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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 2:59 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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The reality is that by 2020+ many of the current spring training facilities will be abandoned/demolished. HoHoKam is already being abandoned, so is TEP. I've read that the Brewers want out of Maryvale, the A's want out of Muni, and the M's/Padres will be looking for something better in 10 years. Whether those stadiums remain or not - you could retrofit the old stadiums or you could build the new ones with these sorts of events in mind. Both are possible.

As far as the heat goes, the Sydney Olympics were held Sept 15-October 1. During that period of time, our average high is around 95 degrees. That is much more manageable for an athlete...especially runners from Africa and Central America. All of that being said, has no one considered just holding most of the outdoor running events in Flagstaff or Prescott? Even Tucson is cooler than Phoenix that time of year. If heat is THAT much of a concern, moving those events to a spot that is 10-15 degrees cooler would make them much more manageable.

I still feel like we could make the whole Liberal Arts College/MLS Stadium renovation happen at the Fair Grounds and convert that area into a transit hub. I know we all love Union Station but the cost of renovation might be too great. I would propose turning the fairgrounds into the Olympic Villiage with a MLS soccer-specific-stadium as the centerpiece. After the event, the residential units could be converted to dorms and the other buildings could become classrooms. The stadium could be used by the school as well as the proposed MLS team. That location is much better than a Mesa location. The next step would be to run LRT down Washington to 19th Ave and then North to McDowell. You'd simply build a major train depot there at the intersection of Grand/19th/McDowell where HSR/Commuter & LRT came together. I think a lot of us would like to see a revitalized area there...seems like the perfect place to do it.
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 3:20 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Much larger? They have about 1 million more at present time and we're talking about 2024 here, Phoenix will surely eclipse Atlantas 1996 population by then if it hasn't yet.
Bigger isn't better, and shouldn't be used as a factor for determining if PHX is ready to hold this kind of event. Phx should focus on quality over quantity. While we may have a similar population to ATL metro by 2024 or even more people, we attract low income earners, have no industry like ATL does, and no old East/West Coast wealth. We have surpassed SD over 10 years ago, yet we remain left in the dust by our neighbor.

Mesa is larger than Miami, in a region with similar populations, but we all know the physical/cultural/demographical differences each city has to offer. Lagos, Nigeria has a pop similar to NYC projected to expand greatly, but who cares, it simply doesn't have the infrastructure, wealth, industry to support this kind of event.
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 3:43 PM
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All of that being said, has no one considered just holding most of the outdoor running events in Flagstaff or Prescott?
I really don't think the IOC would go for that. Like I said from everything Ive read they love the proximity of all the events in London to one another (for the most part of course there are a few that are far away) and thats a big selling factor. You're right though, highs of 95 are fine and a lot of the events will be played in the evening/night so it should be OK.

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Fair Grounds
Im not sure if that area is big enough, if you converted all of that parking lot space, even the stuff West of 19th Ave Google Maps estimates its only around 70 acres. Londons Olympic village for instance has a planned 17,320 beds, I imagine you'd have to build pretty dense to achieve that number at the State Fairgrounds and I can't imagine neighborhood residents going for that. Though I do like the idea of international visitors seeing Encanto Palmcroft over S. Phoenix it seems like a lot of Villages are in old/run down areas that theyre part of a plan to revitalize, so perhaps thats expected.

If the Coliseum was used as a venue (and this would require gutting it and just saving its shell Id guess) Id like to see all that surface parking around it knocked out and turned into well planned green park space to enlarge Encanto Park. Doing something like that would Id hope appease the NIMBY neighbors who might be annoyed with having to put up with increased traffic and noise for a month.

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Bigger isn't better, and shouldn't be used as a factor for determining if PHX is ready to hold this kind of event..
I agree, Don was just bringing up raw population numbers and sorta made it seem like Phoenix is way too small I was saying its not. I agree Phoenix needs to focus on more high paying jobs and diversifying its economy, Im all for any measures taken to that effect.

EDIT: Hey look, London is turning their Olympic Village into a new University and I thought I had an original idea! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_universities
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 5:06 PM
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WOW, I didn't think many people would be for the Olympics here in Phoenix. I am glad that I brought this up.

You guys are putting more work and thought into this than I ever imagined. This would be a great start for any Phoenix Olympic Committee to begin with.

Thanks
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 6:39 PM
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With UofP being available, ASU could temporarily play there while you demolish SDS (and trust me I love that place and would be sad to see it go) and put in an Olympic stadium that holds 80-90K then can be paired down to 60-70K for ASU. You can't use UofP like has been mentioned because there's no room for a track, but in a new stadium in Tempe you could do it.
I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but go watch a football game at USC. Olympic stadiums just do not make good football stadiums. I think the only way ASU would or should ever be on board with uing SDS for an olympic stadium would be if there was a definite plan to completely renovate the stadium (the easiest way would be to sink the field down until it's actually football sized and extend the stands out to it) to make it useable for football after the games. It's not just about seating capacity. Between the games probably being in the early fall and the renovation work that would have to be done on the stadium after the games, you also have to consider that ASU would lose at least a football season. They could play in UofP stadium (if the Cardinals agreed to it), but that's a very long way away from campus.
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 7:00 PM
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EDIT: Hey look, London is turning their Olympic Village into a new University and I thought I had an original idea! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_universities
Now this is something I'd be in favor for 100%!
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 7:48 PM
Tempe_Duck Tempe_Duck is offline
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I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but go watch a football game at USC. Olympic stadiums just do not make good football stadiums. I think the only way ASU would or should ever be on board with uing SDS for an olympic stadium would be if there was a definite plan to completely renovate the stadium (the easiest way would be to sink the field down until it's actually football sized and extend the stands out to it) to make it useable for football after the games. It's not just about seating capacity. Between the games probably being in the early fall and the renovation work that would have to be done on the stadium after the games, you also have to consider that ASU would lose at least a football season. They could play in UofP stadium (if the Cardinals agreed to it), but that's a very long way away from campus.

I am not sure about the width needed for a Olympic Stadium, but you could always build on "end" of the stadium to be temporary and move it closer to the field.

Think of it like taking the sections at USC that you can't use and removing as many sections as needed to make the rounded part of the stadium fit.
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mwadswor View Post
I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but go watch a football game at USC. Olympic stadiums just do not make good football stadiums. I think the only way ASU would or should ever be on board with uing SDS for an olympic stadium would be if there was a definite plan to completely renovate the stadium (the easiest way would be to sink the field down until it's actually football sized and extend the stands out to it) to make it useable for football after the games. It's not just about seating capacity. Between the games probably being in the early fall and the renovation work that would have to be done on the stadium after the games, you also have to consider that ASU would lose at least a football season. They could play in UofP stadium (if the Cardinals agreed to it), but that's a very long way away from campus.
Ive been to the Coliseum as well as other stadiums w/ tracks around them, I totally agree, they stink for football!

But what Im saying is, Sun Devil Stadium is sadly falling apart. It going to cost an estimated $70 million just to make it safe. Then add on improvements they've wanted to do for years like improving the bathrooms, walkways, putting in real seats, perhaps a shade structure, etc and the costs really start mounting. At some point it becomes smarter to build a totally new stadium, if Phoenix was going to pursue the Olympics that would be the perfect time to demolish and re-do SDS.

For the Olympics you have a 80K+ stadium w/ a track, after the games you reduce it to 65K, sink the field a bit, extend the stands, etc. and ASU has a 1st rate facility.

Using ASU Id think would mean also being able to jointly fund the stadium w/ ASU. Demolishing SDS, building a new stadium in that site (and it has to be that site in my opinion) and then retrofitting it obviously wouldn't be cheap. It would probably approach if not exceed the cost of Cowboys stadium but with ASU and their kicking in a portion of that, it could make things more manageable.
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 10:06 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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Ya, the trick would just be to leave the lowest ring of seats out of the initial build. Then, once the event is over, you add 15-25 rows of premium seating that puts you right on the side lines.

FWIW - The LA Colosseum may suck for football but it was awesome for baseball!
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Ive been to the Coliseum as well as other stadiums w/ tracks around them, I totally agree, they stink for football!

But what Im saying is, Sun Devil Stadium is sadly falling apart. It going to cost an estimated $70 million just to make it safe. Then add on improvements they've wanted to do for years like improving the bathrooms, walkways, putting in real seats, perhaps a shade structure, etc and the costs really start mounting. At some point it becomes smarter to build a totally new stadium, if Phoenix was going to pursue the Olympics that would be the perfect time to demolish and re-do SDS.
There's a collosal difference between $70 million for required repairs, $170 million for required repairs + desired upgrades, and the $1 billion + , probably closer to 1.5 billion that would be required to demolish the stadium, build a new stadium for the olympics, then renovate the stadium to make it suitable for football. They aren't talking about renovations costing anything remotely, remotely close to making it "smarter to build a totally new stadium."

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For the Olympics you have a 80K+ stadium w/ a track, after the games you reduce it to 65K, sink the field a bit, extend the stands, etc. and ASU has a 1st rate facility.
Ok, just wanted to make sure that you're considering the post-games renovation when you're talking about the cost of a new stadium. It's not as simple as you make it sound. The LA Coliseum obviously has complicating factors (it's almost 90 years old and is a national landmark, with all the red tape that comes with that), but remember that there have been dozens of plans over the last several decades to renovate that stadium for football. If it's so easy, why hasn't LA been able to do it?

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Using ASU Id think would mean also being able to jointly fund the stadium w/ ASU. Demolishing SDS, building a new stadium in that site (and it has to be that site in my opinion) and then retrofitting it obviously wouldn't be cheap. It would probably approach if not exceed the cost of Cowboys stadium but with ASU and their kicking in a portion of that, it could make things more manageable.
Where is all this money coming from? ASU is having trouble getting a special tax district created to raise taxes on it's own property to raise the $170 million it wants for repairs and upgrades, and you think it's going to be able to come up with billions for a new state of the art stadium?
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2010, 11:24 PM
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http://www.azcentral.com/community/t...trict0216.html

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ASU, legislators explore ways to pay for fixes to athletic facilities

by Alia Beard Rau - Feb. 16, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Sun Devil Stadium is slowly rusting away.

The 52-year-old Arizona State University football stadium is safe, officials say. But a 2007 analysis indicated that it may not remain that way for the next generation of fans without $70 million in repairs.

The cash-strapped state isn't likely to hand over the money, and ASU has shifted its money toward academic needs, said Steve Nielsen, ASU assistant vice president of university real estate. ASU hopes lawmakers will give the university a chance to raise the money.

For the second year in a row, legislators have proposed a law to allow Arizona's three state universities to create special financing districts and charge a fee to developers that build on university property. However, opponents say it's just another tax. The revenue would go toward the construction or renovation of athletic facilities.

"The state of Arizona is broke," bill sponsor Rep. Warde Nichols, R-Gilbert, said. "We're trying to figure out how to continue funding K-12 education, the universities and transportation, let alone anything else. We have to figure out ways to generate money to handle some of the things state government can't fund."

Last year, the bill made it through the House but never got a Senate hearing.

This year, Nichols and Sen. Thayer Verschoor, R-Gilbert, introduced bills in both the House and the Senate. Verschoor said it will be a tough sell again.

"It will be an uphill climb," he said. "We have to get some comfort there for the legislation."

Under current law, commercial developers on university property do not pay property taxes. Nichols said the measure would level the playing field between a new development on university property and one on private property that pays property taxes. The fee would be comparable to what the property taxes would otherwise be, he said.

Nichols said a district's boundaries have to be part of one contiguous area. For example, ASU couldn't include land at ASU Polytechnic in Mesa as part of a stadium district for the Tempe campus. It could include land ASU owns along Tempe Town Lake and near Mill Avenue.

Nichols also said the fee would only apply to future development.

Opponents say the district would create a new taxing mechanism, unfairly impact businesses on university land and take revenue away from core academic needs.

"At a time with the university is reeling from budget cuts, this money could be better spent going into academics and academic buildings and not into a stadium that's used a couple of times a year," said Sen. Ken Cheuvront, D-Phoenix.


Kevin McCarthy, president of the Arizona Tax Research Association, said he is sympathetic to funding needs but argued that this is not the solution.

"If this is approved, cities and counties will want it, too," he said. "You'll be setting a huge precedent."

He said if universities are concerned about leveling the playing field, businesses on university land should pay property taxes "just like everybody else."

Although the legislation would impact Northern Arizona University, the University of Arizona and Arizona State, it is ASU that is really pushing for it.

Sun Devil Stadium, with 50,000 seats, opened in 1958. New decks were built in the 1970s to add room for 20,000 more seats, and a final remodel added press boxes, luxury sky boxes and more seating in 1988.

Each year, the stadium draws more than 350,000 football fans. It also is used for other sporting events and has hosted a pope, a president and musical groups. It was the home of the Fiesta Bowl for 35 years and the Arizona Cardinals for 18, until they wanted a state-of-the-art facility and the University of Phoenix Stadium was built in Glendale.

In 2007, ASU President Michael Crow appointed a committee to study the stadium and develop proposals for upgrading Sun Devil Stadium. Nielsen said the group determined that $70 million is needed for structural repairs that should be done within the next 10 years.

An additional $100 million is needed for improvements such as restroom and concession renovations, improved seats and possibly an escalator to make higher levels more accessible to older fans, he said.


ASU has spent about $10 million since then in repairs, but there's still about 80 percent of the work left to do, Nielsen said.

If the stadium district is approved, Nielsen said revenue could start within five years as new development occurs. Once work is completed on the stadium, he said, the revenue could be used to renovate the basketball arena and other facilities.

"It's a fallacy that a concrete stadium will last forever," said Bruce Jensen, executive director of ASU's capital programs. "The stadium is safe now, but if money isn't spent on this facility, it could become unsafe."
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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mwadswor View Post
There's a collosal difference between $70 million for required repairs, $170 million for required repairs + desired upgrades, and the $1 billion + , probably closer to 1.5 billion that would be required to demolish the stadium, build a new stadium for the olympics, then renovate the stadium to make it suitable for football. They aren't talking about renovations costing anything remotely, remotely close to making it "smarter to build a totally new stadium."


Where is all this money coming from? ASU is having trouble getting a special tax district created to raise taxes on it's own property to raise the $170 million it wants for repairs and upgrades, and you think it's going to be able to come up with billions for a new state of the art stadium?
Well first you have to remember that while times are tough now, they won't always be that way. It will get better and money will flow and become more available at some point.

Secondly, lets look at the improvements ASU is talking about that amount to $170M, those are pretty much bare minimum type of improvements. If they want to do something like add a shade structure (think like Euro soccer stadiums) which I've heard bandied about by boosters, reduce or change capacity, upgrade video boards, etc. thats all going to cost more. Adding real seats in SDS would be costly too because of the way the upper deck was designed you'd have to totally redo it due to a lack of space. So now if ASU wants to get SDS back up to a 1st rate facility we're talking about what, $250M? $300M?

At that point, yes its smarter for ASU to partner with Tempe, Arizona, the Federal gov't and their boosters to build new. Im not saying ASU would pay for the whole thing, far from it, they'd just pay say $250M and then jointly look for the rest of the funds elsewhere.
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 5:44 AM
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I wouldn't expect the Federal government to help. I'd barely expect the State government to help.

mwadswor, I think $1.5 billion is rather excessive for SDS's demolition, construction, and Post-olympics reconstruction. I'd give it $600 million. We are not building a fully domed professional sports stadium. It will be a college facility when it is done.

Olympic Stadium in London costs US$800 million given an unfavorable exchange rate and building in one of the world's most expensive cities.
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 7:31 AM
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I've been reading this thread with much amusement the last couple of days as I've been thinking about the subject myself: 'Could Phoenix host a Summer Games?'

Lots of things have been brought forward to comment on, but I need to think about some of them a bit more.

I do want to put out some information for you guys advocating the demolition and re-build of Sun Devil as an olympic stadium.

An olympic stadium is alot WIDER (a good 100ft) than a normal football stadium, not just longer. And the notion that you could build the stadium 'higher' and then dig out the lower bowl afterward is an interesting one. BUT...

look at the current site of Sun Devil Stadium. It sits in a natural bowl that would have to be absolutely obliterated by a stadium the size you guys are talking about. Not only that, the soils under the existing SDS are downright terrible (the existing stadium is sinking). Don't let the article fool you about re-hab costs, the existing stadium structure is absolutely stretched to the limits (I took structures at ASU from one of the engineers who has spent 20+ years working on solutions for the existing stadium).

Since you can't modify (add) to the existing stadium, you'd have to totally demo it. Due to the poor soils, you'd have to overexcavate massive amounts of both sides of the butte to the extent that the eastern side of the bowl would basically have to go away and the western side would cut way into the mountain.

Such a scenario would cause two huge problems: Public non-support of such an endeavor (I'd certainly be against it) and cost (the excavation and soils recompaction alone could add at least $100M to the cost). $600-$800M sounds about right.

And unfortunately, there just isn't room for another stadium of that size anywhere contiguous to the ASU campus. And since the Cardinals play in a brand new uber stadium (though too small) and the Diamondbacks play in a facility that is relatively new but also too small, a brand new stadium would be tough sell.

Granted, by 2024, the BOB will be 26 years old and it's already showing its age now. So it's not totally inconceivable that a new olympic stadium could be built downtown that could then be retrofitted to a new baseball stadium (though since you have to have a dome for baseball in Phoenix, this becomes extremely complicated and expensive compared to the Atlanta stadium). I also wonder about where such a new stadium would go in DT Phoenix (since you couldn't tear down the BOB until after the new stadium was retro-fitted for baseball). Then again, maybe the railyards starts to look even better (though I love the idea of an olympic village along an extended Town Lake at Central).

Purely academic as Phoenix has almost no shot at getting such an event, but fun to consider from a planning perspective.
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Last edited by plinko; Feb 18, 2010 at 8:56 AM.
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 8:20 AM
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Just for fun I did a little photoshop work using Google Earth to give you guys an idea just how big an olympic stadium is. I chose what I think would be maybe the best sites in the city in terms of siting, infrastructure, access. I use the Beijing 'Birdsnest' as a reference (and YES, it is to scale).

Tempe - Sun Devil Stadium site


Phoenix - UP Railyards site


Phoenix - Capitol Mall site


Phoenix - State Fairgrounds site


I maybe find a Capitol Mall site the most intriguing. The city has been working for 40+ years on trying to link the Capitol area to downtown. With the stadium (and adjacent Olympic Village) built along the axis just to the south of Capitol Mall, you could expand transit substantially along this corridor, it would spur development in the neighborhood just the north (full of wonderful old houses, but kind of a dead zone).

I can do other sites if you guys have suggestions...
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 6:12 PM
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I would love to find a way to put the new stadium at the location on SDS. Using your guide of the Birds Nest would never work. There is no way anyone would get permission to "remove" the eastern mountain at the current site.

One way I can see it working is this. Watching opening Ceremonies, there are a lot of things that come up from the ground. This would led me to believe there is a pretty big underground structure there. If the structure was large enough you could "jack" that stadium up so that it would fit into the current saddle. I don't know how high that would make the stadium so that might cause problems it self. But it is an idea.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 6:20 PM
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^You're not understanding. ANY new stadium is going to be heavier than the existing stadium. And the existing soils below are bad. So AFTER demolition of SDS, you'd have to substantially overexcavate the existing soils and then re-compact to form a solid base. That act alone would completely destroy the 'bowl' of the site as it sits today. Can't be done. Even building a new football only stadium (much smaller than an olympic stadium) would require alot of this work.

You can't just 'jack it up'. Structures don't work that way. If the soil is bad, it's going to settle.
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2010, 8:10 PM
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So all this talk of olympic facilities has me wondering: Does anybody know what the status of USA Basketball's move to the Phoenix area (Glendale) is? Has that been pushed back with no exact timetable, or is it dead, or what? A quick internet search has only returned old information. Even USA Basketball's website has old information on the move dating back into 2008. There is really nothing newer out there, that I have found, than from about a year ago, and that information said that the move could come later this year. But, I don't see how that could be, I don't even think they have started construction on any of it.
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2010, 12:08 AM
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Plinko regarding your proposed sites I think you have to put it at ASU otherwise you have a white elephant on your hands. SDS is going to need replacing anyway, and what good is a 70K+ stadium going to do in any other part of the Valley? Itll just sit empty most of the year. The Capitol Mall site in particular wouldn't work as you've got it plopped not on a dirt lot as it may appear from Google Maps but on the Pioneer Cemetery where a lot of the city founders are buried.


Personally I LOVE the location of the current SDS, sitting their between the buttes, there's just some cool about it. Id want that to be the location but if it were somehow totally impossible you just move the stadium a bit north where all that surface parking is, and reroute Rio Salado Pkwy. Then the area between the buttes could be a large green/tailgating area like the Great Lawn at UofP.
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2010, 12:21 PM
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Rio Salado may as well go under it....

Personally I think the Bird's Nest is a poor example. 91,000 is definitely on the upper end of capacity for Olympic stadia. London's is 80,000.

But this premise of football stadiums as Olympic stadiums just doesn't work tho in practice. Baseball and soccer stadiums have a better precedent for conversion after.

What about Chase Field? Especially with the example of Turner field and how better the LA Colosseum is for baseball than football. Improvements to the railyards (Olympic village or not) could put the train in a tunnel. A freight rail tunnel would have numerous side benefits to downtown and would likely be required for construction of the South Central Avenue LRT line. Reroute the junction to the south and you'd have at least another block or two to work with on the stadium. Fix the god awful north side to Chase as well.

That way Phoenix 20XX would actually be in Phoenix for the most part.

Chase is also owned by the county, the same entity that would likely own Olympic venues funded through any property tax increases.

Last edited by combusean; Feb 19, 2010 at 12:41 PM.
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