Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[milomilo]

You have no evidence for that. We've been through this before, but there is zero justification for needing a 401 capacity (400,000 vehicles/day) freeway on that route. Especially considering we have the ability to plan around it.

They never planned on building that inner road, and they never will.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

You have no evidence for that. We've been through this before, but there is zero justification for needing a 401 capacity (400,000 vehicles/day) freeway on that route. Especially considering we have the ability to plan around it.

They never planned on building that inner road, and they never will.

No evidence? I went to more than enough open houses where this was shown to be the case and the government posted a lot of documents to indicate that this was the plan for the future. Just because you think there's no need doesn't mean that's what they think.

What makes you think they're planning for 400K capacity. The 401 is grossly overcapacity. Just because it has XX lanes doesn't mean that it was designed for that volume of traffic or that any road with that number of lanes is. That's like claiming a six lane road can handle 180K/day because Deerfoot "does." You're dead wrong if you think that what they're planning now will also be able to handle TCH volume as well.

[milomilo]

?

We've been through this. The claimed justification for the inner lanes is future proofing for a make believe 'outer ring road', except there is nothing in the public domain available that shows any plan for that, and the now previous transport minister also stated there are no plans for outer ring roads.

Even so, the road to be built will be plenty of capacity for the foreseeable future. I mentioned the 401 because that is the size of road that they have built for, yet it is absurd to think that we will need that much capacity ever. It's doubtful we'll need even half the capacity of Deerfoot.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

?

We've been through this. The claimed justification for the inner lanes is future proofing for a make believe 'outer ring road', except there is nothing in the public domain available that shows any plan for that, and the now previous transport minister also stated there are no plans for outer ring roads.

Even so, the road to be built will be plenty of capacity for the foreseeable future. I mentioned the 401 because that is the size of road that they have built for, yet it is absurd to think that we will need that much capacity ever. It's doubtful we'll need even half the capacity of Deerfoot.

Just because the NDP abandoned the plans doesn't mean they didn't exist. They did and do. This is from when Mason stupidly let ideology dictate policy. Thank God this extra work is well into the future and doesn't depend on what the NDP thinks is going to happen.

__________________

Mason said the eight extra lanes were originally meant to tie into a since-abandoned outer ring road, which had been on the books many years before then-transportation minister Ric McIver inked the freeway deal with Tsuut’ina chief Roy Whitney in November 2013.

That pact provided the First Nation with $341 million in total compensation and 2,030 hectares of land in exchange for 428 hectares for the road’s right-of way.

But Mason said he doubts those additional lanes will be needed due to evolving transportation technology.

“A 16-lane ring road is not going to be part of the future of transportation,” he said.

Source: https://calgaryherald.com/news/polit...-fulfilling-it
_______________________________________________________

You think they'll only need half the capacity of Deerfoot? Complete nonsense just like Mason thinking that 16 lane roads won't be part of the future. In 2003 the Katy Freeway (I-10) had 11 lanes in total and a capacity of 79K at Wirt Road. Clearly Deerfoot needs way more lanes and if TxDOT was building our freeways it would. What's being built now for the SW part of 201 would not be considered excessive at all. We need to stop planning and building third-world standard roads and get our act together so we can attract top companies. Our overall transportation system sucks. In order to improve it we first need to stop with the "we'll never this" and the "it's good enough" attitude that some here have.

[milomilo]

The NDP not continuing with imaginary plans was not ideology, it was fiscal responsibility and just admitting that no plans existed. Since the new government value efficient governance, I see no reason for them to make this imaginary road a reality.

Should we make every road a 16 lane road? There is no conceivable way that the SWRR will require that sort of capacity, but if it is the case that you think it does, what about every single other road except Highway 2 north of Leduc? Many of them will have greater volumes of traffic, yet they weren't designed for 16 lanes. What is so special about the SWRR?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The NDP not continuing with imaginary plans was not ideology, it was fiscal responsibility and just admitting that no plans existed. Since the new government value efficient governance, I see no reason for them to make this imaginary road a reality.

Should we make every road a 16 lane road? There is no conceivable way that the SWRR will require that sort of capacity, but if it is the case that you think it does, what about every single other road except Highway 2 north of Leduc? Many of them will have greater volumes of traffic, yet they weren't designed for 16 lanes. What is so special about the SWRR?

Why do you keep saying there were/are no plans when I just gave you a link that proves otherwise? From what I remember the road would have went along Highway 560 (?) in the north and gone west of the Tsuu'tina's and then swung back toward where Highway 8, etc. all meet up and then gone south along the current route being built to a point fairly south of Calgary and then around to a point east of Calgary. I don't remember the highway numbers but there were definitely maps showing where they thought it might go. Since they didn't think it would be needed until 2050 the exact route was subject to change. What wasn't subject to change was getting enough land in place now when they made the deal with Tsuu'tina. I hope you're not saying that they should have been stupid enough to not buy up extra land to expand the road. 5-Seconds probably has materials archived away that will provide more details. Hopefully once the government stops fucking with their website all of the supporting materials will reappear.

[ST1]

These images are not showing Can you try hosting them on a different site?

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Bridge girders going up quickly at Sarcee and Glenmore.

[Wyku]

Thanks for the photo updates! Always nice to see the progress being made.

[Dengler Avenue]

very nice to see the project going forward

[Deepstar]

Originally Posted by ST1

These images are not showing Can you try hosting them on a different site?

It's because they're hosted on Twitter. I have the same issue, as my company's firewall security doesn't allow Twitter pics through. I'm not sure why anyone posts pics on forums that are hosted on Imageshack or Twitter.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Bridge going up at Sarcee and Glenmore:

Where were you standing when you took this photo?

This has nothing to do with the photos you posted but the area in general. If you're going south on Sarcee as it turns into EB Glenmore there's a bridge pier directly to the south that has a large "40" sign on it. I'm guessing they number the piers like they do the bridges but I've never seen one with a sign on it. At least a sign so big that it's visible from a distance. Has anyone else seen this before?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Why do you keep saying there were/are no plans when I just gave you a link that proves otherwise? From what I remember the road would have went along Highway 560 (?) in the north and gone west of the Tsuu'tina's and then swung back toward where Highway 8, etc. all meet up and then gone south along the current route being built to a point fairly south of Calgary and then around to a point east of Calgary. I don't remember the highway numbers but there were definitely maps showing where they thought it might go. Since they didn't think it would be needed until 2050 the exact route was subject to change. What wasn't subject to change was getting enough land in place now when they made the deal with Tsuu'tina. I hope you're not saying that they should have been stupid enough to not buy up extra land to expand the road. 5-Seconds probably has materials archived away that will provide more details. Hopefully once the government stops fucking with their website all of the supporting materials will reappear.

There were no publically available proper plans, that article proves my point. You all spent a long time trying to prove there were, but nothing ever came up, just a handful of references to an outer ring road. I spent a lot of time looking for something conclusive too, which is why I am so confident there is none.

You are so critical of our governments in other threads, I really don't understand why you think they would be incapable of making a mistake on this matter. But they did make a mistake, and wasted a lot of money because of it.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There were no publically available proper plans, that article proves my point. You all spent a long time trying to prove there were, but nothing ever came up, just a handful of references to an outer ring road. I spent a lot of time looking for something conclusive too, which is why I am so confident there is none.

You are so critical of our governments in other threads, I really don't understand why you think they would be incapable of making a mistake on this matter. But they did make a mistake, and wasted a lot of money because of it.

FFS, are you kidding me? You're being as bad as Suburbia now. How many people have to tell you that there were plans before you finally admit that fact? Or are you going to keep shifting the goalposts because you don't want to admit you're wrong?

No, the government did not make a mistake. Thinking additional capacity will never be needed in the area would have been a colossal blunder. They had one chance to acquire enough land and to plan the existing road to be able to handle future needs. They did the right thing.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Acey

Let's just stop throwing around these kind of statements without any factual basis. Not to dismantle your argument, but volume on Stoney at Beddington already exceeds the capacity of Deerfoot. Deerfoot is more than 2x over-capacity and carries 170k north of Memorial.

There is no argument any more, the matter is settled.

Originally Posted by Acey

I expect SW Stoney to open in the vicinity of 40k, as the SE did, which is half of Deerfoot capacity.

The central portion of Deerfoot may have a design capacity of 80,000, yet it still carries double that and life goes on. If our goal is to ensure that all roads always travel the speed limit, then we will never be able to build enough roads.

But regardless, SWRR will be an 8 lane road of higher quality than Deerfoot, so should easily be able to carry as many or more vehicles than Deerfoot. And yet, it will likely always carry fewer vehicles than Deerfoot and will probably be one of the lesser used portions of the ring road. So if it was justified to build 16 lanes here, why did we not build 16 lanes on the other portions?

Originally Posted by Acey

To clarify, on opening day, SW Stoney will be in the vicinity of a volume you think it will never reach until jet cars or whatever. All of these numbers are easily available. It kinda nukes your credibility in the capacity vs potential volume arguments and your whole "this is inconceivable" mantra when you're so far off base on the traffic that's already in the city. You've committed your life to thinking there were never plans for a C/D on SW Stoney which is fine (and incorrect), but it's causing you to say irrational shit.

You have no evidence there was a credible plan, so I am not incorrect. I concede, it's possible that there is a secret plan made that was never released publically, but neither of us have ever seen that.

Originally Posted by Acey

Earlier, when I argued with you about this same bullshit, you at least conceded that at some point there were plans for an outer ring. Now your stance has shifted from debating the merit of those plans to a fantasyland in which the massive median was, and always has been, for literally no purpose whatsoever. Makes sense... despite your lord and saviour Mason saying the exact opposite.

The extent of the 'plan' was simply 'we should build the SWRR with space for an outer ring road because we are going to build an outer ring road'. That's it. If you think that 'plan' is a good enough reason to spend millions, I'm glad you are not in a position to be spending public money.

Originally Posted by Acey

Where's the source saying the 401 is a capacity of 400k? It breaks down at a value far less than that. The capacity is obviously not 400k.

Given the design of SW Stoney, the sequence of events is obvious. An inner and outer ring were planned in the same ROW. An outer ring was abandoned. The inner ring plans were not subsequently modified. That leaves 2 things to be debated: if we ever needed an outer ring, and if the inner ring should have been subsequently modified. This is what Alberta Transportation has already said. The evidence you claim to be unable to find is presented to you in spades.

Carry on.

There is no evidence of a full plan, definitely not spades worth - only a handful of vague references to an outer ring road, but nothing that put it together. You spent a lot of time trying to find some, but never did. I'm sorry you are upset about this, but the facts speak for themselves. Alberta Transport fucked up on this one, and no one has given them the scrutiny they deserve. That money could have been spend on better things.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

FFS, are you kidding me? You're being as bad as Suburbia now. How many people have to tell you that there were plans before you finally admit that fact? Or are you going to keep shifting the goalposts because you don't want to admit you're wrong?

No, the government did not make a mistake. Thinking additional capacity will never be needed in the area would have been a colossal blunder. They had one chance to acquire enough land and to plan the existing road to be able to handle future needs. They did the right thing.

There are no plans. Show me if you think there are, but I cannot prove a negative.

Acquiring the extra land is one thing, although still probably useless for a road, but actually building the road with huge overpasses which will never be used is another.

[milomilo]

BTW, from the minister's assistant, unless you think she is lying:

Thank you for your August 16, 2017 email regarding the Southwest Calgary Ring Road and the Government of Alberta’s approach to outer ring roads. As the Ministerial Assistant to Honourable Brian Mason, Minister of Transportation, I am able to provide the following information.



Conceptual planning for outer ring roads around Edmonton and Calgary occurred in the early 2000s and was halted in 2012.



The area southwest of Calgary is mostly developed within the city limits; therefore, land was required from the Tsuut’ina Nation for the initial build of Southwest Calgary Ring Road, and any other capacity improvements that may be required in the future. At this time, the long-term configuration of the transportation corridor through this area is not yet determined, but the lanes currently being constructed allow for the future addition of transportation options, including transit and active transportation.



In comparing freeway construction costs, the increased cost of a collector/distributor freeway is generally due to building longer bridges than initially needed, in order to accommodate future expansion. Constructing longer bridges involves higher initial costs, but is a cost-effective strategy when future expansion is anticipated, as these bridges do not need to be lengthened when the freeway is expanded. This approach also minimizes future traffic disruptions during any expansion work.



If you have any further questions, please contact Michal Pylko, Director of Highway and Roadside Planning. Mr. Pylko can be reached toll-free at 310-0000, then 780‑984‑2916, or at michal.pylko@gov.ab.ca.



Thank you for taking the time to write. I hope this information is helpful.



Sincerely,



Jennifer D. Burgess

Ministerial Assistant

'Conceptual planning' occurred, but was abandoned before the ring road started construction. If you think an abandoned conceptual plan is good enough reason, then fine. But I prefer our money is better than that.

[milomilo]

Was that 'plan' ever much more than an idea though? If we were contemplating spending money on something then you would hope they had something as simple as a map or set of roads they planned on upgrading, and projected usage. If it didn't have that, I wouldn't really call it a plan.

Regardless, at the time the road was approved, they had officially dropped the plan. So they half built a road they had no plans on using. Why is it only me who thinks that isn't acceptable?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Here's what happened: Between the early 2000s to 2012, which encompassed the functional planning phase of the SW Ring Road, the Province was semi-actively planning for the long-term implementation of an outer ring road. I was told that it was on a 75+ year timeline.

In 2013 the negotiations with the Nation were finalized. Around 2015, with a looming deadline, the Province pressed ahead with a design for the SW Ring Road that included room for an outer ring road. At the time that the contract was awarded and the construction began, the outer ring road concept had officially been discarded.

So, was the SW Ring Road built with space to accommodate a road that was no longer part of the Province's plans when construction began? Yes. Did the Province at one time plan for an outer ring road? Also yes. Did the outer ring road ever reach the functional planning stage? No. Does that mean the road was never planned, Also no.

In the later part of the 2000-2012 time frame I had a number of officials tell me they thought the road would be needed around 2050 or around a population of 2.1 million. No idea if they meant metro population or if they meant the road needed to be done by then or started. Anyway, it would be very irresponsible if they had started doing functional planning nearly 40 years ahead of time. Milo claiming that they weren't serious because they didn't have a shovel ready plan in place is ridiculous.

As for when the road was discarded, did that not happen after the NDP took office? To me abandoning conceptual planning is not equivalent to scrapping the project entirely.

The email Milo posted also talks about expansion and collector-distributor roads. The plans Alberta Transportation engineers developed are in no way overkill. Mason likely knows that but was catering to his base and also trying to appease the radicals in the area who wanted the road shrunk out of existence in the area. I'm convinced this road will be built in the future. The route outside of the area of discussion might be different but we'll end up a major freeway serving the purpose envisioned ages ago.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

What information are you basing this on? Especially the bold portion.

Speculation. Which is all any of us can do. We have a general idea of what the population and travel destinations look like now and in the future. The bulk of the population is to the north of Calgary and the bulk of traffic will be either crossing E-W or going north. There isn't going to be a whole lot going S-W, and much to the west is undevelopable.

Now, if they move the TCH to the south or things change drastically otherwise then that might change. But enough that we need 16 lanes of traffic? I'd at least like some back of napkin estimates from the province, but we don't even have that.

Originally Posted by 5seconds

The plan in fact would have had about 16 lanes in all 4 quadrants, the difference is that in the SW all 16 lanes would have been constricted into the single Tsuut'ina Nation corridor while in the other 3 quadrants the lanes would have been spread out between 2 different roads. Outside of the Tsuut'ina corridor, the two ring roads (The current Ring Road and the Outer Ring Road) are separate.

For instance, in the SE there would have been the 8 lanes of Stoney, and 8 lanes, much further away, in the Outer Ring Road. The only reason that the SW leg would have carried 16 lanes is because there was nowhere to put an outer ring road except to combine it with the current ring road through the same corridor.

Are there actually numbers to justify building 16 lanes in the SW though? Why could they not have just run normal 8 or 10 lane road there, why did it have to be C/D? If one of the other quadrants had higher projected usage, why would that quadrant not get C/D? We don't know the answers to these questions, and as far as we know the province never did either.

I'd be a lot less annoyed about this if there were any numbers or anything to justify this, but there is nothing.

[milomilo]

'Conceptual planning' is not the same as having a proper plan, it could be little more than a high level idea. I've got conceptual plans to own a Ferrari, but I'm not going to build a garage for one.