World Trade Center Construction Flaws Revisited

[GWHH]

At 8:46 a.m. on September 11, the first hijacked plane slammed through Floors 93 to 98 of the North Tower with a force equal to 240 tons of TNT.

ONE gallon of gasoline has the explosive power of 13 pounds of Dynamite.

Originally Posted by THE BIG APPLE

Ok so take a look at this

Red-Orange flames

[GWHH]

Fifteen fire pumps in each building fed the standpipe and automatic sprinkler systems. Each building was also equipped with seven water storage tanks (5000 Gallons each) that could supply water to the system prior to activation of the fire pumps to sustain initial firefighting operations. The standpipes were arranged in three zones. Therefore, a loss of one standpipe did not mean the loss of firefighting water throughout the building, though it could conceivably mean long hose stretches for firefighters. Two firefighters operating in the South Tower on 9-11 made it up to the lowest crash floor, the 78th floor, and reported fires burning there. Had the building not collapsed, it is conceivable, at least in theory, that the fire department could have mounted a fire attack from a standpipe connection up to the fire floor.

[dchan]

^^ To be fair, jets use kerosene, not gasoline as their fuel.

[speedy1979]

Originally Posted by GWHH

Fifteen fire pumps in each building fed the standpipe and automatic sprinkler systems. Each building was also equipped with seven water storage tanks (5000 Gallons each) that could supply water to the system prior to activation of the fire pumps to sustain initial firefighting operations. The standpipes were arranged in three zones. Therefore, a loss of one standpipe did not mean the loss of firefighting water throughout the building, though it could conceivably mean long hose stretches for firefighters. Two firefighters operating in the South Tower on 9-11 made it up to the lowest crash floor, the 78th floor, and reported fires burning there. Had the building not collapsed, it is conceivable, at least in theory, that the fire department could have mounted a fire attack from a standpipe connection up to the fire floor.

How many gallons of water/minute is needed to suppress 1 acre of fire?

[THE BIG APPLE]

1240 gallons of water/per acre

[STR]

Originally Posted by GWHH

Plus-all the orginals plans and paperwork related to the building was stored in the trade center complex and was destroyed on 9/11.

Not at all. Plans and blueprints were held by the architects and engineering firms that both built the buildings and later maintained them. There are numerous complete copies of the WTC as originally built as well as how it existed in 2001.

[marshall]

It was eerie to hear the radio dispatches of the firefighter who actually made it to the impact zone of the South Tower, which was the 78th floor skylobby. It's now common knowledge that there was one stairway in that tower left intact all the way to the top, stairway A. Sadly though most trapped on those upper floors above floor 78 just weren't aware, able or didn't have the time to make it to that stairway. Only a handful above the impact zone in the South Tower got out, most famously Brian Clark, the firemarshall from 84th floor, and Stanley Praimnath, the officer worker from floor 81 who Clark rescued. I often wondered if the towers had not collapsed, if anykind of aerial water/hosing operation could have been mounted to alleviate some of the intense flames and smoke.

[GWHH]

Here A Whole Bunch Of PDF About the Building itself, the fire fighting ability of the WTC complex, and the collapse of the buildings:

https://rapidshare.com/files/2507086051/wtc.rar

or

http://depositfiles.com/files/mqhkqtmzy?redirect

[dchan]

Ahh, this thread again. To this day, I'm pretty sure that The Big Apple still doesn't understand that Steel Temperature chart he bandied around as his "evidence".

[THE BIG APPLE]

^ Ofcourse I do. It's basic chemistry and physics. Q=mC(delta)T or Heat Capacity, and melting point of solids (in this case) structural steel 2,700-2,800 (2,750 appox.). Heat Capacity determines the capacity of heat something needs to change the temperature. That's step one into finding the 'solution'. The rest is up to you, and what ever you believe or not is your own prerogative. Physics comes in handy when determining that a ball falls off a 1000+ ft building (ESB, WTC, etc.) and reaches the ground in 8-12 seconds. hmm... If you have a basic understanding of chemistry and physics then you have a basic understanding of flaws revisited. You believe what you want and I respect your opinion, and you believe my stuff or not but respect knowledge whether right or wrong (because many people don't have it)......

[dchan]

As I suspected, you still don't get what that chart means. Read the link where you took the chart from and you'll see that it has nothing do with flame color. In fact, since solid steel is an incombustible material, it has absolutely nothing to do with the flame colors you see in the pictures.

The color of a flame is the result of many different factors. Yes, temperature is one of them. But there are many others. Take a look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame#Flame_temperature

[THE BIG APPLE]

^ Let's get off the topic of flame color, and onto jet fuel (for just a second). Do you think the jet fuel melted the steel combined by the 'raging inferno'? (If yes then I can easily prove you wrong, and we'll get back to flame color).

[dchan]

Get off the flame color talk? That's the reason why I joined this thread, so I could refute your misuse of a steel temperature color chart.

But sure, you can explain how you can prove wrong whatever you hope to disprove. For your reference, your temperature cutoff is about 1100F, not melting point. And you are already acquainted with heat and heat capacity, so you can use that for your explanation as well. I'm all ears here.

[THE BIG APPLE]

OK HERE WE GO.

F.E.M.A estimates that 3,500 gallons of jet fuel were burned in each tower.

Assuming this info lets work on a smaller basis (floor by floor).

1) Assume that the jet fuel was inserted into ONE floor of the WTC.
2) Assume that the jet fuel burned efficiently and oxygen was available in the perfect ratio to contribute to this efficiency.
3) Assume that no gases (hot) left the floor (we're working with ONE floor) by and movement what so ever (motion, conduction, convection, radiation).
4) Assume that the steel and concrete had infinite (available) time to absorb the heat.
5) Assume that the heat distribution is even along the entire floor.

Now assuming all this (1-5) we can calculate how much the jet fuel could've burned.

Assume an efficient chemical reaction: C(n)H(2n)(hydrocarbon)+3n/2 O2 (Oxygen) ==> n CO2 (Carbon Dioxide)+n H2O (water vapor)

This has a calorific net value of: 44-42 megajoules(joules*1 million)/kilograms

The heat energy is used to heat the byproducts resulting from the chemical reaction and the concrete and steel. Nitrogenous particles in the air also absorb heat.

Molar Ratio for Air: O2 (oxygen)+3.76 N2 (nitrogen)

Now using the equation ABOVE the calorific net value. CnH2n+3n/2(O2+3.76 N2) ==> n CO2+ n H2O+5.64n N2 OR CnH2n:CO2:H2O:N2 = (equal) 1:n:n:5.64n moles.

Now we convert the moles to mass. Use the formula n(moles)=m(mass)/M(molar_mass).

M=Molar Mass (below)

M(Hydrogen)=1 : M(Carbon)=12 : M(Nitrogen)=14 : M(Oxygen)=16 OR equal to ==>
14n : 44n : 18n : 28*5.64n Kilograms OR equal to ==> 1 : 3.14286 : 1.28571 : 11.28 Kilograms.

^ Mass when 3500 gallons of kerosene burnt: 10,850 : 34,100 : 13,949 : 122,288 kilograms

BTW

Every one of the twin towers higher floors had 550,000 kilograms of structural steel. PLUS 1,428,300 kilograms of concrete from floor (slabs) and ceiling.

Now we will convert the units from the chemical reaction. The atmospheric temp is (25 C), and we will convert it to a temp known a (T).

1) 13,949 kilograms (H2O) vapor to T degrees Celsius
2) 34,100 kilograms (CO2) gas to T degrees Celsius
3) 122,388 kilograms of Nitrogen(2) gas to T degrees Celsius
4) 550,000 kilograms of structural steel to T degrees Celsius
5) 1,428,300 kilograms of concrete to T degrees Celsius

And you are already acquainted with heat and heat capacity, so you can use that for your explanation as well.

Now I WILL. The table below shows the calculated heat capacity of the substances bold-ed above.

(H2O)-1,690 J/Kg Celsius
(CO2)-845 J/Kg Celsius
(N2)-1,038 J/Kg Celsius
Structural Steel-450 J/Kg Celsius
Concrete-800 J/Kg Celsius

Now to take the numbers on the right (above) to the aforementioned T degrees Celsius, we will used the the formula E=MC(delta)T.

M=Mass
C=Heating Capacity
(delta)T=rise/or difference in temp

We're also going to have to assume that the atmospheric temp on that day was (delta)T=T-25 degrees Celsius. (Remember atmospheric temp is 25 degrees C)

Now for the conversion.

H2O=13.949*1,690*(T-25)
CO2=34.1*845*(T-25)
N2=122.388*1,030*(T-25)
Steel=550,000*450*(T-25)
Concrete=1,428,300*800*(T-25)

The energy in (E=MC(delta)T) is received from the jet fuel burned (3500 gallons or 10,850 kilograms).

Calorific Value of kerosene: 44 Mj (mega joules) or 44,000,000 joules

So you multiply the kilograms of jet fuel (that day) by the calorific value of kerosene SO: 10,850*44,000,000 = 477,400,000,000 Joules

This is the amount of energy (477,400,000,000 Joules) that will be used to heat up the FIVE aforementioned substances (water, carbon, nitrogen, steel, and concrete).

Now I'll give you a task. Multiply 477,400,000,000 Joules with the five substances and you'll get (guaranteed) 624 degrees Celsius, MUCH MUCH too low to melt or even weaken structural steel (concrete etc.).

[dchan]

^ Thanks for all of the hard work you put into your explanation. Much appreciated

However, you did forget a couple of items. First, the most important item is that you forgot to convert the temperature to Fahrenheit. Converted, 624°C equals about 1155°F, which is just above the cutoff point I mentioned in my post above. At that temperature, the yield strength of steel is cut in half.

Second, the only source of fuel that you considered was the kerosene. This was not an empty office building; it was an operational office building. As such, there were many other sources of fuel to use, such as paper, furniture, carpeting, and other items that you would find in an office. How much do these items add to the heat energy of the fire? I don't know. They may even possibly lower the total heat temperature as items that absorb heat energy, but I doubt it. (After all, what else would spread a fire in a normal office fire?) But in any case, you neglected to include those items, which is why your calculations are not 100% correct.

Also, concrete is completely fireproof. Its strength is unaffected by heat, which is why the Windsor Tower (from your first post) with its reinforced concrete core was able to survive its massive fire intact, and it's the reason behind the engineers going with a high strength reinforced concrete core in the new WTC1.

[THE BIG APPLE]

Yes, 1,155 degrees F is still WAY below half of the steel melting point.

Yes, Windson Tower-Concrete core/structure
New 1WTC-Concrete core
Twin Towers-Steel Reinforced, Cast Concrete, Tubular Core(s)

(If anything we should've had a standing/semi-standing core(s))



(^ Large pieces of concrete falling).

If I'm understood correctly, MOST of the paper(s) and such contents were flying out ALL over Manhattan. Second , after the towers fell there were NO tables, NO chairs, NO computers, NO telephones, etc found.

[dchan]

There you go again. In your previous post, you acknowledged that, yes, steel can indeed be weakened before it reaches its melting point. Instead, you realized that your argument was flawed (based on your own calculations, no less) and chose to repeat your previous mantra of "the steel didn't melt" even after you had already acknowledged that steel can be weakened well below its melting temperature.

I thought you had become more reasonable when you made the effort to type in all of your calculations. But it's pretty clear that you'll say anything to save your faltering argument at this point, no matter how ridiculous. I mean, in your last sentence, you're claiming that all of the office furniture, papers, and other office material in the towers basically disintegrated into nothingness!

[marvelfannumber1]

That's a conspiracy theorist of ya. Once one of their statements are debunked they pretend like they have learned only to use the same debunked argument over and over again later.

[1ajs]

umm the heat still warps the steel and softens it during the fire. does not need to melt it....

[Tom In Chicago]

I shouldn't need to remind you that conspiracy theories are not allowed on these messageboards. . . we'll lock this thread if it continues down that path. . .

. . .