[Halifax] Waterfront Arts District | ? m | ? fl | On hold

[Aegon123]

Update: the Amos building is being lifted off the site and is being moved over to the adjacent parking lot. Construction is due to start this spring so I hope it is starting very soon.

[Aegon123]

The Amos building and all other smaller units have been moved off the lot with the exception of the Harbour Hopper unit (which is completely empty). I noticed that a portion of the bench and tree space (with the dolphin monument) in the Salt Yard was demolished last week. I am guessing they are moving that unit there to completely clear the Arts lot. Construction is supposed to begin this spring, so hopefully there will be action soon after that.

[Keith P.]

Breaking news: the new Art Gallery project is placed on indefinite hold:

https://globalnews.ca/news/9019168/a...ery-ns-on-hold

[MonctonRad]

This is a little disappointing. Waiting a few years will only allow the costs of this construction project to spiral even further upwards.

I think they have a winning location and a winning design. I think they should just go for it.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is a little disappointing. Waiting a few years will only allow the costs of this construction project to spiral even further upwards.

I think they have a winning location and a winning design. I think they should just go for it.

Exactly. This isn't going to get any cheaper. And given that the government didn't release the "independent report" this is based on, there's no way for opposition or the public to check it or reach their own conclusions. The PCs just decided they won't want to do this. Genuinely disappointing.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Exactly. This isn't going to get any cheaper. And given that the government didn't release the "independent report" this is based on, there's no way for opposition or the public to check it or reach their own conclusions. The PCs just decided they won't want to do this. Genuinely disappointing.

It's true that while these sound like arguments, they are generic points that can justify any decision. If the economy is heated up, costs are rising. If the economy is in the dumps, budgets are squeezed.

Incidentally there wasn't much pressure on provincial budgets during covid, including NS. The federal government absorbed most of that cost. RBC is projecting the NS debt to GDP will be lower in 2022 than it was in 2019: http://www.rbc.com/economics/economi...rov_fiscal.pdf. I think NS demographics and economics are generally staying the same or improving over time not worsening. If NS is in bad shape then provincially funded art galleries in 80% of Canada should be cancelled I guess.

As far as the project itself I don't have strong feelings about it but I wonder about a couple of points. One is if this Salter lot will become the "art gallery site" for an indeterminate period of time and sit empty, and the other is what would happen with the old gallery buildings/space if it moved out. NS has an awful track record of maintaining old historical buildings once the tenants move out. The municipality still seems to have no plan for the old library. How long has it been empty?

Looking at the chosen winner it's also interesting but I can't say I am super excited about the architecture. It does not seem to related to its architectural neighbours and setting very well and is clearly meant to evoke a rural/natural/indigenous theme that was very popular when it was chosen but may not age well. I wonder if they'd have gotten a better building if they'd done a local competition without global architect partners.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I'm disappointed too, though my disappointment is tempered by the design of the building. It wasn't the correct choice IMO and I can't help but think many folks were sucked-in by the flashy presentation with all of its unrealistic site accoutrements. And I agree whole heartedly with Someone123 that the design is not likely to age well. Also, I'd like Houston to provide a few examples of projects that became cheaper over time.

[Keith P.]

The problem isn't that the project got more expensive - $25 million is pocket change for a govt. The problem is that it was far too grand, in the wrong location, and had a pandering design. It was less an art gallery than a symbol of penance. Add to that the involvement of DevelopNS in it all, clearly an organization that is now badly out of favor with the new govt, and it is understandable. If there is still general agreement that NS needs a new AGNS facility, perhaps another piece of provincial land can be found that is not within a few feet of the Atlantic Ocean.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

As far as the project itself I don't have strong feelings about it but I wonder about a couple of points. One is if this Salter lot will become the "art gallery site" for an indeterminate period of time and sit empty, and the other is what would happen with the old gallery buildings/space if it moved out. NS has an awful track record of maintaining old historical buildings once the tenants move out. The municipality still seems to have no plan for the old library. How long has it been empty?

This is a concern of mine as well. These are two of our best old-stock buildings downtown. It would be a shame if the Provincial govt let them sit and deteriorate for years, only to eventually allow them to be the facades of some future project, like the Dennis and Acadian Recorder.

Originally Posted by someone123

Looking at the chosen winner it's also interesting but I can't say I am super excited about the architecture. It does not seem to related to its architectural neighbours and setting very well and is clearly meant to evoke a rural/natural/indigenous theme that was very popular when it was chosen but may not age well. I wonder if they'd have gotten a better building if they'd done a local competition without global architect partners.

Good points. I have to agree, especially with it not aging well. Maybe "on hold" means it will get a reboot, but unfortunately if it does happen it will likely only be to bring about a cheaper version. One also has to wonder how long the fed's commitment of $30 million towards the project will remain on the table.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

This is a concern of mine as well. These are two of our best old-stock buildings downtown. It would be a shame if the Provincial govt let them sit and deteriorate for years, only to eventually allow them to be the facades of some future project, like the Dennis and Acadian Recorder.

I agree that there's some concern over this, but I can't really see the government letting them--especially 1723 Hollis--fall into a state of very bad repair. It's a provincially designated heritage building, unlike the Dennis, and a true landmark downtown. My concern would be more that they'd just be put to some boring use like government offices.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Good points. I have to agree, especially with it not aging well. Maybe "on hold" means it will get a reboot, but unfortunately if it does happen it will likely only be to bring about a cheaper version. One also has to wonder how long the fed's commitment of $30 million towards the project will remain on the table.

Honestly, I think the design is fantastic. I recall in 2020 when the Globe's architecture critic lauded the design contest as having produced proposals that would be (any of them) among the most imaginative public buildings in Canada in a generation.

I think there's a real risk we lose that now, and end up with either A: nothing, or B: Some bargain version that contributes little to the city's architectural legacy.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think there's a real risk we lose that now, and end up with either A: nothing, or B: Some bargain version that contributes little to the city's architectural legacy.

I think a big argument for it is that the province is only one source of funding while many other sources (adding up to most of the total funding?) seem to be committed or on their way. So they are pulling the plug on perhaps $X of funding and killing a project worth $2X (from which they'd probably collect $0.2X in revenues).

My impression is that NS and HRM have often made poor decisions of this type in the past, first proposing projects then getting cold feet, and often ends up with modest levels of federal funding and lower levels of economic growth as a result.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think a big argument for it is that the province is only one source of funding while many other sources (adding up to most of the total funding?) seem to be committed or on their way. So they are pulling the plug on perhaps $X of funding and killing a project worth $2X (from which they'd probably collect $0.2X in revenues).

My impression is that NS and HRM have often made poor decisions of this type in the past, first proposing projects then getting cold feet, and often ends up with modest levels of federal funding and lower levels of economic growth as a result.

It's especially frustrating since the city almost did this a few months ago, threatening to pull $4 million of its own funding, but then backtracked and decided to put forward the full amount it committed originally.

I don't know, maybe a philanthropic campaign to raise the funding shortfall would be a good idea.

[someone123]

I think you could also say that NS has somewhat bad/mediocre infrastructure of this type, with Halifax being particularly bad (regional capital pushing 500k with little to no discernible regional level cultural or entertainment facilities apart from the aging and somewhat small arena), and it reduces the economic and tourism potential of the region a lot. For the art gallery there are some major collections they're not even displaying, that could maybe be the basis of a pretty famous gallery.

There is a similar argument with the stadium. I'm not a big stadium proponent but a lot of visitors to Halifax are just, well, sort of confused that it has the stadium setup that you'd expect in a place like Truro. A lot of politicians worry quixotically about overbuilding and white elephants when the city has underbuilt.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The problem isn't that the project got more expensive - $25 million is pocket change for a govt. The problem is that it was far too grand, in the wrong location, and had a pandering design. It was less an art gallery than a symbol of penance. Add to that the involvement of DevelopNS in it all, clearly an organization that is now badly out of favor with the new govt, and it is understandable. If there is still general agreement that NS needs a new AGNS facility, perhaps another piece of provincial land can be found that is not within a few feet of the Atlantic Ocean.

What's wrong with Develop Nova Scotia? They have done a great job!

[Empire]

With unprecedented growth in HRM one would think that investment in cultural and sporting facilities would be a logical choice. Halifax has almost no notable cultural or sporting facilities and if the goal is to grow the population of HRM, this type of investment is essential. One could argue that Scotiabank Centre, the Sportsplex, BMO Center, all weather fields, The Central Public Library and Convention Centre were too costly and the funds would be better allocated to hospitals and road construction. Where would we be without them?

A stadium, Arts Centre/entertainment complex, Art Gallery, Aquarium, and advanced Science Centre are all lacking and with decisions like cancelling of the Art Gallery the timeline for all of the lacking infrastructure becomes highly uncertain.

Spending on cultural and sporting facilities is a risk for a government in this province which is very, very, unfortunate.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

Spending on cultural and sporting facilities is a risk for a government in this province which is very, very, unfortunate.

I think there is some learned helplessness on the part of HRM as well although their fiscal capacity is far below the province and they have to be careful about what to invest in. There appears to be a combination of low ambition and lack of priority.

Mosaic Stadium in Regina involved $200M in financing borrowed by the municipality. I'm not sure if that was a good or bad decision for Regina but a comparable plan for HRM would involve borrowing about $500M today. It is hard to imagine HRM leading with $100M of funding on a project. Instead they timidly pursue 50 projects at the same time, shelve them if others don't come through with funding, fight to save money, and likely put a lot of effort and money into planning that becomes obsolete over time. SGR and Cogswell are some good illustrations of this. Cogswell has been presented as a kind of engineering and accounting cost recovery project in a lot of ways.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

This is a concern of mine as well. These are two of our best old-stock buildings downtown. It would be a shame if the Provincial govt let them sit and deteriorate for years, only to eventually allow them to be the facades of some future project, like the Dennis and Acadian Recorder.

If you are referring to the Provincial Building as one of those, clearly you have never been inside. Even with expensive renovations almost 3 decades ago it remains pretty awful as a place to work. The only parts of the Art Gallery I remember being in were those at ground level of the Provincial Building and the part under the plaza. I have no idea what's upstairs in the main AGNS building - but I assume workspace, not gallery space. Even with all the money poured into it to repurpose it as the Art Gallery, one of the arguments made for them needed a new facility was supposedly water infiltration in the lower-level spaces.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think a big argument for it is that the province is only one source of funding while many other sources (adding up to most of the total funding?) seem to be committed or on their way. So they are pulling the plug on perhaps $X of funding and killing a project worth $2X (from which they'd probably collect $0.2X in revenues).

PNS was on the hook for most of the cost of the new art palace. $70 mil up front plus responsible for the inevitable cost overruns. On what would surely be at least a $200 million project they would be paying for about 70%.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

What's wrong with Develop Nova Scotia? They have done a great job!

Well, they no longer exist as a provincial entity as of Tuesday and their CEO is out of a job, so apparently that view was not shared by those responsible.

When they were Waterfront Development they accomplished very little aside from operating waterfront parking lots and moved at a snail's pace. Then the McNeil govt reconstituted them as DevelopNS and gave them more responsibilities like rural broadband internet for NS - I have not heard anything on that front recently but also have not heard of any great leaps forward either. Their one big accomplishment seemed to be the viewing platform at Peggy's Cove, something long overdue and which would more logically have been done by either Tourism or those responsible for provincial parks in the past. I recall hearing that there was a sense that some of their leadership was all about image and less about doing their mandate, but I can't say why that was. I seriously doubt much will change in that regard under the new structure.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Empire

With unprecedented growth in HRM one would think that investment in cultural and sporting facilities would be a logical choice. Halifax has almost no notable cultural or sporting facilities and if the goal is to grow the population of HRM, this type of investment is essential. One could argue that Scotiabank Centre, the Sportsplex, BMO Center, all weather fields, The Central Public Library and Convention Centre were too costly and the funds would be better allocated to hospitals and road construction. Where would we be without them?

The first two facilities were built in the late '70s/early '80s and were quite cheap in retrospect. Both arenas are too small and need replacement now.

As for the rest, almost all were too costly. The 4-pad arena aircraft hangers provide very few amenities for spectators and come across as no-frills types of places with zero architectural merit yet from what I recall cost from $40mil to $60 mil apiece. The library was, of course, a ridiculously extravagant project but we need not rehash that here. That extravagance will soon be outstripped once the Forum project starts rolling with a pricetag in excess of $100 mil for a couple of ice surfaves in a reproduction brick building. The CC cost is difficult to parse out from the rest of Nova Centre so determining if it is too expensive or not is almost impossible. We did need such a facility though so something had to be done.

In any event aside from part of the CC cost all of those were/are HRM projects where cost is generally no object since they are drowning in excess cash and spend like they just won the lottery. The Province does not have that luxury.

What I find interesting on this is that aside from a few artsy types wailing about it, there has been almost universal public support for the decision to cancel the Art Gallery. Not even the opposition leaders could generate much steam condemning the decision by the govt to pull the plug. If that means people are finally starting to realize that govt cannot solve everyone's problem or address everyone's pet issue, and that it is beginning to focus on the priorities of the people (at the moment, the healthcare crisis) and directing resources towards those, that can only be a good thing. Govt is spread dangerously thin by trying to be all things to all people.