Ottawa Senators Kanata Arena

[phil235]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Very few people know much about the OSEG deal. It's all hush-hush and lopsided with three guys with lots and lots of money and power and two other guys with not so much money and not so much power.

It was fairly evident from the outset that this was another anti-Lansdowne rant and not comment made out of any real interest in the 67's.

To suggest that Hunt entered into a lopsided agreement is pure speculation based on nothing more than conjecture. He is quite a sophisticated businessman. I have no doubt that he got good advice on the partnership agreement and is going into this with his eyes open.

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

So what happens if the OSEG partnership turns sour? What would happen if Melnyk has a much better offer for Hunt? Money talks. Melnyk has a NHL team, an arena alongside the 417 with lots of parking, a well-established hockey support staff, and lots of cash. That may become very interesting to Hunt if the 67's are successful at SBP, financially as well as on the ice.

No one who attends hockey regularly in Ottawa would ever suggest that SBP is more easily accessible to the majority of Ottawa fans. Accessibility is the #1 complaint associated with the place.

I think I explained quite clearly why the 67's would not be interested in moving permanently to a 20,000 seat arena in Kanata. They are already bleeding season tickets as it is. This is just more idle speculation.

If you are really interested in knowing how OHL teams do playing in NHL-sized arenas, check out the history of St. Michael's at Maple Leaf Gardens or the Dukes of Hamilton at Copps Coliseum. It simply doesn't work over the long term. And each of those experiments failed without direct competition from an NHL team for dates and fans.

[jaydog0212]

Originally Posted by phil235

It was fairly evident from the outset that this was another anti-Lansdowne rant and not comment made out of any real interest in the 67's.

To suggest that Hunt entered into a lopsided agreement is pure speculation based on nothing more than conjecture. He is quite a sophisticated businessman. I have no doubt that he got good advice on the partnership agreement and is going into this with his eyes open.



No one who attends hockey regularly in Ottawa would ever suggest that SBP is more easily accessible to the majority of Ottawa fans. Accessibility is the #1 complaint associated with the place.

I think I explained quite clearly why the 67's would not be interested in moving permanently to a 20,000 seat arena in Kanata. They are already bleeding season tickets as it is. This is just more idle speculation.

If you are really interested in knowing how OHL teams do playing in NHL-sized arenas, check out the history of St. Michael's at Maple Leaf Gardens or the Dukes of Hamilton at Copps Coliseum. It simply doesn't work over the long term. And each of those experiments failed without direct competition from an NHL team for dates and fans.

Toronto is really not a good exzample as its not really a good hockey market.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by jaydog0212

Toronto is really not a good exzample as its not really a good hockey market.

Fair enough. The same might be said for Hamilton. But at the same time, there aren't any examples of it working in the OHL either.

The point is that OHL teams are not looking for arenas of that size as a long-term solution. No sports team seeks out a facility that will have 60% empty seats for most games. Huge excess capacity has a demonstrably negative impact on attendance. And it would be even more ridiculous to make that move when there is a newly-renovated 9,000 seat arena available in a central location that has been proven to work for 40+ years. The location of SBP on the 417 does not make up for the huge drawbacks of location, size and limited availability.

Based on my conversations with a ticket rep, the 67's are expecting a significant drop in attendance while in Kanata, not the financial windfall that Khoole is suggesting.

[eternallyme]

Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver can manage both a highly successful NHL team and a highly successful junior system from major junior down as well as Ottawa...so the situation is not unique.

Are any of the CCHL (Tier 2) arenas expandable to temporarily hold an OHL team instead of Scotiabank Place?

[jaydog0212]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver can manage both a highly successful NHL team and a highly successful junior system from major junior down as well as Ottawa...so the situation is not unique.

Are any of the CCHL (Tier 2) arenas expandable to temporarily hold an OHL team instead of Scotiabank Place?

The Nepean Sportsplex could it would not be great but it could work.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by phil235

Fair enough. The same might be said for Hamilton. But at the same time, there aren't any examples of it working in the OHL either.

The point is that OHL teams are not looking for arenas of that size as a long-term solution. No sports team seeks out a facility that will have 60% empty seats for most games. Huge excess capacity has a demonstrably negative impact on attendance. And it would be even more ridiculous to make that move when there is a newly-renovated 9,000 seat arena available in a central location that has been proven to work for 40+ years. The location of SBP on the 417 does not make up for the huge drawbacks of location, size and limited availability.

Based on my conversations with a ticket rep, the 67's are expecting a significant drop in attendance while in Kanata, not the financial windfall that Khoole is suggesting.

I agree that location and size are drawbacks. Who wants to go back on the 417 when they have already spent more than an hour on it for just getting back home from work?

However, that is not necessarily the main reason for a drop in 67's season ticket sales. Since the Hi-Tech bubble bust twelve years ago, Ottawa is essentially a one-company town (the federal government) and employment in all areas of the local economy is far from being secure. Apart from civil servants, a lot of people involved in real estate, entertainment, restaurants, retail and in many other similar areas are cutting down on expenses.
They may cut down on food, clothes, movies and all non-essentials such as season tickets for the 67's and the Senators. They will probably still stay faithful to their home teams but may not attend as many games this year as before.

However, if the 67's or the Sens play well and are on a winning streak, attendance will go up. Being in the arena cheering for your team is a happening, not just a night out.

The 67's may have an excellent season coming this winter. I wish them well and will travel on the 417, just like many others, to cheer them along if they are doing well.

I like sports, all kinds of sports, but I prefer amateur sports ($196M for Parise and Suter??? no way!!).

Scotiabank Place is situated where it is because Bruce Finestone, the original owner, thought that he could develop a huge hotel, commercial and residentilal complex around the place. It didn't work out and he went bankrupt, just like many well-known developers of the time.

Sorry that Finestone didn't try his luck at the Bayview Yards instead. With the O-Train, LRT and all the condos being built in the vicinity, he would be sitting pretty, right now.

What is the difference between having 3,500 spectator in an arena that sits 10,000 and having 7,000 spectators in an arena sitting 20,000? Both scenarios would have a half-empty arena. However, the 7,000 crowd would theorically bring in twice as much money in sales. Dosn't better sales bring in more money to hep pay for better players?

[eemy]

Ottawa already gets about 8000 per game at the Civic Centre. I doubt moving to the Corel Centre will automatically improve that number.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver can manage both a highly successful NHL team and a highly successful junior system from major junior down as well as Ottawa...so the situation is not unique.

Are any of the CCHL (Tier 2) arenas expandable to temporarily hold an OHL team instead of Scotiabank Place?

I think that the Sportsplex is about the only one that would be feasible. Sharing the Bob would be an option, but that is not going to happen.

You are right that there are some WHL teams share a market (and an arena with NHL teams). Calgary has definitely made it work. It remains to be seen if Edmonton will work long-term, as their first attempt failed, but this team seems to be drawing so far. In Vancouver the Giants have their own building, so it is the closest parallel to Ottawa.

[McC]

Originally Posted by phil235

In Vancouver the Giants have their own building, so it is the closest parallel to Ottawa.

and like Ottawa, they play in the older rink that the pro team outgrew.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

However, that is not necessarily the main reason for a drop in 67's season ticket sales.

...

However, if the 67's or the Sens play well and are on a winning streak, attendance will go up. Being in the arena cheering for your team is a happening, not just a night out.

The 67's may have an excellent season coming this winter. I wish them well and will travel on the 417, just like many others, to cheer them along if they are doing well.

...

What is the difference between having 3,500 spectator in an arena that sits 10,000 and having 7,000 spectators in an arena sitting 20,000? Both scenarios would have a half-empty arena. However, the 7,000 crowd would theorically bring in twice as much money in sales. Dosn't better sales bring in more money to hep pay for better players?

The ticket reps definitely think that the move is the key factor impacting sales. They are putting on a huge blitz at the moment trying to retain seat-holders.

The 67's are a little different from most teams in that team performance doesn't have a huge impact on attendance. They have their core of season ticket holders, but to fill the arena they rely on promotions and group sales. Despite the team being a strong contender this year, average attendance was down to about 6500 due to decline in goup sales. You also typically see a decline in attendance in the playoffs, when game dates are not set in advance and they can't run promotions.

Unless the current blitz is successful beyond expectations, my guess is that that the 67's will be down in absolute numbers and in average ticket price this year. Fortunately they have a margin of error as the team has been profitable in the past. And as they don't pay their players, the lower revenue won't have an impact on the quality of the team.

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by phil235

You are right that there are some WHL teams share a market (and an arena with NHL teams). Calgary has definitely made it work. It remains to be seen if Edmonton will work long-term, as their first attempt failed, but this team seems to be drawing so far. In Vancouver the Giants have their own building, so it is the closest parallel to Ottawa.

The Calgary Hitmen and Edmonton Oil Kings are also owned by the Flames and Oilers. (The other Edmonton team you are referring to was the Ice, now based in Cranbrook, BC as the Kootenay Ice were not affiliated with the Oilers at all) That offers them some benefits, since they can share marketing, administration and support staff with the big club. Which the 67's will be doing with the CFL and NASL teams.

[archie-tect]

While it would never happen, having the 67's play at the 4600 seat Civic Complex would be interesting and could have potentially led to a more permanent team in Cornwall. Oh well, maybe eventually.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The 416 didn't exist at that time. And as a French-Canadian studying at a French college in Ottawa; everyone I ever knew from Orleans/Rockland and further east were Sens fans (and one Boston fan).

But ya, majority from Gatineau are still Habs fans.

Agree with this. Growing up in east Ottawa in the 80s almost all Franco-Ontarians were Habs fans but these days almost all of them have switched to the Sens and only a minority remain loyal to the Habs.

Gatineau is a totally different story and the Habs clearly dominate, probably by a 70-30 margin still. Most of the Senators fans in Gatineau are people originally from Ottawa, or old Nordiques fans who hate the Habs and take for the Sens to spite them. If the Nordiques come back most of the latter will likely go back to them.

[ArchiCAD]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Although I've driven past the place, I must say I've never been there and never will be - just too far out of town for me to make the effort. It occurs to me that after 30 years in Ottawa, I've never actually been to Kanata either. Am I missing anything?

How have you driven by Scotia Bank Place, but never been to Kanata?? It's like saying you've driven by Parliament Hill but never been to Ottawa.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ArchiCAD

How have you driven by Scotia Bank Place, but never been to Kanata?? It's like saying you've driven by Parliament Hill but never been to Ottawa.

No, it's more like saying "I've driven thru Montreal on my way to Quebec city, but never visited Montreal".

And kwoldtimer, you're not missing anything you can't see around Ogilvy Rd or Carling Ave west of Kirkwood.

[waterloowarrior]

67s attendance is terrible at CTC this year with the NHL back in full force. Only around 1500 fans at a couple of games. Average is 3,645 per game, but if you take out the home opener average attendance is only 2,554. They used to average 8000-9000 per game in the early-mid 2000s.

The team was last place in the league last year, 5-8 so far this year.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...h.php?tmi=7314


http://www.hockeyattendance.com/team/ottawa-67s/2013/
http://www.hockeyattendance.com/team/ottawa-67s/2012/

[phil235]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

67s attendance is terrible at CTC this year with the NHL back in full force. Only around 1500 fans at a couple of games. Average is 3,645 per game, but if you take out the home opener average attendance is only 2,554. They used to average 8000-9000 per game in the early-mid 2000s.

The team was last place in the league last year, 5-8 so far this year.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...h.php?tmi=7314


http://www.hockeyattendance.com/team/ottawa-67s/2013/
http://www.hockeyattendance.com/team/ottawa-67s/2012/

Not surprising. They lost a tonne of season ticket holders when they moved. It remains to be seen how many they'll get back when they return downtown.

We had a package that we unloaded as well. A key attraction was the ability to walk to the Civic Centre. I can't really justify driving out to Kanata for both the Sens and the 67s, and the bus doesn't seem to be a real option for the 67s. I'd rather pop over to see Gatineau play for the time being.

[eternallyme]

They should have moved to one of the Junior A arenas instead - smaller but more convenient...

[AuxTown]

The fans will return once back in the Glebe. There are a ton of people who support the 67's just because they play in the city and it is an easier place to get to for a game. With all the new amenities at Lansdowne, a renovated Civic Centre, and hopefully a better product on the ice next year, they will surely get some (if not all) of their fans back.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

They should have moved to one of the Junior A arenas instead - smaller but more convenient...

Or maybe even Robert Guertin in Hull.