Joyce-Collingwood Station review

[Spork]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I took the survey and pushed for option 3, for the obvious reason of it providing the most density around a main line transit station.

In the final comments I as well added that the "transition zones" should be increased to more than just 2 blocks from the station, as having SFH a 2 minute walk from a transit station, as even option 3 proposes, is just ridiculous.

Completely agree. I also questioned why the northern street (Wellington) has taller buildings than along some of the other streets, despite the other streets being MFD on both sides of the street. Some of the heights don't make complete sense and seem to be created to try to add some variety rather than follow some sort of transition framework.

Also commented about why they aren't adding a finer street grid, nor including the huge SFH area south of Vanness. It seems woefully inadequate for such a successful area.

On a somewhat separate note, I wonder if the CoV keeps track of the square footage available for construction based upon built vs zoned vs community plan. It would be pretty interesting to see a visualization of where this area is, as well as total values to provide visibility into how much the city is constraining development in aggregate.

[tonyvan]

Just about to move to the area. It would be great if there are even more commercial space in the area. With the addition of WC Central Park and the new proposed densities, the shops on Kingsway seem increasingly insufficient. Maybe the whole segment of Joyce Street between the station and Kingsway should also be rezoned and add more commercial spaces to this segment of Joyce.

[logan5]

There are a few sites where density could be added along Kingway, the large Safeway site for example. But for the most part I would leave that part of Kingsway intact. That strip of retail will (I hope) eventually evolve into something similar to Main St. or Commercial Dr.

[officedweller]

Despite the hill, I could see retail storefronts from the station up to Kingsway being a good evolution for the area.

[tonyvan]

Originally Posted by logan5

There are a few sites where density could be added along Kingway, the large Safeway site for example. But for the most part I would leave that part of Kingsway intact. That strip of retail will (I hope) eventually evolve into something similar to Main St. or Commercial Dr.

I would spare the parking lot for now. There are a few seriously rundown buildings that need to be redeveloped first...

[twism]

Collingwood neighborhood house is having another open house to discus the plan for this area.

Wednesday, February 3, 5:00pm to 8:00pm
Saturday, February 6, 11:00am to 2:00pm

St. Marys church is hoping to lease out their land on Joyce & Vaness for two towers in order to fund the rebuilding of their private school. Hopefully this area finally gets the attention it deserves.

[jlousa]

I'm heading over to the open house tonight, might stop by on Saturday as well. Anyone game to meet up?

[Spork]

I went earlier today to the station review. There were a few students protesting the increase in density, protesting that it needs more social housing. What a sad city we live in when students protest for an extreme form of affordability, rather than for what they SHOULD be able to afford - non-social, market housing.

The plan is pathetic. In such a successful densification (indeed, one of the most dense census tracts in the city), why is the city going so small? I believe that the densification amounts to something like 5-6 new towers, varying from like 20-29 storeys.

The densification on the West side of Vanness is woefully inadequate, with just 6 storey buildings planned to Rupert - why not densify to the same level as that which has occurred to the East side of Vanness? Particularly as the current plan calls for 4-storey buildings along there already - will two more storeys really incentivize a developer to build there?

The review area is, IMO, one block too small both North and South.

They didn't have numbers for how much incremental housing this will allow, but this plan is a HUGE miss, IMO. Once the low incremental density gets redeveloped, it will be another 30 years or so until a new plan will allow for the density that the area requires. Completely shortsighted, small thinking on the part of the city.

Anybody can review the plans and complete a survey about them on talkvancouver.com. Please go and voice your feedback (but only if you agree with me ).

[Waders]

Correct link is Talk Vancouver

[quobobo]

Crap, sorry jlousa - I was at the Wednesday open house, didn't see this until now.

I talked to a few people, some were supportive and some were (as expected) very opposed. When I left, those "Joyce Area Residents" organizers were trying to talk an old Chinese guy who just wanted to sell his house out of supporting the rezoning.

Agreed with Spork that this isn't nearly enough, but at least it's an improvement on the status quo.

[Millennium2002]

The whole Expo Line corridor needs a review, frankly. The sections in Vancouver and Surrey are notorious for all the seedy elements that they attract... and a lot of this has to do with the lack of investment that people are willing to put forward or let through in their communities.

[jlousa]

I agree with some of the above points but stop short of thinking the proposed plan is a failure. I think it's pretty well thought out and will make a huge difference. It might only be adding a half dozen towers, but as you alluded to it's already the densest census tract in the whole city by a good margin, and that was before the monster development Wall currently has under construction. This plan allows for an additional 3000 residents and is nothing to sneeze at.
I would've likes to see the area slightly expanded and for the density to drop more gradually then it does in the plan . I stated so much in my comments, but I understand the decisions behind the current plan. Think this plan once approved will see shovels in the ground pretty quickly.

[Spork]

Sure, the plan will make a difference, but so will rezoning for the one rental tower proposed beside the station. Is it enough of a difference? Hardly.

The area grew by 10,000 people since the last plan was produced, over the course of 25 years (1986-2011). Assuming that the current plan is to last the same 30 years, this will amount to 30% of the growth over the same time period. There is no way that the area couldn't handle more density to add another 10,000 over the same period of time. Unless the city expects to revisit the plan every 10 years, the current opportunity for growth is bowing to NIMBYs.

[jlousa]

The area can't continue to grow at previous rates indefinitely... A good chunk of the area is already built out. The 3000 additional units is on top of the units that will be displaced. Remember the old growth was mostly done without displacement and was industrial land. These new units will be mostly over already heavily populated areas.

[Spork]

Reminds me of the people that say "Vancouver is full! No more immigrants!". There is lots of space. It can completely support the same level of growth indefinitely by growing outwards. Why would we stifle a completely successful, multi-ethnic, family-oriented, high density community, with parks, transit, and local shopping.

Census tract 9330016.05 has a density of 39,951/sq.km.

Census tract 9330017.02 has a density of 7,640/sq.km, 9330016.04 has a density of 7,774/sq.km, and 9330016.06 has a density of 9,130/sq.km. Lots of space.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

The whole Expo Line corridor needs a review, frankly.

Agree.

[Waders]

Something to think about.

Vancouver high-rises: Are they the future of the city?

But Oliver Lang, an architect with the Lang Wilson Practice in Architecture Culture Corporation, argues that the city is indeed too reliant on towers.

"Our argument is for a broad range of mid-rise buildings anywhere from infill to 15-storey buildings that can create tremendous density but at the same time produce huge advantages to produce diversity," he said.

"We do not build our city any longer for people. We build our city to deal with big political pressure, to accommodate people, but we accommodate them in cell-like structures. We've lost our focus to think about the combination of livability, affordability and sustainability."

[Spork]

The city does not only need towers, I agree. But if we decide that we want to go with mid-rises, we need to rezone more land in order to house the same amount of people. This is basic math. The plan in this case, neither zones a small area for a moderate number of towers, nor zones a medium area for a medium number of mid-rises. Instead, it sprinkles a bit of each in a small area. Insufficient.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The area can't continue to grow at previous rates indefinitely... A good chunk of the area is already built out. The 3000 additional units is on top of the units that will be displaced. Remember the old growth was mostly done without displacement and was industrial land. These new units will be mostly over already heavily populated areas.

You are talking about numbers as if they are etched in stone and cannot be altered. The Joyce-Collingwood neighbourhood can allow higher densities if the City has the desire. Nothing is stopping metrotown to achieve its current density and vibrancy, so a couple of skytrain stops away in Vancouver, things shouldn't be any different.

Originally Posted by Spork

The city does not only need towers, I agree. But if we decide that we want to go with mid-rises, we need to rezone more land in order to house the same amount of people. This is basic math. The plan in this case, neither zones a small area for a moderate number of towers, nor zones a medium area for a medium number of mid-rises. Instead, it sprinkles a bit of each in a small area. Insufficient.

Yes, definitely insufficient.

[jlousa]

You do realize that the Joyce area is denser then Metrotown right even after all their towers complete... Even if taken as a whole Joyce/Collingwood today is denser then a good chuck of downtown. After the upzoning it'll carry it's own.
You should've shown up to the openhouses and voiced your gospel to city staff instead of your constant rambling on here.