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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Vorkuta View Post
It sounds like maybe "duds not landing on anyone's house" is more important now.
They're normally launched over the sea, I don't ever recall anything landing on anyone's house due to a mishap at launch (craft re-entering the atmosphere on their way back is another matter), but maybe someone will prove me wrong.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 1:50 PM
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Sounds cool but, what exactly does it mean? Afterall, it's just a remote site to launch rockets. What does my handshake create?
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
Sounds cool but, what exactly does it mean? Afterall, it's just a remote site to launch rockets.
Well, it means that Canada will finally have a launch facility on our own native soil.

It will mean a couple of hundred well paying jobs in rural NS, and in the most economically depressed and rapidly depopulation county in the entire province to boot.

It could mean a bit of a tourism industry, especially if they get up to 8-10 launches per year like they want

It might mean new opportunities for the CSA, especially if they eventually choose to partner with this facility. Canada launches a lot of satellites, mostly private communications satellites, but some are scientific ones sponsored by the CSA. It would be good for the space agency to partner with this facility so that it could develop internal expertise in rocket launching capability.

Right now the CSA just collaborates with other agencies (notably NASA) with a focus on robotics, and in turn gets a chance to send an astronaut into space every couple of years. This is nifty, but it would be nice if the CSA mandate were expanded to include all aspects of rocketry, and the ability to deploy it's own satellites via a domestic launch facility.
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Vorkuta View Post
I was under the impression rocket launch sites "prefer" to be near the equator... saves fuel. That might not be as much as a consideration anymore, considering advancing, cheaper tech. It sounds like maybe "duds not landing on anyone's house" is more important now.

No, that is still correct. It's simply physics that dictates that a launch site closer to the equator will require less energy to put something into orbit. Obviously modern rocket technology can help overcome that issue, but it's why the sites are generally located as far south as possible.

Here's a very simplified explanation: http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/proj...m-equator.html
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Vorkuta View Post
I was under the impression rocket launch sites "prefer" to be near the equator... saves fuel. That might not be as much as a consideration anymore, considering advancing, cheaper tech. It sounds like maybe "duds not landing on anyone's house" is more important now.
Yes, because the earth's circumferential rotational speed at the equator is greatest and it decreases as we go towards the North Pole (it is zero at the North Pole, but still rotates once every 24 hours). Rockets launch towards the east to take advantage of the earth's rotational speed which rotates eastwards; this is why it wouldn't make sense to launch on the west coast since it would launch over land).

Many rockets have launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida which is at a latitude of 28.5 degrees. Canso, NS is at 45.2 degrees, so the earth's circumferential speed is less at Canso. However, the following article gives the energy/Kg to get into orbit - https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/w...gy-660x510.jpg and I pasted an image from this source below. In reality there isn't a big difference in energy/Kg between a place on the equation and Canso, NS. (assuming that the referenced source is correct)

For anyone who is interested, the circumferential speed of the earth at the equator is 1670 km/hr, it is 1180 km/hr at 45 degrees latitude (close to Canso, NS) and 0 km/hr at the North Pole. The formula is 1670 km/hr*cos(latitude) - https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html

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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Well, it means that Canada will finally have a launch facility on our own native soil.

It will mean a couple of hundred well paying jobs in rural NS, and in the most economically depressed and rapidly depopulation county in the entire province to boot.

It could mean a bit of a tourism industry, especially if they get up to 8-10 launches per year like they want

It might mean new opportunities for the CSA, especially if they eventually choose to partner with this facility. Canada launches a lot of satellites, mostly private communications satellites, but some are scientific ones sponsored by the CSA. It would be good for the space agency to partner with this facility so that it could develop internal expertise in rocket launching capability.

Right now the CSA just collaborates with other agencies (notably NASA) with a focus on robotics, and in turn gets a chance to send an astronaut into space every couple of years. This is nifty, but it would be nice if the CSA mandate were expanded to include all aspects of rocketry, and the ability to deploy it's own satellites via a domestic launch facility.
It's possibly a great resource for Canadian communication companies and will create a number of highly skilled jobs but, an accessible domestic facility hasn't prevented CSA from expanding their operations. I'm also concerned on CSA feeling obliged to use the private facility over possible cheaper international options and the willingness of so many forumers to give the company a blank cheque. There's a very good chance this will fail badly.
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 2:33 PM
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Of course, but I would imagine that other factors could potentially make up for Canso's more northerly location -- at least, at first sight: 1) essentially free land for the launch site, 2) lower local wages for any job that isn't highly technical, 3) competitive Canadian corporate tax rates, and maybe even 4) incentives.

Energy cost to launch is just one cost among others.
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 3:54 PM
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It all depends on the type of orbits you are looking at.

For Geosynchronous or Equatorial sats, you want to launch as close to the equator as possible to save fuel on having to move them upstairs.

For Polar and other orbits, the equator launch site isn't as important; you still have to move them once they get up there, and the 45 Lat location may mean you don't have to move as much.

Keep in mind, the Russian launch site, the Baikonur Cosmodrome, is also around 45 degrees Lat.

On an earlier Nova Scotia Space Port announcement, (from another company that seems to have fallen through), one of the reasons they wanted the Cape Breton location was so they could more easily launch resupply missions to the ISS. The ISS orbit is set up so the Russians can more easily launch to it, and the American companies were looking for a similar latitude launch site to do their own resupplies easier.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Yes, because the earth's circumferential rotational speed at the equator is greatest and it decreases as we go towards the North Pole (it is zero at the North Pole, but still rotates once every 24 hours). Rockets launch towards the east to take advantage of the earth's rotational speed which rotates eastwards; this is why it wouldn't make sense to launch on the west coast since it would launch over land).

Many rockets have launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida which is at a latitude of 28.5 degrees. Canso, NS is at 45.2 degrees, so the earth's circumferential speed is less at Canso. However, the following article gives the energy/Kg to get into orbit - https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/w...gy-660x510.jpg and I pasted an image from this source below. In reality there isn't a big difference in energy/Kg between a place on the equation and Canso, NS. (assuming that the referenced source is correct)

For anyone who is interested, the circumferential speed of the earth at the equator is 1670 km/hr, it is 1180 km/hr at 45 degrees latitude (close to Canso, NS) and 0 km/hr at the North Pole. The formula is 1670 km/hr*cos(latitude) - https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html
But if they're going for circumpolar orbits, isn't there an energy savings being further north because you don't have to counteract the extra circumferential speed that you'd pick up from launches from closer to the equator?
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Well, it means that Canada will finally have a launch facility on our own native soil.

It could mean a bit of a tourism industry, especially if they get up to 8-10 launches per year like they want
Whaddya mean finally?

Fort Churchill is a rocket launching complex located in Churchill, Manitoba. The site has been used on and off since the mid-1950s for sub-orbital launches of various sounding rockets for several studies.

The complex was first built in 1954 by the Canadian Army to study the effects of auroras on long distance communications. The site was reopened again in August 1959 by the US Army as part of its network of sounding rocket stations. In September 1959 it was used to test CARDE's new solid fuel propellant systems with PVT-1, the vehicle that would evolve into the Black Brant.

The US Army ended its involvement at Fort Churchill in June 1970, and the site was taken over by the Canadian National Research Council to support the Canadian Upper Atmosphere Research Program. The site was used sporadically during the 1970s and 1980s, and was inactive by 1990.


There have been about 3500 launches at this site
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 7:23 PM
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The key word there is "suborbital."

That means it doesn't count.
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
But if they're going for circumpolar orbits, isn't there an energy savings being further north because you don't have to counteract the extra circumferential speed that you'd pick up from launches from closer to the equator?
Sounds plausible, but we need a rocket scientist to say for sure; or maybe a rocket scientist, a powerful computer and a good simulation program . This is just my opinion, but it is quite possible that the cost of ground transportation to the missile launch site might cost more than the rocket's course correction.

I think Canso, NS was picked because it is a fairly isolated location on the Atlantic ocean, and the Federal government likes to help with upstart companies down there. There are always companies looking for Federal contributions to one scheme or another. Thirty years ago there was a scheme to use a supercomputer for "star wars" (advanced weapons research). I actually had an interview and was told by the company that they would hire me; after months of waiting I gave up and moved to Ontario. (the "new" supercomputer that they eventually bought with government contributions turned out to be a "used" supercomputer)
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That'd be cool

Though maybe it will slightly hurt the FL Space Coast (which has really been booming these past few years -- property prices and rents both going through the roof), so the selfish side of me would probably want to root for this initiative to fail.

For the record, I've been a big fan of anything space-related since I was a little toddler.

SpaceX launched something two days ago, on Sat evening, I didn't know about it in advance but I was nearby and it was obviously a rocket (didn't explode this time, though). I imagine this would also bring, in addition to jobs, some tourism as well to this area of NS. I do know that here, it is one of the area's "attractions", no reason why NS couldn't do the same.

OneWeb Breaks Ground on a Florida Factory That Will Build Thousands of Satellites
By Caleb Henry, Space News | March 18, 2017 08:00am ET

WASHINGTON — OneWeb Satellites, the joint venture between rising satellite operator OneWeb and manufacturing giant Airbus, broke ground March 16 on a dedicated factory that will build thousands of OneWeb satellites instead of the hundreds originally envisioned.

OneWeb Satellites Chief Executive Brian Holz said the $85 million Exploration Park, Florida, facility — which is scheduled to open a year from now — will go above and beyond the initial 900-satellite contract OneWeb placed in January last year.

"We'll produce over 2,000 satellites largely to be flown in LEO, low-Earth orbit, to be a key kingpin in that architecture," Holz said during the ceremony. "That's going to allow us the foundation, with new automation techniques, to lower the cost of satellite delivery, and also shorten the schedules for our customer and create value that is not in the industry today."

Read More:
http://www.space.com/36102-oneweb-br...e-factory.html

There!

Now Florida has Work and Maybe some of these "THOUSANDS"
of satellites can be Launched from N.S. a win -win.


By the Way the Rocket Company will foot the entire bill out of pocket and want to purchase a 20year land lease.
They ask for no Gov't handouts.
This deal is great for taxpayers!.


They spend $145 million to build it and recoup the costs at $45 million per launch...gravy train.
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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 9:35 PM
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The eastern end of NS is the land of unusual schemes like this. There are also plans for things like an LNG terminal (Goldboro) and container terminal. A while back there was a story about how a large Buddhist sect would locate there. I assume most plans like this have a low chance of success but the area is so sparsely populated that even one new employer with a few hundred jobs would make a big difference.

Guysborough is arguably a "naturally" poor part of NS. It is mostly rocky land and small fishing communities. It never really industrialized like the rest of the province, and it is far away from urban population centres. Western NS is similar. Guysborough had a small gold rush in the 19th century but that never turned into long-term development.

Guysborough only has about 2 people per square kilometre, while rural Kings County is around 30 per square kilometre.
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2017, 10:54 PM
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Here is the Press release from the horses mouth.

I also realise there is an old saying about never look a gift horse...

Decide for yourselves.

Quote:
Press Release
March 14th, 2017 Halifax, NS – Dnipro, Ukraine
Commercial Space Launch Complex Site Selection Completed
Maritime Launch Services (MLS) Ltd., established in Halifax, is pleased to announce it has committed
to a launch site location following a study of prospective sites across North America. An exhaustive
review was conducted which assessed 14 potential locations over the last year. The preferred site is
located in the Guysborough Municipality near Canso and Hazel Hill in Nova Scotia, Canada and
would host a commercial launch complex for the Cyclone 4M orbital launch vehicle from Ukraine.
The criteria evaluated through the study included access to polar/sun synchronous orbit, very low
population density, proximity to multimodal transportation, and interest from the community, province
and government.
Vernon Pitts, Warden of the Municipality of Guysborough said, “We are pleased that Maritime
Launch Services has chosen to invest in our community and we look forward to continued dialogue.
Since we were first introduced to this development a few months ago we have been impressed with the
proponents’ approach, and we will continue to work collaboratively with MLS as the project evolves.”
Recent site visits and meetings in Nova Scotia and Ottawa, Ontario by a delegation from MLS and
Yuzhnoye were decisive in the final site selection in large part due to the enthusiastic support from the
community, academia and multiple levels of provincial and federal government. John Isella, CEO of
MLS, said “While we have a number of challenges ahead to work through the regulatory processes,
approvals and site planning, we are optimistic that we can break ground on the launch complex within
a year and meet market demands with our first launch in 2020.” MLS plans to achieve a launch rate of
eight per year by 2022.
With the growing global demand for space launch services, MLS will bring the mature space launch
technology of Yuzhnoye and Yuzhmash in Ukraine to Nova Scotia. “Building on the historically close
ties between Canada and Ukraine, and addressing the satellite constellation launch market with an all
Ukrainian medium class (3350kg to SSO) launch service targeted at $45 million USD, are a few of
the fundamental strengths of this program,” Isella said. “The timing is perfect for this venture.
Ukraine’s independent space industry, and the solid market for these launch services all add to our
confidence in this program. The Cyclone 4M rocket will become the standard of the medium class
space launch industry.” Yuzhnoye and Yuzhmash in Ukraine, the providers of the launch vehicle, have
been in operation for 62 years, launched 875 rockets, and built and launched over 400 spacecraft.
Initial funding was obtained in 2016 from United PARADYNE Corporation (UPC) in Santa Maria,
CA. Mr. Joe Hasay, President/CEO of UPC, said “This program is just what UPC has been seeking in
order to expand into commercial space launch operations.” UPC is a founding partner in MLS, and
will bring extensive experience to launch site operations and satellite customer support.
Points of contact:
Sales and Marketing - John Isella john.isella@maritimelaunch.com +1 321-537-2720
Spaceport Development - Steve Matier steve.matier@maritimelaunch.com +1 505-553-0822
http://www.maritimelaunch.com/pdf/ML...014%202017.pdf


I am actually persuaded with the 'thousands' of satellites that will be created at One-Web down in Florida...if MLS gets a contract for 20 out of a thousand that is still roughly a billion bucks in a year!

Of course with such a pedigreed workhorse and launch history I am convinced that they would get more than 20 contracts.

They have proven Flight hardware so it is not exactly a startup company on the rocket manufacturers side.

It is a Startup "COMMERCIAL" orbital launch facility that may bootstrap our country's independant space endeavors.
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 12:54 AM
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Canada is not French Guiana nor is it New Zealand.
We could be an antipodal alternative to other locales.
Read the articles below for those who are undecided.

Canada has to cross this threshold with a spaceport.
Thank you all for your responses.
Although this is a major Construction with towering structures rising above the coastline if it is greeted with optmisim it shouldn't really cause any schism as a euphemism when a region needs the resource money.

Fisheries are being consulted so that these launches don't harm fishing season wich is a must , yet you must look at not only the sea as a local resource but that empty parcel of land that can be modified into a space base.

Like the ones I post about below.


Launches from Kourou temporarily suspended by social unrest
March 23, 2017 Stephen Clark



Quote:
The launch an Ariane 5 rocket with Brazilian and Korean communications satellites that was set for this week has been postponed indefinitely after protesters blocked access to the French Guiana spaceport.
Rocket Lab raises $75 million to scale up launch vehicle production by Jeff Foust — March 21, 2017



The first Electron launch vehicle at Rocket Lab's New Zealand launch site, awaiting launch in the coming months. Credit: Rocket Lab

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Rocket Lab, a U.S.-New Zealand company developing a small launch vehicle, announced March 21 that it has raised an additional $75 million that will help the company scale up production of the rocket.

The new funding round is led by venture capital firm Data Collective, with contributions from another VC firm, Promus Ventures, and an undisclosed investor. Several prior investors, including Bessemer Venture Partners, Khosla Ventures and K1W1, also participated in the round.

Rocket Lab said the Series D round brings the total raised by the company to $148 million, and values the company at more than $1 billion. Rocket Lab announced a Series B round of unspecified size in 2015, and Peter Beck, the company’s chief executive, said the company did an unannounced Series C round in the interim involving only existing investors.

- See more at: http://spacenews.com/rocket-lab-rais....cgoGeEjZ.dpuf

We CAN't be "CAN-DO" CANada if we CAN't launch?? CAN we???

('CAPS' on purpose to demonstrate this worthy national purpose.)
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 1:00 AM
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Quote:

Sounds cool but, what exactly does it mean? Afterall, it's just a remote site to launch rockets. What does my handshake create?
A Space Welcome Wagon?

Support I surmise.
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2017, 1:30 AM
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A few articles to bump up enthusiasm to my fellow Canucks.

https://phys.org/news/2017-03-spacex...ed-rocket.html

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-spacex...on-rocket.html

I live in Regina but wish our East Coast all the best.
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