London International Airport

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

London management agrees, thus this introduction of more than 500 seats a day going direct to other cities not named Toronto. And also, I noticed upthread a comment from someone else about the Montreal daily flight being a Dash-8. That has now been upgraded to a regional jet. True that the timing sucks for people going to Montreal for business, but it's more timed for international departures.

There isn't much London management can do about Toronto operations issues, but by trying to come up with alternative options that bypass Toronto, they are at least trying to satisfy local consumer demand.

The best thing that could happen and I believe it will happen is for Via or the province to establish train service directly from Pearson to other centres (K/W, London, etc.) This will eliminate the need for these smaller flights to London and allow Pearson to maximize profits for larger long haul flights. Pearson already has a plan to build what they call a Union Station 2 at the airport. This certainly won't help London airport numbers, but for me, I would rather get on a train to Pearson then fly or take Robert Q or Greyhound. I took Greyhound last time and they left 30 minutes late and didn't care whatsoever.

[Djeffery]

I certainly don't fly like many others on here do, but I definitely preferred flying from London and already being airside when I got to Toronto, rather than dealing with checking in or security there. But I'm a cheapskate too, so I can rarely justify the cost of flying either from London or Toronto when I can get to Detroit or Buffalo about as easily. But that's also a matter of where I'm going. A US destination, it makes almost zero sense to fly from here or Toronto. I have family in Halifax and a direct flight there is appealing to us (either us going there or them coming here).

I've never had a burning desire to go to Edmonton, but for those cheap flights, I just might. I'm not first hand familiar with Vancouver-area, but if I were to go to there, I'd probably be as likely to go to Toronto and take a flight to YVR rather than London to Abbotsford. Abbotsford I think is like flying to Kitchener to visit Toronto, nice small airport but not very convenient. But money talks too lol.

You can already take VIA to Malton GO and take the bus to Pearson. Of course, the train takes 3 hours to get there. I don't know if that track has a low speed limit or what, but I've been caught by that same train twice on the same morning more times than I care to count (Colborne crossing, and again at Dundas and Hale). I really don't think the province will go ahead with the high speed rail, so I can't see any other viable convenient ground way to get to Pearson.

[MolsonExport]

I definitely preferred flying from London and already being airside when I got to Toronto, rather than dealing with checking in or security there.

Totally agree. Getting to Toronto (which for me almost always means connecting to go overseas), I love checking in London side, as it is a breeze and a nice relaxing experience in Toronto, compared to the rotten experience of security, etc. at Pearson. The problem for me is coming back to London, usually after a very long flight from Asia or Europe, and having to spend another night at some banal airport hotel due to missed connection, cancelled flight, etc. Happens a lot....I would say 50% of my journeys back to London go this way.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Totally agree. Getting to Toronto (which for me almost always means connecting to go overseas), I love checking in London side, as it is a breeze and a nice relaxing experience in Toronto, compared to the rotten experience of security, etc. at Pearson. The problem for me is coming back to London, usually after a very long flight from Asia or Europe, and having to spend another night at some banal airport hotel due to missed connection, cancelled flight, etc. Happens a lot....I would say 50% of my journeys back to London go this way.

I agree, that would be totally frustrating after a long travel day(s). So close yet so far.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I certainly don't fly like many others on here do, but I definitely preferred flying from London and already being airside when I got to Toronto, rather than dealing with checking in or security there.

I totally understand, but I certainly would like the option of flying or taking a train to/from Pearson. I'm not a big fan of navigating Pearson and checking in either, but grabbing a fast train coming home and arriving in downtown London seems pretty appealing to me. Trains don't get weather delayed and they are more comfortable than riding on those little planes into London.

And yes, if the destination is in the US, I rarely fly out of Toronto. Even though Detroit is a bit further drive, the price is usually cheaper and navigating DTW is easy compared to Pearson.

[go_leafs_go02]

Westjet has also upped it's daily flights to Toronto from 2X a day to 3X a day. Does look like frequency to Calgary and Winnipeg will remain lower than before.

[ssiguy]

I'm the same. When flying I always try to get a flight out of Abbottsford as opposed to YVR and the pain of the traffic, huge crowds, and endless lines at security. When I fly Ontario I always try to get a flight to London as opposed to Pearson.

[Dominion301]

Anyone notice the changes to AC YXU-YOW flights for the upcoming summer schedule? The morning DH1 is getting upgauged to a DH3, while the afternoon flight is going to a CRJ!

The return schedule is now really odd with only an afternoon CRJ and evening DH3 flight inbound from YOW.

The DH3’s routing will be YXU-YOW-YFC-YOW(on the ground for 6 hours?)-YXU. Either that DH3 is sitting for a long time at YOW, which makes no sense whatsoever, or a YOW-YUL rotation is getting DH3’d that hasn’t been uploaded yet, or YOW is gaining a new DH3 route. I sure hope that the 1500 and 1940 YOW departure times don’t hurt the route as the YXU departure times are perfect at 0610 and 1740.

[Djeffery]

Air Canada just dropped Air Georgian as a partner and is giving the work to Jazz, so that might explain some of the changing of aircraft around. As well a summer increase in travel. The Montreal flight used to be a DH3 and is now a CRJ too (has been for a little while anyway).

[TheGreatestX]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Westjet has also upped it's daily flights to Toronto from 2X a day to 3X a day. Does look like frequency to Calgary and Winnipeg will remain lower than before.

Isn't Winnipeg cancelled?

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I certainly don't fly like many others on here do, but I definitely preferred flying from London and already being airside when I got to Toronto, rather than dealing with checking in or security there. But I'm a cheapskate too, so I can rarely justify the cost of flying either from London or Toronto when I can get to Detroit or Buffalo about as easily. But that's also a matter of where I'm going. A US destination, it makes almost zero sense to fly from here or Toronto. I have family in Halifax and a direct flight there is appealing to us (either us going there or them coming here).

I've never had a burning desire to go to Edmonton, but for those cheap flights, I just might. I'm not first hand familiar with Vancouver-area, but if I were to go to there, I'd probably be as likely to go to Toronto and take a flight to YVR rather than London to Abbotsford. Abbotsford I think is like flying to Kitchener to visit Toronto, nice small airport but not very convenient. But money talks too lol.

You can already take VIA to Malton GO and take the bus to Pearson. Of course, the train takes 3 hours to get there. I don't know if that track has a low speed limit or what, but I've been caught by that same train twice on the same morning more times than I care to count (Colborne crossing, and again at Dundas and Hale). I really don't think the province will go ahead with the high speed rail, so I can't see any other viable convenient ground way to get to Pearson.

The slow speed likely has a lot to do with the fact that Via trains have to share track with CN/CP Rail and their trains take precedence. Plus, in order to make Via financially and politically feasible (since it receives large taxpayer subsidies) the trains are pretty well forced to do milk runs.

It would be nice to see high speed express trains running from Windsor through London, the K-W Region and Toronto to Montreal and Quebec City, but I doubt I'll ever see such a thing in my lifetime. Part of the problem is that governments are addicted to gasoline taxes and would rather see you drive or take a plane than go by rail.

It would make more sense to have the under-served spots like Stratford and Guelph be connected to the nearest high-speed rail stations by busses or light rail.

Although sooner or later, we are going to have to build that high-speed rail line because Ontario's population is expected to double in 30 years and there simply is no more room to build highways. The 401, 403 and 407 are already overcapacity as they stand.

[JakeLRS]

Air Canada Rouge
slated to enter YXU

Starting June 24, 2019, The folks of London and the surrounding region will now have a second option when travelling to Calgary. ACrouge will begin service to Calgary featuring daily morning departures.

The flight will be on a two class A319 and will run seasonally until mid October.

[MrSlippery519]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...real-1.5033883

Interested to see the price point, London to Montreal with Westjet.

Regardless good to see more options for London

[Djeffery]

Funny that Air Canada comes out with a route that WestJet already serves from London so a few days later, WestJet comes out with one that Air Canada already serves. Way to mix it up guys. I'm sure they will cannibalize enough off of each other that we lose them both, or at the least the Calgary route gets downgraded to Swoop as well.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Funny that Air Canada comes out with a route that WestJet already serves from London so a few days later, WestJet comes out with one that Air Canada already serves. Way to mix it up guys. I'm sure they will cannibalize enough off of each other that we lose them both, or at the least the Calgary route gets downgraded to Swoop as well.

You do have to wonder what drives some of these choices, maybe Westjet is actually being smart and looked at the fact people would fly to Montreal from London however given that AirCanada charges $300+ for a return flight and their non stop travel times are not ideal, if Westjet price it competitively I know I personally would use the service.

Right now I just drive for business, typically 4-6 times a year but I would much rather fly

[Djeffery]

I compared fares last night, and they were the same for the non-stop flights on either airline. AC uses a 50-seat regional jet, WestJet a 70 seat turboprop, so it will be interesting to see what people prefer. The length of flight is almost the same for either aircraft. I think the AC flight time is designed for the European connections that leave in the evening, not sure what WestJet's late morning flight is aimed at. Although it's preferable if I were to go there for leisure, say a game or concert in the evening or weekend away type of thing.

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

...or at the least the Calgary route gets downgraded to Swoop as well.

Don't think any Calgary routes will get "swooped" since this is Westjet's homeland. They don't want to risk losing their reputation by having people connect using a ULCC and at the same time losing business.

I anticipate London-Orlando will get swooped in the winter (YHM had WestJet operate YHM-MCO years prior, it got swooped last year with increased frequency).

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

Don't think any Calgary routes will get "swooped" since this is Westjet's homeland. They don't want to risk losing their reputation by having people connect using a ULCC and at the same time losing business.

I anticipate London-Orlando will get swooped in the winter (YHM had WestJet operate YHM-MCO years prior, it got swooped last year with increased frequency).

Yeah, I don't imagine they would want to. But they are competing with Rouge, not AC as well. But at least Rouge is just a seasonal, and WS used to run 2x a day to Calgary in the summer as well, so hopefully they generate enough for each to be happy.

[TallerIsBetter]

A little off topic and purely speculative (and in line with my stupid level of optimism for what London should have)...

I noted that Westjet has 22 737-700 MAX on order for a few years out. I have no idea what their intention for them is, but we should note that the range for the MAX 700 is just over 7,100 km. So easy, peasy for non-stop to England and NW Europe (i.e. Amsterdam & Paris).

I would be shocked if a daily non-stop from CYYZ to say London and a European destination would not have high load factors pulling from SW Ontario catchment and potential feeder flights, making London a sub-hub so to speak that has appeal with a number of passanger satisfaction factors. The 700 MAX is in the 150 passenger class and the range is there specifically to serve more thin routes directly. This would also appeal to big airports as they face increased slot demands.

If not Westjet, maybe someone else looks at this niche (maybe a Swoop feeding a London mini hub with the overseas flights on Westjet).

Nonstop is Better!!

[Djeffery]

WestJet has been adding the 787 as well, for their international flights. I think that single aisle jets are a hard sell for flights that long, for whatever reason. I used to be pretty active on the Flyertalk forums and would constantly see people on the various airline groups saying "No way am I sitting in a 757 to Europe", and would take the more inconvenient widebody flight over the ocean. Even Air Canada had a regular A319 from St John's to London England, which was barely longer than St John's to Toronto and people preferred flying back to Halifax to go over on a 767 or A330. I once sat in an A320 for 6.5 hours in headwinds going to LA from Detroit, so I don't see the big deal of 7 or 8 hours going to Europe. I mean, I hated being in the plane a couple hours longer than planned but a widebody wasn't going to change that. (The pilots rode our hotel bus and we chatted with them about how long the flight was, and they said it was close, that we almost needed to land for fuel on the way. That would have been hell then lol).

I also think many of those new MAX 700's are to replace 700NG's, many of which are well over 15 years old now.