Sacramento Suburban Development

[wburg]

Increasing service frequency would mean double-tracking the Gold Line right-of-way out to Old Folsom. That's some good news. Hopefully an increase in frequency will also include extended hours: currently trips from Folsom to Sacramento stop at 7:00 and I don't think trips from Sacramento to Folsom run much later.

[econgrad]

^ Only til 7:00? Well extended hours will hopefully come soon.

[Fusey]

From my understanding the city of Folsom would need to contribute more to RT to extend the service hours. The Lake Natomas Crossing was built to accommodate a single track, but even when I was at HDR we had no idea if Folsom had plans for it within the next 20 years or so.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by Fusey

From my understanding the city of Folsom would need to contribute more to RT to extend the service hours. The Lake Natomas Crossing was built to accommodate a single track, but even when I was at HDR we had no idea if Folsom had plans for it within the next 20 years or so.

I need to learn more how the business model and how RT works, because is it not making a profit from ridership? Is RT completely subsidized? Maybe this is a better question for the Transportation thread after I do more research.

[wburg]

econgrad: RT, like every other public transit agency in the country (if not the world), does not make a profit from ridership. Currently, they get about a 20-25% farebox return: 1/4 to 1/5 of RT's funding comes from fares, the rest comes from various forms of public subsidy. Really big cities with very well-ridden public transit tends to get about a 50-60% farebox return.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by wburg

econgrad: RT, like every other public transit agency in the country (if not the world), does not make a profit from ridership. Currently, they get about a 20-25% farebox return: 1/4 to 1/5 of RT's funding comes from fares, the rest comes from various forms of public subsidy. Really big cities with very well-ridden public transit tends to get about a 50-60% farebox return.

Thanks Wburg. I will still do some more digging though, interesting stuff! Public trans is not in demand in a free market. Yet, roads are also publicly funded, except for toll roads and bridges.

[econgrad]

QUESTION FOR WBURG! And whomever else would like a shot at it:

Reading the above article, do you think the landowners who want higher fees to relieve traffic congestion are only thinking of making their land more accessible and therefore more valuable? (meaning not really concerned about the general state of traffic and transportation issues).

[otnemarcaS]

Surprised light rail only runs to Folsom till 7pm. Ironically, I plan on going to Folsom LIVE with friends on Saturday Sept 27th and with a ticket pre-purchase you can ride on RT for free to Folsom and back. On that day, RT has extended service till 11:30pm. Event starts at 5pm. However, we'll still probably drive because we probably will not return to Sac till about 2am or so.

[wburg]

Originally Posted by econgrad

Thanks Wburg. I will still do some more digging though, interesting stuff! Public trans is not in demand in a free market. Yet, roads are also publicly funded, except for toll roads and bridges.

Public transit is in demand, the problem is that the real cost of the product is greater than the cost riders are willing to pay. The subsidy they pay for roads and highways are even greater, but they're invisible because you don't have to drop a buck in a farebox when you drive down the street. If public transportation was free (that is, if it was 100% subsidized) demand (and thus ridership) would go up dramatically, because people wouldn't have to worry about paying, they could just get on.

Reading the above article, do you think the landowners who want higher fees to relieve traffic congestion are only thinking of making their land more accessible and therefore more valuable? (meaning not really concerned about the general state of traffic and transportation issues).

Being concerned about the general state of traffic and transportation issues, and taking action to improve them, results in making their land more accessible and therefore more valuable.

[econgrad]

^ But people have to fill up their gas tanks, and yet more people would rather drive than use public transportation even though using a car is more expensive. Filling up their gas tanks compared to paying a tiny fee for Public Trans proves that PT is not as in demand as cars on roads. Which is a pity, RT should be a 24/7 service that is convenient and quick, then the demand would change.

Oh, and I asked if you think the developers care about the fee not for community benefit, but just for their own. I was just asking your opinion, we both already know it will make the developments more valuable.

[Majin]

econgrad can you just move to Fresno and be done with it?

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by Majin

econgrad can you just move to Fresno and be done with it?

Nope. I love it here.

[wburg]

Originally Posted by econgrad

^ But people have to fill up their gas tanks, and yet more people would rather drive than use public transportation even though using a car is more expensive. Filling up their gas tanks compared to paying a tiny fee for Public Trans proves that PT is not as in demand as cars on roads. Which is a pity, RT should be a 24/7 service that is convenient and quick, then the demand would change.

Oh, and I asked if you think the developers care about the fee not for community benefit, but just for their own. I was just asking your opinion, we both already know it will make the developments more valuable.

A 24/7 service that is convenient and quick would require considerably more funding than RT gets now. Most people use their cars because public transit is not near enough to most people, or convenient enough for most people, to switch modes. People are also very used to driving their cars, and for many taking public transit is an unfamiliar and intimidating experience.

Public transit systems are never going to be particularly efficient at reaching a dispersed suburban population, like the one around Sacramento and other western cities, unless the way people live in those suburbs changes significantly. Those suburbs were built around the car, not rail transit, and it's very hard to make the switch. Fixed-rail transit like light rail, heavy commuter rail and streetcars work best with relatively dense populations living within walking distance of the stations. Using buses and park & ride lots as a feeder system to fixed rail helps expand the network somewhat, but any time people have to transfer, you lose efficiency and passengers.

I'm not a mind reader, so I don't have an opinion about what those developers actually think.

[Surefiresacto]

Originally Posted by SacTownKing916

north natomas


Does anyone know when this project is going to start in Natomas off of the freeway. Thank You.

Ose's Natomas project delayed
Sacramento Business Journal
By Kelly Johnson Staff writer
Published 2:48 PM PDT Tuesday, September 16, 2008

The Ose family’s proposed mixed-use project in North Natomas is no longer on the fast track and has been pulled from the Sacramento City Council’s Tuesday agenda.

“The project’s still alive,” said David Hung, a city associate planner working on the Natomas Landing project.

But developer Doug Ose has informed the city he will no longer try to beat a December deadline to pull building permits before new federal flood rules require costly construction changes, Hung said.

Instead, the city staff and Ose will take the time for a more thorough review and any necessary revisions, Hung said. The project could return to the Planning Commission and City Council late this early or early next year, he added.

Wendy Hoyt, Doug Ose's spokeswoman, could not be reached for comment.

Work began on Ose’s estimated $200 million project of retail and office space and hotels in mid-August, but was halted the very next day after city officials discovered a building permit for the project had been issued in error.

In response to concerned residents, Ose in July scaled back the retail portion of the project by 29 percent to include hotels and more offices.

Ose, a former Congressman, and his father, Enlow, have been revamping plans since 1999 for their nearly 70-acre site at the northeast corner of Del Paso Road and El Centro Road in North Natomas.

[innov8]

The rendering you used above is not for Ose's project but for the Commerce
Station proposal that has already been approved across the freeway to the east.

[SacTownKing916]

That really sucks that they have delayed the Ose project. I guess it wont be built til about 3-4 years now. It seems like nothing can be built without being delayed in this city. By the way does anyone know if they are going to start building the park behind inkerdurm high school. With that nice little lake i believe it can be better than mckineley park. Thanks.

[Surefiresacto]

Sacramento Business Journal
by Michael Shaw Staff writer
Published Wednesday, October 1, 2008

Affordable housing advocates are trumpeting Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger’s signing of a bill that aims to limit sprawl and encourage more compact development in cities across California.

Housing California, the California Affordable Law Project and the California Rural Legal Assistance Foundation jointly said Wednesday that Senate Bill 375, authored by Sacramento Democrat Darrell Steinberg, would improve conditions for affordable housing. The bill is expected to encourage more compact development by extending most communities’ housing elements from 5 years to 8 years to make housing and transportation plans more in line, and gives deadlines to local governments to implement housing programs.

The bill also offers relief for developments that contribute to reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

[SacTownKing916]

Here is a little more info on the Ose project from news review

Ose goes 0 for 2
Plan to jam through Natomas shopping center grinds to a halt

This article was published on 09.11.08.


Doug Ose tried to push through a Natomas shopping center before the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s building moratorium kicked in.


Even the millionaires are having a bad year. First Doug Ose loses a nasty primary battle for a U.S. congressional seat to fellow Republican Tom McClintock. Now, Ose’s run out of time to push through a major shopping mall in the Natomas flood plain.

Critics of the “Natomas Landing” project—at the corner of Del Paso and El Centro roads, called it a “shopping mall on a cul-de-sac.” Jonathan Burke, who is part of an ad hoc group of nearby neighbors calling themselves Concerned Residents of Westlake and North Natomas, likened the 69-acre project to Alcatraz: “There’s only one way in and one way out.” Like others in the gated Westlake community across the street from the proposed project, Burke is worried about constant traffic gridlock.

And the land isn’t zoned for big retail. Ose was asking for a 400,000-square-foot regional shopping center on land that was slated for offices and housing. In May of 2008, the Sacramento City Planning Commission called it “absolutely the wrong project at the wrong place” and voted 5-0 against the project.

So Ose went back to the drawing board a made a couple of tweaks. The retail component was scaled back a bit, and with the help of the city’s Development Services Department, Ose brought the project back to the planning commission on August 28.

But there was one big change in the normal planning process. City development staff told the commissioners that they would not be allowed to make a recommendation on the project—they could only offer their comments. Then it would be up to the mayor and city council to decide whether to approve the project.

“It was bizarre,” said commissioner Michael Notestine, who has put in more than 13 years on the planning commission. In that time, he says, city staff has never handled a project in this way.

“It was presented to us at the 11th hour. There was no forewarning,” agreed Darrel Woo, who currently serves as chairman of the commission. “I was frustrated and a bit befuddled.”

The recommendations of the commissioners are never binding on the city council, which has the ultimate approval authority. But the planning commission has enormous weight on the city council’s decision, and this looked to some project opponents like a way to short circuit the commission. In the end, the commissioners refused to comment on the project at all. Notestine told SN&R that the project seemed better, at least on the surface, than it had in May. “But I felt like if I made any comment on it, it would be taken as approval.”

It was one more in a series of strange twists for Ose’s ill-fated project. Earlier this year, the city “accidentally” issued Ose permits to start grading the area for construction, despite the fact that the city council had yet to approve the project and the planning commission had given it the thumbs down.

When the city caught its mistake, Ose got frustrated. He was quoted in The Sacramento Bee as saying, “I’m trying to get my building permit by midnight on December 7.”

Without those permits, any project proposed in the Natomas floodplain is on hold—indefinitely, until Sacramento river levees and other flood protections are improved to meet the new standards set by the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

That’s put pressure on the city to get as many projects in the pipeline as possible, to keep development fees coming in. “People in Natomas are rushing to beat the FEMA deadline. It’s coming from the top,” Notestine explained.

Greg Bitter, the city’s principal planner, said that the unusual process “was a timing issue,” and that it was believed the project could be ready to go to the city council on September 16.

That would have allowed enough time for Ose to get his permits and break ground before December 7. “It was an unusual circumstance,” Bitter added. “Hindsight being 20/20, I can’t say we’d do it that way again.”

And late last week, Ose decided time had run out on the project; he would not pursue building permits before the FEMA deadline.

Bitter says the project will probably come back to the planning commission at the end of this year—but any actual construction is in limbo. “Best-case scenario is 2011 or 2012 before the city can start issuing those permits again,” he explained.

[bc sacramento]

I am just going to throw this out there...
Roseville should look at Bellvue,Wa to get some ideas of future growth.

[TowerDistrict]

Originally Posted by bc sacramento

I am just going to throw this out there...
Roseville should look at Bellvue,Wa to get some ideas of future growth.

Roseville has no interest in managing its growth. And I'm willing to bet that the community and local government of Bellevue took a look at Roseville (and the greater Sacramento suburban region) as an example of "what NOT to do".

During the great building boom of yesteryear, those two cities were at the same fork in the road. One went left and the other went right.