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Old Posted Aug 14, 2010, 4:25 AM
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Why not commute by water?

Why not commute by water?

There are obvious benefits, but also serious challenges, to expanding marine transit around Metro

By Don Cayo, Vancouver Sun August 13, 2010 9:00 PM



The Harbour Lynx passenger ferry arrives in Vancouver from Nanaimo.
Photograph by: Ward Perrin, Vancouver Sun file


VANCOUVER — The inlets and rivers slicing through our city create a traffic nightmare on land — a series of more or less chronic bottlenecks that lengthen commutes and shorten tempers.

Our communities and our neighbourhoods are, indeed, divided by our waterways.

But what if Metro Vancouver began using water to unify, not amplify, its divisions? Could we go beyond the SeaBus and take a page from places like Sydney, Australia, or Hong Kong, where ferries play a much greater role in moving citizens around?

The possibilities for greatly expanded water transit here seem almost endless. The experts — at least those TransLink has consulted — are wary (for some good, although not insurmountable, reasons). And the region’s track record of experiments to date is mixed.

The best success story, and it is dramatic, is the SeaBus. Since 1977, it has built a customer volume of nearly six million a year. Revenue from its 543 passengers per hour substantially exceeds its operating cost of about $900 an hour. And, I would argue, it was the driving force behind development of the charming high-density residential and commercial area around North Van’s Lonsdale Quay, as well as a big contributor to the growth and character of downtown Vancouver.

Not bad for two small boats, recently bolstered to three.

On a lesser scale — although not as small as I’d have guessed — the little False Creek ferry fleet, run by two competing companies, have carved out a worthwhile niche. They move about a million people a year, roughly one-sixth the SeaBus volume.

Rounding out the Metro water links is BC Ferries’ Bowen Island run, a handful of on-again, off-again private water taxis that quietly sprang up and then folded over the years, and a 100-year history of other ferries, the last one crossing the Fraser River at Albion, that quit running one by one as road-bridge networks came to provide cheaper alternatives.

Potential routes

In 1995 and again in 2003, TransLink studied other possibilities for ferry routes, four of them seriously:

• Snug Cove on Bowen Island to Ambleside in West Vancouver to the West End to Jericho/Kitsilano, with UBC bus links.

• Lonsdale Quay to

...

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/commute+...#ixzz0wYEN7yDm
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  #2  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2010, 4:42 AM
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I never took the Vancouver-Nanaimo catamaran. It seems really useful but maybe it suffered from losing clients to the seaplanes. It is kind of a niche service, not useful for people who want the cheapest option, the fastest option, or have a vehicle.

Fuel consumption per passenger mile is not necessarily a good way to look at ferries because they normally take shorter paths than roads (there is no point in having them otherwise). Ambleside to Kits is around 6 kilometres by boat but 12 kilometres by road.

It's weird how there has been to little interest in ferries since the last investments in the 1970s or so. Halifax is very similar, with 2 ferry routes. They are considering 3 or 4 other routes and have done tests with catamarans (that go 40-50 km/h with relatively little wake - probably very similar to the Harbour Lynx) that worked out fine. There was some money approved for the first ferry in 2008 but nothing has actually happened.
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Old Posted Aug 14, 2010, 5:09 AM
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Let's face it: TransLink is dead set against ferry expansion. Their planners show very little imagination when it comes to what is possible. If you ask them why, they will only be too happy to give you a hundred reasons for "why not'.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 8:36 AM
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The main problem I think with ferries is how they're limited to the water only... they can't go farther than the water itself to transport people to where they need to go. This means that people may have to do at least two or more transfers to get to their intended destination. Also, although the residential popluation of Downtown Vancouver, North and West Vancouvers, Port Moody, and New Westminister are concentrated at the shoreline, most other cities are built inland, which makes the multiple transfer issue even more problematic and inconvenient.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 9:44 AM
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I think commuting by water is a great idea. Unfortuantely, here in Vancouver, the only really practical routes are downtown - North Shore. We currently have Downtown >> Lonsdale Quay, but there could be added , for example : Downtown > Ambleside, Downtown >Deep Cove.

In Istanbul, ferry commuting is very largescale and frequent, with numerous routes, but the city population is very big, so there is a high demand, and there are many different points to be served, heading into the main terminus at Eminonü, the traditional city centre terminus.

This differs somewhat from Vancouver, with a smaller population, less demand, and only one really practical body of water to be served: the harbour seperating the city from the North Shore. Of course, going from downtown to UBC is an option, but the service would need to be fast and frequent. The question is: is there enough demand to justify such a maintained high level of service?
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 2:51 PM
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I've always wondered why Translink didn't run a ferry from Ambleside to the Seabus terminal as they used to. Congestion at the First Narrow maybe?

PS Is the old West Van ferry, the MV Hollyburn, still at the Harbour Cruises docks at the foot of Denman?
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...:0&tx=43&ty=29
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 3:51 PM
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I've always wondered why Translink didn't build docks for vehicle ferries across the Burrard Inlet. The Albion Ferry could've been moved over and used as a 3rd option for vehicles after the Golden Ears Bridge was built.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Distill3d View Post
I've always wondered why Translink didn't build docks for vehicle ferries across the Burrard Inlet. The Albion Ferry could've been moved over and used as a 3rd option for vehicles after the Golden Ears Bridge was built.
There are precious few people who would wait for a ferry when they could just drive across a bridge for free.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 5:59 PM
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There are precious few people who would wait for a ferry when they could just drive across a bridge for free.
Especially when the ferry would not be free, and would take a really, really, really long time.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 6:25 PM
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The seabus is fine and all until you do it 10 times a week and realize how painfully slow it is. I regret moving to Lonsdale. Give me a Canada line extension any day, or any kind of bridge (even bike only) from the north end of Main street. My commute would be 75% faster.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 6:27 PM
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It really would be great to have a SkyTrain going over to the NS.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
The seabus is fine and all until you do it 10 times a week and realize how painfully slow it is. I regret moving to Lonsdale. Give me a Canada line extension any day, or any kind of bridge (even bike only) from the north end of Main street. My commute would be 75% faster.
The Seabus goes from North Vancouver to downtown just as fast as the Skytrain does from my closest station at 29th Ave. And it's way faster than any bus that tries to go from Lonsdale Quay to downtown.

I used to take the Skytrain and Seabus to work and back every day, and I found it to be an extremely pleasant way to commute.

The Seabus's biggest failing isn't its speed, it's the fact that it doesn't have a very high frequency. That's why it's so disappointing that they haven't put all three Seabuses into service to provide a 10-minute service interval. The biggest problem with doing that is the perceived need to increase the frequency of most of the North Vancouver bus routes to match.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 9:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
It really would be great to have a SkyTrain going over to the NS.
Couldn't agree more !!! Just got back from Istanbul, where they're building a line from the Asia Minor side of the city, under the Bosphorus, over to the European side. They're using Japanese technology for it. I don't know the geology there (or here, for that matter), but it would stand to reason that if they can do it, we could do it.
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Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Couldn't agree more !!! Just got back from Istanbul, where they're building a line from the Asia Minor side of the city, under the Bosphorus, over to the European side. They're using Japanese technology for it. I don't know the geology there (or here, for that matter), but it would stand to reason that if they can do it, we could do it.
Not to beat a dead horse, but Burrard inlet is too steep and deep for a skytrain tunnel from Waterfront to Lonsdale!
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Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
Not to beat a dead horse, but Burrard inlet is too steep and deep for a skytrain tunnel from Waterfront to Lonsdale!
The deepest part of the inlet is only 75m. Assuming the depth at both end of the 3km tunnel is 15m, the average grade required for an immersed tube (like the Massey Tunnel or the BART Transbay tube) would only be 4%. If they use a submerged floating tunnel, then even less grade would be required.

[Edit]
Did a bit of research..

The maximum depth of Burrard Inlet is about 100m, located south of Point Atkinson. The maximum depth at the First and Second narrow are 15m and 19m respectively. East of the First Narrow to the mouth of Indian Arm, the average depth is 21m, with the maximum depth of 65m in a limited region near Vancouver Harbour. East of Indian Arm to Port Moody, the average depth is 9m.

Last edited by nname; Aug 16, 2010 at 12:40 AM.
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Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 12:43 AM
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It is not clear to me that routes other than Lonsdale Quay - Waterfront are economically viable. Looking at population statistics, the North Shore has roughy 8% of the population of Metro Vancouver spread over a large area. The Lonsdale Quay is near the densest area of the North Shore. Exactly how much of a market is there for trips to Bowen Island or Deep Cove to Waterfront?

The idea of extending Skytrain to the North Shore does not make sense to me either for the same reason. I don't think there is a sufficient market.
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Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 3:27 AM
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Originally Posted by satishreddy View Post
It is not clear to me that routes other than Lonsdale Quay - Waterfront are economically viable. Looking at population statistics, the North Shore has roughy 8% of the population of Metro Vancouver spread over a large area. The Lonsdale Quay is near the densest area of the North Shore. Exactly how much of a market is there for trips to Bowen Island or Deep Cove to Waterfront?

The idea of extending Skytrain to the North Shore does not make sense to me either for the same reason. I don't think there is a sufficient market.
You can say that, but keep in mind what Lonsdale looked like before the SeaBus happened. The SeaBus was pretty much the spear-head of the densification and population increase in that area.

Now if we made a new foot-passenger-only fast-ferry route in Burrard Inlet, stopping at such locations as Deep Cove, Belcarra, Waterfront Station, and Port Moody, I believe that we'd see growth in all those areas too, due to the better transport in the area.
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Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 6:20 AM
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The original article mentioned the ferry system in Sydney, Australia, and to be sure, it's a system I love using when I'm there and wish that Vancouver could do something similar.

But upon further reflection I'm not sure it would work in Vancouver. The geography and population density patterns are different, the distances for the most part longer, and the weather conditions in winter more severe here.

Someone proposed Belcarra or Deep Cove. I don't see how a ferry to these communities would work outside the summer months. The population of Belcarra is less than 1,000 people. Compare that to the Manly - Circular Quay ferry in Sydney that serves commuters as well as visitors, where the population of Manly is 13,000.

Port Moody might work given the larger population, but the only practical landing place is at Rocky Point, and that is a fair distance from any residential. Again, using Sydney as a comparison, the ferry piers tend to be conveniently located near residential/commercial areas. That's why the False Creek ferries are able to stay afloat (sorry, bad pun, couldn't resist ).
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Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by satishreddy View Post
It is not clear to me that routes other than Lonsdale Quay - Waterfront are economically viable. Looking at population statistics, the North Shore has roughy 8% of the population of Metro Vancouver spread over a large area. The Lonsdale Quay is near the densest area of the North Shore. Exactly how much of a market is there for trips to Bowen Island or Deep Cove to Waterfront?

The idea of extending Skytrain to the North Shore does not make sense to me either for the same reason. I don't think there is a sufficient market.
Repost this figure I made earlier



I expect the boarding at Lonsdale would only grow with a faster and more frequent service (at least to the same level as City Hall, Lougheed, maybe?). So base on this, with at least 6 million trips a year, this might not be a bad investiment...
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Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 8:18 AM
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
Not to beat a dead horse, but Burrard inlet is too steep and deep for a skytrain tunnel from Waterfront to Lonsdale!
In fact, I had forgotten that, so thanks for the reminder. However, if they could build it first, laterally, at an angle to gain depth, then go across and under, then come up again at a lateral angle, would this be feasible?
I know it seems a bit tricky - and $$$$$$$$$$ - no doubt.
Just an idea though, that's all.

(I think the Bosphorus is pretty deep too, especially near the mouth of it, where they're building this tunnel)
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