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  #1  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 5:00 PM
Octavian Octavian is offline
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Rocky Mountain Railroad Authority / Colorado intercity rail

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Dec 18, 2008 6:49 am US/Mountain

Rail Authority Releases Proposals For I-70, I-25
Reporting
Stan Bush FRISCO, Colo. (CBS4) ―

The Rocky Mountain Rail Authority released a report Wednesday that suggests stops and routes for high speed trains along the Interstate 25 and 70 corridors in Colorado. The plans for along I-70 are a small step forward to solving the highways infamous traffic congestion.

The I-70 concept would have trains run from Denver International Airport to Grand Junction. The I-25 plan calls for a route from Pueblo north all the way to Fort Collins.

"This is where, at least from a starting point, where we need to have stations, at least based on that market," said Harry Dale, chairman of the railway authority.

The report suggests stops at five places in Summit County within a 10 mile radius. There is even a proposed stop at the Climax Mine.

The current report is based on from where the railway authority envisions passengers would come.

"This is a very objective view of it," said Michael Penny, chairman of the I-70 Coalition. "So they're just looking at grade and speed and where riders would come from. This doesn't include the political realities of what communities want the stop."

Communities would still have to have input as they consider the project's impact on local infrastructure and other issues.

Dale said the soonest a proposal for funding would be on the ballot is 2010. If passed, it would be another 15 years before trains were up and running.
I couldn't find the report, but here is a link to their most recent presentation:

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/doc...ion_-FINAL.pdf

http://rockymountainrail.org/


From the looks of it, they don't have the trains going to DUS.

Last edited by Octavian; Jan 19, 2009 at 11:13 PM.
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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 5:07 PM
Fritzdude Fritzdude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
I couldn't find the report, but here is a link to their November 21 presentation:

http://rockymountainrail.org/documen...e_11_21_08.pdf

http://rockymountainrail.org/
Too bad they didn't start this process 15-20 years ago.

I can't tell you how many times that I turned down a ski opportunity because I didn't want to hassle with traffic and/or road conditions on the way up there.
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  #3  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octavian View Post
I couldn't find the report, but here is a link to their most recent presentation:

http://www.rockymountainrail.org/doc...ion_-FINAL.pdf

http://rockymountainrail.org/


From the looks of it, they don't have the trains going to DUS.
Looks like they would have to do a stub line going to DUS, no thru station.
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  #4  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 6:29 PM
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I'm sure that any kind of maglev is out of the question due to station spacing.

I'm putting my money on intermediate rail (90-120mph) but hoping for high-speed (120-300mph). I'm hoping for the electric rather than the diesel option as well.

Again, this brings up the need for the US-36 commuter corridor, as this will most likely replace it. Depending on what technology is used, the US-36 corridor could be treated like the beginning of this.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2009, 11:12 PM
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Some conclusions from their Existing Conditions Draft Report:

Main problems include different regulations in the US which mean European and Japanese train designs have to be modified. The makers of those trains want big orders before they go to the expense of doing that. The US is a small market for them.

Denver Union Station doesn't appear to have the capacity to accomodate this type of service. There is no approach from the South. Sounds like removing the CML and moving the BNSF and Union Pacific tracks out east would help, but you would need to build rail out east before you can do this.

I-70 CORRIDOR

The I-70 corridor and its secondary corridors represents major engineering challenges in the development for any high speed alignment. However, while the gradients, canyons and Continental Divide of the Rockies present a major challenge, there are also challenges in finding access to downtown Denver from Denver International Airport. As a result, the engineering analyses will face particular difficulties with the following issues:

-Downtown Denver Access
-Access to Blackhawk and Central City
-Clear Creek Canyon
-Vail Pass
-Glenwood Canyon

Between these significant problem areas, development of high speed routes will be relatively straight forward if expensive - particularly in the Rockies. The geological and environmental conditions in the mountains make the development of any route problematic, particularly if a technology is limited to 3 or 4 degree gradients. While Maglev routes will limit speed due to curvature, steel wheel options will be limited by both curvature and gradient. As a result, both Maglev and steel wheel options will need to make use of elevated and tunnel sections to provide a effective, competitive service. This will be very expensive and the key will be to minimize both elevated guideway and tunnel sections for each technology in developing the routes.

For the secondary routes to Steamboat Springs and Aspen, as well as the main corridor beyond Dotsero, working in conjunction with teh existing rail rights-of-way will be critical to providing rail service at reasonable capital costs.

DENVER TO TRINIDAD

-The Existing Rail corridor, the I-25 corridor, and the Eastern Plains all provide good conditions for upgrading track or building a new right of way for the various types of high speed rail.

-The I-25 highway corridor and the eastern plains are generally suitable for the construction of a variety of high speed rail modes,including steel wheel on steel rail and maglev. The existing Joint Line Corridor may be suitable for the construction of steel wheel on steel rails modes. however, amny segments (of hte Joint Line) contain limited right-of-way and abrupt curvature resulting in slow speeds.

-Issues for the I-25 South corridor include access to downtown Denver, limited right-of-way through Castle Rock, Palmer Lake, and Colorado Springs; and slow moving, frequent coal trains on the Joint Line.

DENVER TO CHEYENNE

The Denver to Cheyenne section has the following conditions that must be considered in the feasibility analysis:

-The BNSF route from Denver to Boulder and Longmont included a number of abrupt curves, which will serve to limit the speed of passenger service.

-The Greeley route is very straight and wide offering very good geometry for high speed rail operations.

-I-25 offers a wide right of way just as it does south of Denver, although new construction will be required at grade separated structures.

-The Eastern Plains are relatively flat and are only impacted by local water ways and roads.

-Access to downtown Denver

-Limited right of way through Boulder, Longmont, and Loveland

-Planned commuter rail service on the BNSF line

-BNSF street running alignment in Ft Collins
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  #6  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 12:56 AM
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To put it all in the nutshell; we got a lot of shit to do.

I am most interested (and always have been) in how a high speed rail was going to work going to Vail from Denver. The report already points out the obvious for high speed rail; there is a need for relatively flat tracks, without much volatility in elevation and grades. The Swiss have been mastering this for decades, but obviously they started much earlier than we. Yet they continue to build 20, 30, 40 mile tunnels through the Alps. How to THEY pay for such a project? Obviously building such a tunnel costs in the billions. No doubt a high speed Rocky Mountain line would have several tunnels over 5 miles.

I like the Front Range outlook for high speed rail. With any luck, we could get a Cheyenne-Trinidad line up in the next 20 years. I would love to see new freight lines built away from the CBD (out between E-470 and Peña somewhere, perhaps) so that passenger trains could better utilitze the rails in the urban corridors. I would love it even more if the Santa Fe corridor would go almost completely to passenger train use, but that will never happen.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 1:18 AM
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I found their view that Denver Union Station is not futureproofed to be interesting.

Another interesting bit:

"The Colorado market for intercity travel is very heavily focused in the I-25 and I-70 corridors, with significant numbers of trips now being made by private automobile, air, Amtrak, and intercity bus. The volume of travel in the corridors outside the urban area is very high with AADTs of 30,000 - 60,000 range in the intercity sections of I-25, and in the 20,000 - 40,000 range along I-70. These volumes are reflective of what might be expected in a "typical" high speed rail corridor in Ohio or the Midwest and suggest that despite its low population, the I-70 corridor under "normal" conditions (i.e., no mountains) would support a high speed rail project, as would the I-25 corridor."
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  #8  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 4:50 PM
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Actually, Union Station's plan includes sufficient space between the Light Rail platforms and the CML, for a future through intercity line. Furthermore, the Main Train Terminal includes an extra platform for future use. In addition to this, there is an option on the drawing board for a possible elevated loop from the main Train room going north, bending west and on around south where it lowers to grade and would connect up in that space between the Light Rail platforms and the CML for future intercity service to the south.

Obviously, relocating the majority or all of the freight rail operation to new lines out east of the metro areas of the front Range, would drastically increase options and capacity for intercity passenger rail operations.

Of course, there are also options available for through intercity passenger service into and out of Union Station in the form of elevated or subway service. In fact, the Bus Terminal and passenger walkway down it's middle will provide an ideal connection medium for access downward to a deep tunnel bore station below it.

So I see many, many options available with the existing Union Station plan for through intercity service. Really the issue is more about funding, than anything else. It is the realization that the city of Denver and State of Colorado have never built a transportation project on this scale. It is important to note that by the time this is built, Colorado's population will be over 7 million people, perhaps even approaching 8 million. With a completed FasTracks in place, traveling to Denver from around the state via rail will be far more viable, as travelers will be able to then use the FasTracks system to get closer to their final destinations (beyond downtown, such as the airport and any number of suburban destinations as well). Also, the immense greater metropolitan population of Denver will be able to use the FasTracks system to get to Union Station to transfer to intercity high speed rail to go to any number if it's statewide destinations.

In short, I believe the viability of a statewide, intercity high speed rail system is dependent on a completed FasTracks. With FasTracks in place, projected intercity ridership should show significant increases. Of course, by this time, population growth will also have increased enough for additional projected ridership increases. This additional population and greater tax-base, will make funding of such a project, more feasible.

In conclusion, I recommend this intercity, high-speed rail project be broken up into three phases. Phase one should not be scheduled for completion before the year 2018, but should not be delayed any later than 2020. Phase two should not be scheduled for completion until after 2022 and should not be postponed any later than 2025. Phase three should not be scheduled for completion prior to 2025; it should not be postponed any later than the year 2030.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 5:37 PM
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It's obvious then that the Denver-Cheyenne route should have priority. It's the most feasible, the cheapest, connects the most population centers (read: cities), and beginning it now could re-assess the need to build a NW commuter line to Boulder and Longmont. This could be scrapped and the funding to this line could be used to fund the high-speed line instead. I would kill the BRT plan, but it's not going to happen.
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Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 5:54 PM
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Exactly Dirt, go ahead with the US-36 BRT, to keep the promise of high frequency mass transit to Boulder and Longmont. yeah, extend the service to Longmont. Perhaps it will be upgraded to Light Rail one day. Perhaps not, it just depends on if it was ever deemed necessary and feasible.

Cancel the conventional speed commuter rail to Boulder and Longmont. It will help put FasTracks budget in check. BUT, require that RTD allocate the original funding amount for the rail line (not the new inflated estimate, but the original estimate) to a new State fund for building this first high speed rail corridor.

Why not consider this option? It makes so much since; since economically, since functionally (higher speeds) and since in the fact that it won't make since for the Northwest corridor to have three modes of mass transit (BRT, DMU and high speed rail)!
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Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 6:03 PM
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I think you meant "sense". If you live and work along 36 then the BRT is what you want. If you live in Longmont or Boulder, but work in downtown Denver, then a commuter rail line (30-45 minutes; 6-8 stops) just doesn't make as much sense as a high-speed line (20-30 minutes; 3-4 stops).
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Old Posted Jan 20, 2009, 6:31 PM
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yeah, I meant "sense." I always mix those up, because I think of "sense" as in smelling, seeing, tough, etc. Thanks for clarifying.

I totally agree with you Dirt, the proposed Commuter Rail line simply isn't efficient. It is too curvy and too slow. The BRT is a much more efficient form of mass transit than the proposed DMU. Also the high speed rail is much more efficient than the proposed DMU. All three modes in one corridor makes little sense.
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Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 1:57 AM
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I posted this in the Denver Light Rail thread but it really belongs here.

5/22 Rocky Mountain Rail Authority Slides.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 2:15 AM
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Option 1 would obviously be the best option for Union Station and downtown Denver, but it seems like Option 2 would make the most financial sense.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 2:41 AM
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
Option 1 would obviously be the best option for Union Station and downtown Denver, but it seems like Option 2 would make the most financial sense.
What makes the most financial sense is to use the slower speed Acela type train. You can still use the ICE technology with multiple drive bogies on multiple passenger cars. Once you settle upon the 150 mph max speed FRA compliant trains, you can use the existing freight RR corridors to get to all the cities downtown areas. Using existing corridors in urban areas will save $Billions on the total costs.

Also, do you really expect the Federal government to ante up 80% of the total capital costs? FTA New Starts (like for FastTracks) only antes up approximately 50%. Why do they think the FRA (which doesn't have a New Starts program in existence) will ante up 80%?
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Old Posted Jun 12, 2009, 2:59 AM
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It's not clear what's cheaper. They need to determine whether using C-470 or E-470 and avoiding freight ROW completely is cheaper than building a freight railroad bypass on the eastern plains.

After the difficulties RTD had with the freight railroads and Fastracks, there are some who would like to avoid involving the freight railroads (and the FRA regulations) altogether.
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Old Posted Jun 14, 2009, 3:47 AM
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Old Posted Jul 10, 2009, 2:33 AM
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Colo., Texas, N.M. seek high-speed passenger train

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Colorado is joining with Texas and New Mexico to get federal backing for a possible high-speed passenger rail corridor between El Paso and Denver, running through New Mexico.
Wyoming rail study hangs on Colorado decisions


Quote:
CHEYENNE, Wyo. — Wyoming transportation officials are waiting for Colorado to determine what kind of trains it intends to run on its planned high-speed rail lines before Wyoming can finish a feasibility study about the prospect of extending the rail service north to Cheyenne.
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Old Posted Jul 10, 2009, 4:34 AM
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[QUOTE=Octavian;4350271]Colo., Texas, N.M. seek high-speed passenger train

That high speed rail line from the Colorado-New Mexico state line south to Belen
is owned by New Mexico, and they're running Railrunner commuter trains (79 mph) on the line between Santa Fe and Belen.
I don't see New Mexico wishing to use or buy another right-of-way when they already have one 200 miles long in hand. Therefore, FRA compliant Jet Train powered Acela style trains, up to 150 mph, is the fastest New Mexico will accept. Another possibility is the Talgo built 120 mph diesel trains.

Per Yahoo Maps, here's the distances between various cities.
El Paso to Albuquerque > 367 miles
Albuquerque to Colorado Springs > 379 miles
Colorado Springs to Denver > 70 miles
Denver to Cheyenne > 102 miles
Total distance = 815 miles ; Driving Time by car = 11 hours and 29 minutes.
Let's put some likely maximum train speeds up:
80 mph (FRA Class 4) > 10 hours and 9 minutes.
90 mph (FRA Class 5) > 9 hours and 3 minutes.
110 mph (FRA Class 6) > 7 hours and 25 minutes.
120 mph (FRA Class 7) > 6 hours and 48 minutes.
150 mph (FRA Class 8) > 5 hours and 26 minutes.

I doubt 200+ mph non FRA compliant trains would be acceptable on this entire route. It'll be stupid to force passengers to transfer to and from faster non FRA compliant trains somewhere in Colorado.

How fast is fast enough? Keep in mind, maximum speeds aren't average speeds. The trains will take somewhat longer to get you there when you consider station stops, slower sections of tracks, and waiting for clear tracks ahead at passing sidings along the way.
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Old Posted Jul 10, 2009, 8:18 AM
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Is it not possible for a slower train from New Mexico (~120 MPH train), to share tracks with faster trains north of Pueblo? it seems with adequate passing lanes, the slower trains could pull aside and allow faster trains to pass by. I think the 220-MPH Ice tilting style trains are best from Pueblo to Fort Collins. Especially if slower 120 MPH trains from Cheyenne and New Mexico could still use those tracks for non-transfer trips.
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Last edited by SnyderBock; Jul 10, 2009 at 9:30 PM.
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