Downtown grocer location-SAISD HQ?

[maxus]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...wFullArticle=y

quick cut and paste of the possibilities for a future supermarket and retail/residential:

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[jaga185]

I can see the naysayers point, this mentality got us the Alamodome... that was a success. But I feel this is different. It's the type of backwards mentality this city has, instead of building something when the market is there, it would be more of a way to entice people to come in and sadly that might work.

I say a flagship Central Market would be great downtown, sure it would lose money at first. But if you make it amazing, people will come from around the city to shop there. Hell, every time I go to A-town I stop at the Whole Foods in downtown because it's amazing! That location for a new building is perfect. Use the money the article talks about to build a parking garage for the project and literally beg them to build there with tax subsidy or something. It's time we think a little more long term rather than now.

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by jaga185

I can see the naysayers point, this mentality got us the Alamodome... that was a success. But I feel this is different. It's the type of backwards mentality this city has, instead of building something when the market is there, it would be more of a way to entice people to come in and sadly that might work.

I say a flagship Central Market would be great downtown, sure it would lose money at first. But if you make it amazing, people will come from around the city to shop there. Hell, every time I go to A-town I stop at the Whole Foods in downtown because it's amazing! That location for a new building is perfect. Use the money the article talks about to build a parking garage for the project and literally beg them to build there with tax subsidy or something. It's time we think a little more long term rather than now.

I think you should step back and really think about what you are saying.
- The Alamodome has hosted events, but it was built to attract an NFL team. It has not done that and it will not do that.
- Grocery stores never build in areas that do not have a large number of residents to support it. They have very low margins and need lots of volume to stay in business.
- San Antonio only has one Central Market and that location is near downtown. Why would they open their second that close to the first?
- The Whole Foods store in Austin actually moved from across the street. They had already established themselves as a grocery store in that area. The neighborhoods off North Lamar and MoPac and near UT have the income and numbers to support that store (This was prior to the condo boom). Just a few miles north is Austin's first Central Market. That dynamic does not exist in downtown San Antonio. From what I've read, people want a store with HEB Plus prices.

It's not backwards mentality; it's practicality. Subsidizing a grocery store is the last thing the city needs to do. They can improve infrastructure, put practical planning in place, have high standards for downtown development, make it difficult for properties owners who do not maintain properties, etc. There is a role that the city can play in bringing downtown back, but they should not be in the grocery business (just like they should not be in the hotel or condo business).

Maybe downtown residents would use a grocery delivery service? Would they pay for it?

[miaht82]

Those are good points kornbread... I also think that it shouldn't be forced right now.
DT has been gaining some momentum, and will continue, but even then that is still not enough for it to maintain a grocery store. If they force HEB to open there, it just kills the hope that SA could've organically come up with their own "whole foods" or similar. Why a full-fledged grocery store? Why not try a smaller produce market first?
The article says that 3 times the downtown units would make one viable, but I think that even doubling it would create enough buzz to the point that you could start including people on the outer fringes of DT to the # of people that would use such a store.
Using these numbers/estimates... 2,600 units, 4,400 residents DT - 1.7 ppl/unit on avg.... I'm making these assumptions.
After this next round (1221,Pearl,Cevallos,) adding ~750 units would bring up the resident count to ~5,700. After that, I would say that 7 more projects of at least 250 or more units would give us around double the resident count in DT.
It would be hard to imagine something not being available by that point, I mean, if people are talking about it now, why wouldn't it happen then? That means that after the next three (assuming 1221,Pearl, and Cevallos are complete by Dec. of next year,) we would be looking at these projects also either u/c, complete or at least have some sort of activity going on... Big Tex, Lone Star, Vidorra II, 1800, Mission Plant, plus a couple more in RN? Thats alot of units, and alot more feet on the street.
I think the city should go after SAISD's land, but not for the sake of forcing a grocery store there. Let it happen organically, and use the money that would be used for incentives to be put towards getting the next few residential projects rolling along and continue the momentum.

Wouldn't that be something to see people riding the Rio Taxi from Pearl/River North or taking the streetcar from SoFlo/Southtown, riding their bikes from Mission Plant/Lone Star to Hemisfair Park where the latest mixed-use development includes DT's much anticipated grocery store at street level?
I'm just saying....

[Schertz1]

Originally Posted by jaga185

I can see the naysayers point, this mentality got us the Alamodome... that was a success. But I feel this is different. It's the type of backwards mentality this city has, instead of building something when the market is there, it would be more of a way to entice people to come in and sadly that might work.

I say a flagship Central Market would be great downtown, sure it would lose money at first. But if you make it amazing, people will come from around the city to shop there. Hell, every time I go to A-town I stop at the Whole Foods in downtown because it's amazing! That location for a new building is perfect. Use the money the article talks about to build a parking garage for the project and literally beg them to build there with tax subsidy or something. It's time we think a little more long term rather than now.

Problem is it cannot be too amazing or it will cannibalize Central Market. It should start as a new concept similar to Central Market, but with personalized service. It should be subsidized – in part –by the city/county until downtown reaches a population threshold. It would need to be small – with an expansion plan – and focus heavily on developing a weekly doorstep delivery market. I would like to see it in a historic building or at least with a faux historic facade. I think the Metropolitan Health District Building at 328 W. Commerce would be ideal, a look unique to San Antonio.
Another problem is in San Antonio we are too eager to accept no, it cannot happen, as the answer. We do not put enough thought or effort in to making things happen.
Next time I am in Austin, I will have to check out the DT Whole foods. I do think the Whole Foods portion of the article is BS, one, I believe it was there before the DT condominium boom, two, over half of the units are vacant, and three, if 13,500 DT residents is the threshold for viability, Whole Foods would not be successful.

[Keep-SA-Lame]

Laredo has an urban grocer (HEB del Centro in downtown Laredo). There's really no reason we can't have a similar concept here. The one in Laredo is smaller than a regular HEB, and caters mostly to lower income shoppers. If SA followed this model (as opposed to a fancy Central Market or Whole Foods like the large wealthy Texas cities have) I think it might actually work, because there are a lot of low income residents around downtown. Also, there is a large volume of bus passengers passing through/transferring downtown (presumably lower income for the most part). A low cost grocer like HEB could definitely pick up on some of that business in addition to downtown/near downtown residents.

Also, as far as location goes, how about something in the core of downtown, such as the old Joske's? It's at a toursity corner yes, but it's a very busy corner for both pedestrians and cars, is on the proposed streetcar route and is quite close to Southtown.


edit: I stumbled across this on the internet: http://www.urbandevelopmentservices....ummary_IDA.pdf There is a description of the DT Laredo HEB in the first entry.

[Schertz1]

The people buying lofts and condos or renting apartments are not low-income people so the store should be a place they would want to shop. Not saying it should be a whole foods; in my opinion, shopping there is throwing money away. There are plenty grocery stores in the low income neighborhoods surrounding downtown.

[Keep-SA-Lame]

I understand that people that live in downtown proper aren't low income, but I'm trying to say that a grocery store downtown will have to have out of DT shoppers to survive, and the nearby customer base (nearby neighborhoods and bus riders) is mostly low income. The problem is that the near east, west, and southwest sides already have conviniently located HEBs (East Houston, West Commerce and Nogalitos respectively).

But again going back to what exists in Laredo (sorry to keep bringing up Laredo, but I feel that with respect to the grocery store we have more in common with Laredo than with the big texas cities), there is also an HEB in the middle of the neighborhoods to the north and east of their downtown (they have no west or south sides to speak of since that would be in Mexico). The point: a downtown grocery store can be supported by a low income city with a low income inner city, even if there are already grocery stores in some of the neighborhoods).

[jaga185]

Kornbread, I think you missed the sarcasm at the beginning of my post, especially concerning the Alamodome. I am a firm supporter of tearing that atrocity down, send me to the donation box please.

After reading some of the posts on MySA, those people need a grocery store close to them. It will also serve people around the downtown area as well, not just Downtown dwellers. If people are willing to drive out to get the things they need, wouldn't surrounding neighborhoods be willing to drive inward, and if feasible, bike/walk to get the things they need as well?

Keep-sa-lame, you're right about creating a new concept store, a new type of H-E-B even?

[oldmanshirt]

I think the problem is more gross numbers than incomes. After all, poor people buy lots of food too, even if they use food stamps or vouchers to do it. And I don't think SA is having a loser mentality about it (in fact, this is the most gung-ho I've seen SA get about something in awhile that was unrelated to football), but it is falling into the same pattern of not looking outside of Texas for examples of how things might work. Heck, most people can't seem to look any farther than 80 miles north, KSAL excepted.

For example, here in Kansas City most estimates place the downtown population around 17,000, yet they just got a grocery store down there last year. This coincided with several hundred million dollars of retail and entertainment development, and its not even a full-service grocer, more like a super-CVS. This isn't to say SA needs 17k downtown, just that getting a store is going to be more about timing and real money than mere can-do spirit and government subsidies.

One last thing. While the grocery store is seen as intertwined with residential development (which is true), you can't discount the millions of tourists and conventioneers than visit downtown every year. I remember my wife and I stayed at the Sheraton Gunter a couple of christmases ago for our anniversary. Since we don't drink wine, we were looking for some sparkling grape juice, which none of the downtown markets had. A grocery store would've been a really nice amenity, even though we weren't residents. I know stores like HEB probably have very rigid business models and don't typically take tourists into account, but it would seem SA's visitor population might nudge things closer to that critical mass needed to make it work.

[Schertz1]

Originally Posted by Keep-SA-Lame

I understand that people that live in downtown proper aren't low income, but I'm trying to say that a grocery store downtown will have to have out of DT shoppers to survive, and the nearby customer base (nearby neighborhoods and bus riders) is mostly low income. The problem is that the near east, west, and southwest sides already have conviniently located HEBs (East Houston, West Commerce and Nogalitos respectively).

But again going back to what exists in Laredo (sorry to keep bringing up Laredo, but I feel that with respect to the grocery store we have more in common with Laredo than with the big texas cities), there is also an HEB in the middle of the neighborhoods to the north and east of their downtown (they have no west or south sides to speak of since that would be in Mexico). The point: a downtown grocery store can be supported by a low income city with a low income inner city, even if there are already grocery stores in some of the neighborhoods).

I disagree, San Antonio has more in common with the other major cities than with Laredo. IMO, this is the kind of thinking that holds San Antonio back. We should market the DT grocery store to the low-income! Are you serious? How about market to the people that live there and tourist and if low-income people want to utilize it, all the better. I have a Kroger's 1.5 blocks from my house, which caters to my neighborhood. I buy 90% of my groceries there. The other 10% come from Sam's or Costco, Central Market, or the commissary. I certainly would not drive past a perfectly good store in my neighborhood to buy the same products in River Oaks or any where else.

[Schertz1]

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

I think the problem is more gross numbers than incomes. After all, poor people buy lots of food too, even if they use food stamps or vouchers to do it. And I don't think SA is having a loser mentality about it (in fact, this is the most gung-ho I've seen SA get about something in awhile that was unrelated to football), but it is falling into the same pattern of not looking outside of Texas for examples of how things might work. Heck, most people can't seem to look any farther than 80 miles north, KSAL excepted.

For example, here in Kansas City most estimates place the downtown population around 17,000, yet they just got a grocery store down there last year. This coincided with several hundred million dollars of retail and entertainment development, and its not even a full-service grocer, more like a super-CVS. This isn't to say SA needs 17k downtown, just that getting a store is going to be more about timing and real money than mere can-do spirit and government subsidies.

One last thing. While the grocery store is seen as intertwined with residential development (which is true), you can't discount the millions of tourists and conventioneers than visit downtown every year. I remember my wife and I stayed at the Sheraton Gunter a couple of christmases ago for our anniversary. Since we don't drink wine, we were looking for some sparkling grape juice, which none of the downtown markets had. A grocery store would've been a really nice amenity, even though we weren't residents. I know stores like HEB probably have very rigid business models and don't typically take tourists into account, but it would seem SA's visitor population might nudge things closer to that critical mass needed to make it work.

Pretty much what my post said; we can wait and we are use to it. San Antonio actually has more than one grocery store downtown now. They just are not large full scale stores. Do you really think there were no subsidies involved in Kansas City's DT development, Austin's condo boom or F1, they are now routine.

[oldmanshirt]

Of course there were subsidies, at least in the form of tax incentives. Developers have become so conditioned to getting them that most development won't happen without it. But a successful grocery store won't happen without other investments (public and private) happening first, good timing, and a little bit of luck. I'm glad Castro is making this a priority, but I hope it doesn't cause him to lose focus on other, more immediately practical goals.

[Keep-SA-Lame]

Originally Posted by Schertz1

I disagree, San Antonio has more in common with the other major cities than with Laredo. IMO, this is the kind of thinking that holds San Antonio back. We should market the DT grocery store to the low-income! Are you serious? How about market to the people that live there and tourist and if low-income people want to utilize it, all the better. I have a Kroger's 1.5 blocks from my house, which caters to my neighborhood. I buy 90% of my groceries there. The other 10% come from Sam's or Costco, Central Market, or the commissary. I certainly would not drive past a perfectly good store in my neighborhood to buy the same products in River Oaks or any where else.

The only I used the term "low income" is because HEB is best classified as a discount grocer. I want a regular HEB downtown. Not some trendy whole foods crap. Just a regular grocery store that anybody can go to, because it is my firm belief that any downtown grocery store will have to rely on customers from outside the core to be viable.

A store marketed solely to residents of downtown is doomed to fail, because the population of downtown proper is just too small. And even if the store initiated a condo boom, it probably still wouldn't be enough residents to support the store. We need to deal with the reality that in terms of economics San Antonio is very different than the other Texas cities, and the "austin" model or "dallas" model for a DT grocery isn't going to fit. It has to cater to lower income residents to be realistic.

edit: By the way, when I compare SA to Laredo, I'm only talking about the grocery store question, because Laredo's DT HEB is dependent on of out of DT customers, much as I think the SA one would have to be.

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by jaga185

Kornbread, I think you missed the sarcasm at the beginning of my post, especially concerning the Alamodome. I am a firm supporter of tearing that atrocity down, send me to the donation box please.

You're right! Although...

I have to give the city credit for making lemonade out of the dome lemon. There have been some good moments in that building. And, it could have been used even more if the Hamburgler hadn't chased away "futbol" (note: don't listen to Red McCombs ..he gives all his money to UT).

I'm looking forward to seeing the birds play there in 2011 and everyone should go to the Sweet 16 next Spring.

I'd aim for an HEB Pantry, and you really should embrace the lemon. How many venues have opened with a 21 water cannon salute? Now that was awesome.

[maxus]

I'm glad i started this one.

[max7]

Kornbread, where are you from, Austin? YOUR WEIRD! It seems like everything that San Antonio wants in terms of downtown development you disagree with. I support a grocery store with good quality and healthful foods downtown because San Antonio DOES have upscale restaurants already downtown that ARE successful and that do not cater to people who may or may not like just peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on white, glutinous, and fattening bread, but that cater to people who fancy gourmet food, such as myself. Granted, I am still in the middle class, economically. However, even though the proposed grocery store would be downtown away from where I currently live, I still would go shopping to the grocery store even if it were located downtown, or even if it were a little more expensive, because I would want to eat something else every now and then, especially if it catered to niche groups such people who like organic, macrobiotic, gourmet, or whole foods, for example.
In addition, not only would households go there for groceries or provisions, but also hotels and restaurants, of which there are many in downtown San Antonio. They need a downtown grocery store also that is convenient and that sells the type of foods that they need for their professional kitchens.
In my opinion, a downtown grocery store today does make sense for San Antonions.

[miaht82]

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

I think the problem is more gross numbers than incomes.........................
This isn't to say SA needs 17k downtown, just that getting a store is going to be more about timing and real money than mere can-do spirit and government subsidies.

That's why I think we should just use the subsidies to spur up more residential projects. I guarantee that if we add 4-5k more residents in and around the core, a grocery will seem like more than just wishful thinking. That won't be the only thing that will pop up... bars, clubs, restaurants, street retail. Heck, I've seen a 2-story Target and Best Buy pop up in a "low(er) income" neighborhood in the DC metro area just because the density was there (and a metro stop nearby.)

Originally Posted by oldmanshirt

One last thing. While the grocery store is seen as intertwined with residential development (which is true), you can't discount the millions of tourists and conventioneers than visit downtown every year.

...especially true now with all of the suite-type's opening up along Houston St. (Embassy,Home2,etc.) and all of the other extended-stays around DT.

[kornbread]

Originally Posted by max7

Kornbread, where are you from, Austin? YOUR WEIRD! It seems like everything that San Antonio wants in terms of downtown development you disagree with.

You got it all wrong. I only disagree with things that don't make sense (like subsidizing a grocery store or NOT building the at&t center downtown). When the environment is right for a grocery store, one will be willing to locate there.

[Schertz1]

Originally Posted by Keep-SA-Lame

The only I used the term "low income" is because HEB is best classified as a discount grocer. I want a regular HEB downtown. Not some trendy whole foods crap. Just a regular grocery store that anybody can go to, because it is my firm belief that any downtown grocery store will have to rely on customers from outside the core to be viable.

A store marketed solely to residents of downtown is doomed to fail, because the population of downtown proper is just too small. And even if the store initiated a condo boom, it probably still wouldn't be enough residents to support the store. We need to deal with the reality that in terms of economics San Antonio is very different than the other Texas cities, and the "austin" model or "dallas" model for a DT grocery isn't going to fit. It has to cater to lower income residents to be realistic.

edit: By the way, when I compare SA to Laredo, I'm only talking about the grocery store question, because Laredo's DT HEB is dependent on of out of DT customers, much as I think the SA one would have to be.

When you say the Austin model, what do you mean? They may have more condos DT, but from what I read over half are sitting vacant or unfinished - meaning Alteza style unfinished. They do not have many more people DT than we do, yet they have a grocery store. Not near UT, but on the south side of DT near the river. Here in Houston, the grocery store is west of DT in the Midtown area. It is probably three blocks west of I45. My point is, within 2 miles of DT San Antonio, there are full scale HEB stores in all directions, except north. In addition, there are Handy Andy Stores within 2 miles to the west and south of DT. Why will people drive or walk past more conveniently located stores to patronize a DT store, unless it is unique?

When I say our attitude restrains us, I mean we are more concerned with why things will not work, than finding ways to make them work.
It's the attitude that breeds mediocrity.