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  #61  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
In fairness, things change very quickly on social issues... in 1995, the thought of gay marriage would have existed for the most part on the fringes of society. Even within the NDP and Liberal parties it certainly wasn't mainstream.

A decade later it was legal, two decades later and no one really gives it any thought anymore, it's about as controversial as telecommunications regulations.

So it is possible that bkd and the people on my twitter feed constantly harping on 'settlers' could simply be out in front of public opinion on this issue.
I think one of the reasons why the LGBT movement is one of the most successful enfranchisement movements of our period is because they proceeded incrementally and were always attuned to the social climate of the day.

To simplify things, in the late 1960s and 1970s their main fight was just to decriminalize their existence, arguing (in lockstep with the era) that what people did in the bedroom was nobody else's business. The 1980s was about normalization with society, and the main face that was presented to the world was a gay or lesbian white middle class couple. With that behind them, the LGBT community could focus on marriage equality in the 2000s transgendered rights in the 2010s. It'll take a few more years for the general public to warm over to that, but I think that transgendered people will make meaningful strides in due time.

A good contrast would be the fight for civil rights in the African American community. Within a few years, the movement seemed to go from non-violent protesters being attacked by the police over the issue of voting rights to Angela Davis, supplying guns to hold a judge hostage, and being an unrepentant Communist party member in the year 1969 to boot. This of course vaulted then-governor Ronald Reagan to the national spotlight and, well, we know the rest of the story.

If FN groups do things like trying to erase the name of Sir John A. MacDonald from public buildings and storming out of Truth and Reconciliation meetings, I think their "success" will be very limited and bkd's viewpoint will remain as marginal in 2050 as it is in 2017.
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  #62  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:19 PM
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Sir John A's education policy was a dog's breakfast. I don't mind taking down some of the names from schools. The institutions where he is less problematic can keep his name.

The same goes for Frank Oliver. Oliver and Grandin Elementary Schools here in Edmonton are rather conspicuous.
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  #63  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
... but rather I was using it as an example to point out that a social consensus can turn around pretty quickly.
Yeah, when what's asked is perfectly reasonable and the reasons to refuse it are not, you can expect it to completely turn around in a generation (in a democracy).
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  #64  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:29 PM
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He's a hardwired right-wing ideologue with as idiotic an "understanding" of the issues as the social justice warriors he rails against. And the Ten Commandments are most definitely and unequivocally not an example for "decent living"--they're mostly the ravings of a jealous deity aside from the one or two useful rules that were/are universal in socio-cultural groupings anyway.
Did you actually watch the video and hear what he said (and at liberal Yale to boot)? As for that last part about the Ten Commandments...seriously? You can't get by your prejudices to see that regardless of one's beliefs or non beliefs they're not a bad way to live life?
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  #65  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Laceoflight View Post
Wow. And what about our precious Lord Durham ? Or Amherst ? He was about the worst of them all, especially towards the First Nations.
Or our beloved national hero, James Wolfe, who still has some counties and many streets named after him, and who simply ordered to burn every village and every farm between Québec and Rimouski, executed women and children, starved the population to death during two entire years by burning all the crops and fields and forced the remaining ones to live in the woods ? I suggest the authors of the article to read Wolfe's journal, as well as Goreham's and Monkton's (the mercenaires who executed the dirty work).

Speaking of Moncton... This is probably the most incorrect place name that exists in Canada. For the name it commemorates AND its location.

P.S. As for Wolfe, I do prefer that his name stays so we remember.
You're right, the main names I was expecting to see weren't even on that list...

A little bit of trivia info: did you know at least several mixed (Anglo/Franco) cities at the time (such as Lévis and Sherbrooke) chose on purpose to make their Wolfe and Montcalm streets intersect as a symbolic gesture of peace between the two groups?
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  #66  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:45 PM
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True. It's interesting how we went from being an explicitly racist society to one with strong ideals of equality (which reached its high water mark with the Charter and subsequent jurisprudence), to one where we're now once again seriously engaging with the idea that some groups are, as you say, more "legitimate residents".
Speaking in broad brush strokes, I'm firmly in the middle of this tripartite spectrum. While I can understand the argument that my middle ground is somewhat dependent upon that first part (i.e. it's easy for me to say "why can't we all just get along?" when speaking from a position of comparative historical privilege), and that the aggrieved groups are adopting the new idea as a means of redressing previous injustices, I honestly don't think it's a feasible way forward.

I think it's too divisive. I think there's a way to move toward Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream without running roughshod over previous and existing inequities.
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  #67  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
and that the aggrieved groups are adopting the new idea as a means of redressing previous injustices, I honestly don't think it's a feasible way forward.

I think it's too divisive. I think there's a way to move toward Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream without running roughshod over previous and existing inequities.
Amen, we can't escape the fact that our history consists of "conquered" peoples. How do we address, that although we may have taken land from the natives, the Cree may have taken it from the Blackfoot (not an accurate example) and so on, who gets redressed and where does it end?
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  #68  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:57 PM
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Amen, we can't escape the fact that our history consists of "conquered" peoples. How do we address, that although we may have taken land from the natives, the Cree may have taken it from the Blackfoot (not an accurate example) and so on, who gets redressed and where does it end?
I think in the end the special status and reserve system will be considered historical mistakes. Maybe not in our lifetime, though.

As a thought experiment, could you imagine a Britain in 2017 where the descendents of Celtic Britons would still be living in reserves, while immigrants from Poland, Pakistan or Bangladesh would integrate the mainstream society with its Anglo-Saxon norms and culture as ordinary new citizens? Would you find that situation perfectly normal and reasonable?
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  #69  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I think in the end the special status and reserve system will be considered historical mistakes. Maybe not in our lifetime, though.

As a thought experiment, could you imagine a Britain in 2017 where the descendents of Celtic Britons would still be living in reserves, while immigrants from Poland, Pakistan or Bangladesh would integrate the mainstream society with its Anglo-Saxon norms and culture as ordinary new citizens? Would you find that situation perfectly normal and reasonable?
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  #70  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:00 PM
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As if this thread wasn't divisive enough, I've already mentioned Tommy Douglas but Rousseau just reminded me of MLK. When will people want to take his statues down?

Publicly he is a hero of mine, privately he wasn't so great a guy and what he did taints, for me, some of the good that he did. Same with JFK, that guy was a tomcat the likes of Bill Clinton, does their private morality or lack thereof come into play versus the good public works they did. Hell, even ol' Dief was a tomcat, now that's hilarious.

I guess it just depends on what side of the political spectrum you are on and how much power you wield.
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  #71  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:03 PM
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If you want your point to be clear, you'll have to elaborate a bit, I'm afraid
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  #72  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
As a thought experiment, could you imagine a Britain in 2017 where the descendents of Celtic Britons would still be living in reserves, while immigrants from Poland, Pakistan or Bangladesh would integrate the mainstream society with its Anglo-Saxon norms and culture as ordinary new citizens? Would you find that situation perfectly normal and reasonable?
That's an interesting point but is anybody being forced to live on a reserve and not have the opportunity to better themselves through free education. I've lived next to reserves, Micmac and later Ojibway and attended school with natives, they do have a choice in how to live their lives.
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  #73  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:14 PM
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If you want your point to be clear, you'll have to elaborate a bit, I'm afraid
That's just how I react when someone brings up a freaky analogy that I've never thought of before...
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  #74  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:34 PM
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"It's a slippery slope... first confederate monuments, then George Washington..."
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  #75  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I think one of the reasons why the LGBT movement is one of the most successful enfranchisement movements of our period is because they proceeded incrementally and were always attuned to the social climate of the day.
I can see why that reading might be appealing (esp. in the wider context of this thread), but it doesn't really reflect LGBT history terribly well. The success of the gay rights movement in particular (at least the movement as pursued by those who see/saw marriage as the end goal) is likely owed, in large part, to the fact that there is "one in every family."

In response to this thread in general, I would argue that some uncomfortable compromises will have to be made if we are legitimately interested in pursuing reconciliation (reconciliation, by its nature, is not comfortable). Although I'm not at all convinced that this specific issue should take centre stage as one of those compromises, I believe we ought to remain open to the idea that—just as in post-apartheid South Africa or various other nations after decolonization—some place names should change to better reflect Indigenous history/language (compare Dorchester > René Lévesque, for example, as a domestic precedent).

I haven't once heard this topic come up IRL, and even the usual suspects that I'm connected to through social media (the ones who generally toe the line WRT leftist identity politics) have been mostly silent on this one. I suspect that the media, looking for an "us too" narrative re: Charlottesville, seized upon this and blew it out of proportion. Similarly, I wonder whether those engaged in the backlash are using this relatively frivolous debate to avoid more serious discussions about Indigenous rights and the exigencies of the truth and reconciliation process (i.e., I doubt all of those spouting "they had me til . . ." really, genuinely mean it—although I'm sure many think they do).
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  #76  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
"It's a slippery slope... first confederate monuments, then George Washington..."
Well you have to wonder if the Ontario teachers would have brought up Sir John A without Charlottesville happening first.
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  #77  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:51 PM
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A couple of thoughts:

(1) I hate how terms like "SJW", "Alt-Right", and "Ctrl-Left" have taken on lives of their own.

(2) I don't understand the outrage over this proposal. I mean, I think most of would agree with the straight-forward proposition that, as a society, we should not commemorate every historical figure by naming public institutions, facilities, etc. after them. I doubt many would complain if/when the German government chose to rename the Hitler Civic Library or if/when the Russian government chose to rename the Stalin School of Human Rights.

Now, is this an appropriate case for a government or school board in Canada to take such action? Probably not. But I do not think that it is outrageous for us, as a society, to have these sorts of conversations (personally.) I do not think that this is a case of "political correctness" (a term that has become so unfairly pejorative that I wonder if it has any serious meaning any more) run amok.
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  #78  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
A couple of thoughts:

(1) I hate how terms like "SJW", "Alt-Right", and "Ctrl-Left" have taken on lives of their own.

(2) I don't understand the outrage over this proposal. I mean, I think most of would agree with the straight-forward proposition that, as a society, we should not commemorate every historical figure by naming public institutions, facilities, etc. after them. I doubt many would complain if/when the German government chose to rename the Hitler Civic Library or if/when the Russian government chose to rename the Stalin School of Human Rights.

Now, is this an appropriate case for a government or school board in Canada to take such action? Probably not. But I do not think that it is outrageous for us, as a society, to have these sorts of conversations (personally.) I do not think that this is a case of "political correctness" (a term that has become so unfairly pejorative that I wonder if it has any serious meaning any more) run amok.
You are correct that we as a society should be able to have these conversations (and, I think, we will). However, we live in the age of outrage so I doubt there's anything for it but to ride it out until more dispassionate discussion can be had. Unless, of course, our politicians short circuit the process....
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  #79  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Well you have to wonder if the Ontario teachers would have brought up Sir John A without Charlottesville happening first.
Absolutely not. The year BLM interrupted Toronto Pride, that very year, we banned police from ours later in the summer. Community backlash brought them back the next year, but it was still a copycat response.
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  #80  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 6:59 PM
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That's just how I react when someone brings up a freaky analogy that I've never thought of before...
But it is a very good analogy. Humans have been displacing other humans for millenia.
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