AM
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Hard to imagine any burly pipe fitter suddenly becoming a personal health aid or social worker.........
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  #91  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 1:44 AM
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Hard to imagine any burly pipe fitter suddenly becoming a personal health aid or social worker.........
Even that seems more likely than a career 180 into fine arts. Although I guess lots of tradespeople are skilled with their hands... Pottery perhaps?
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  #92  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 2:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PoscStudent View Post
I don't think a reasonable number of Canadians believe in it all. It's great to talk about trying to be environmental leaders but you don't need to shut down an industry that contributes so much to accomplish that.

What if a party was proposing shutting down Ontario's auto industry because it's not environmentally friendly?
I said a "reasonable number of Canadians", not a "number of reasonable Canadians".
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  #93  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 2:25 AM
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If you read the Manifesto carefully, they suggest all these oil patch jobs can be replaced with new jobs in social work, health care and the arts (I'm not kidding here - it actually says that).
You must be reading it very carefully indeed..."Demand 7" says "We want training and resources for workers in carbon-intensive jobs, ensuring they are fully able to participate in the clean energy economy." "Demand 12" says "We must expand those sectors that are already low-carbon: caregiving, teaching, social work, the arts and public-interest media." I don't think your summary is accurate.

Listen: this "manifesto" is clearly a mess. None of it really conflicts strongly with positions the NDP has already taken, but it's overly broad and there's guaranteed to be something in there that would antagonise almost any person concerned with the environment (why does an environmental manifesto "call for an end to all trade deals"?). I don't think political parties are of the habit of letting pop culture writers draft policy for them. For the NDP to say that this aligns with their values is a no-brainer: it does. But that doesn't mean any of this is going to be NDP policy. It might, by coincidence.

Those of you who claim to support provincial NDP parties and don't want the federal party to embrace environmentalism lest it hurt your provincial party's chances, don't buy into the main-stream media spin on this one. The pipelines issue is the one that the media has latched onto, but this isn't party policy and that's hardly the most problematic of the "demands" in this "manifesto."
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  #94  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 2:26 AM
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Adopting the Leap Manifesto and ditching Mulcair, at least they're showing coherency in terms of what they want to become.
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  #95  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 3:01 AM
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If you read the Manifesto carefully, they suggest all these oil patch jobs can be replaced with new jobs in social work, health care and the arts (I'm not kidding here - it actually says that).
Ya know what's kinda ironic?

The Leap Manifesto wants to kill high-paying, "private-sector" jobs and the private sector industry thereto. Ya know... the kind that provides enormous gov't revenue that pays for social workers, health care workers, and funding to the arts?

OTOH, they espouse more of these same public sector jobs... with a major reduction in gov't revenues.

Try to square that circle.


PS. BTW, what sort of modern-era political party even uses the word "manifesto"?!
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  #96  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 4:20 AM
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Of the 44 ridings held by the NDP now, which are they "doomed" to lose because of Leap? Hard to think of any really.

It could be a challenge in terms of winning back old seats in resource areas, such as northern Ontario.

The NDP has quite a number of seats in resource-based ridings. These areas tend to be more left-wing for a number of reasons. A big one is that the economy is less stable. Also because these areas often having a different makeup of people who are impacted more closely by government services. Some will say that unionization makes a difference but its actually much less than it used to be.

Areas where the Leap would hurt support would be parts of BC, the Edmonton seat, Northern SK, Northern MB, Northern ON, Northern QC. And it would really hurt the NDP's chances of gaining seats in Atlantic Canada.

My MP is Charlie Angus and he's one of the most left-wing MPs but he would never support Leap.
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  #97  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Ya know what's kinda ironic?

The Leap Manifesto wants to kill high-paying, "private-sector" jobs and the private sector industry thereto. Ya know... the kind that provides enormous gov't revenue that pays for social workers, health care workers, and funding to the arts?

OTOH, they espouse more of these same public sector jobs... with a major reduction in gov't revenues.

Try to square that circle.


PS. BTW, what sort of modern-era political party even uses the word "manifesto"?!
For 99% of people I'm sure that the first thing that comes to mind when they see that word is hardcore, old-style communism.

What is being taught in schools these days that people can be stupid enough to buy into this nonsense?
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  #98  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 9:39 AM
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Even that seems more likely than a career 180 into fine arts. Although I guess lots of tradespeople are skilled with their hands... Pottery perhaps?
The NDP is clearly looking to the future when the information economy is inevitably supplanted by the pottery economy.
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  #99  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 10:22 AM
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For 99% of people I'm sure that the first thing that comes to mind when they see that word is hardcore, old-style communism.

What is being taught in schools these days that people can be stupid enough to buy into this nonsense?
I don't think people today are as scared of socialist terminology as they were during the Red Scare - it doesn't seem as striking, or as ominous.

The People's Party won several elections in Newfoundland and its platform included "leveling the classes" and lots of other socialist terminology. I imagine there was some similar equivalent in Canada or the provinces during the same time period (1908-1919).

Manifesto doesn't bother me at all. It doesn't seem any more ridiculous than "red book", "blue book", etc.
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  #100  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PoscStudent View Post
I don't think a reasonable number of Canadians believe in it all. It's great to talk about trying to be environmental leaders but you don't need to shut down an industry that contributes so much to accomplish that.
It helps growing up in a very urban metropolis where you're never exposed to the resource-energy industry or the people who work in it. I get the vibe many here who live in Ottawa Centre would be LEAPy.
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