NCC interprovincial transit plan MIA?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Interprovincial transit study was finally released today!

Actually, I *DID* post that as an April Fools joke... but it made it happen! Booo yeah!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

The NCC can have all the good ideas they want but without any financial commitments from the federal level, most of these projects will never see the light of day.

Funding committments from the two cities, and the two provinces that Ottawa and Gatineau are supposedly in, would be nice, too.

Say it would cost (number out of a hat) $100-million and two years to extend the O-train from Bayview to Hull. Split five ways, over two years, that's $10-million per funding partner per year. Not quite chump change. But not onerous, either, for a national capital, two cities totalling over a million in population, the country's fourth-largest metro area, Ontario's second-largest, and Quebec's third-largest. There are highway interchange projects that cost as much or more.

But, this being Ottawa, and Gatineau, the bastard children of Confederation, ignored by their respective provinces, Nothing Will Ever Happen.

Nothing.

EVER.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

But, this being Ottawa, and Gatineau, the bastard children of Confederation, ignored by their respective provinces, Nothing Will Ever Happen.

Nothing.

EVER.

In this case, the two provinces don't even have to ignore Ottawa and Gatineau.

The two cities themselves seem intent on ignoring the existence of the other and their mutual problems.


You criticize the NCC a lot yet what we have here is the NCC trying to be constructive only to have the entrenched interests of Ottawa and Gatineau shut any meaningful interprovincial ideas down. Deans even went so far as to complain that the NCC's proposal was somehow at odds with Ottawa's TMP ... a TMP that Ottawa has continually refused to incorporate interprovincial connections into on the grounds that they are waiting for the NCC!


So yes, Nothing Will Ever Happen but not because of the provinces ignoring us or even because of the NCC getting in the way but because the two cities don't want anything to happen.


Frankly it's time to get on with merging the two cities into one national capital region and finally force the two sides to start planning things together. Sure, it won't eliminate this kind of pettiness overnight, but nevertheless once constituted as a single authority they'll have no choice but to deal with these issues, just as the amalgamations on either side of the river have forced city, suburb and countryside to begin to deal with issues of mutual concern.

[McC]

we don't even need to merge the damn cities or end provincial jurisdiction, there are plenty of examples from around the world of regional transportation authorities that operate across jurisdictional boundaries (see for example the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey).

Hearing Diane Deans basically claim that running buses full to Gatineau then bringing them back empty every morning, and doing the reverse every evening, is some kind of pillar of our transportation plan on the radio this morning nearly made me violent.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by McC

we don't even need to merge the damn cities or end provincial jurisdiction, there are plenty of examples from around the world of regional transportation authorities that operate across jurisdictional boundaries (see for example the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey).

Hearing Diane Deans basically claim that running buses full to Gatineau then bringing them back empty every morning, and doing the reverse every evening, is some kind of pillar of our transportation plan on the radio this morning nearly made me violent.

I agree, we don't have to merge the cities (yet) but we certainly can start by merging STO & OCTranspo. Having a single map, website, travel planner, unified schedules, and fare structure, would all go a long way into improving transit mobility within the NCR.

[agl]

Originally Posted by Dado

If STO chair Patrice Martin can't figure out the rationale of extending the O-Train to Hull, he should probably just resign.

OC Transpo wastes an inordinate amount of resources ferrying people from LeBreton to Chaudière and Portage. Even if an O-Train service to Hull doesn't move a single Gatineau resident on the return leg, it would still make sense.


Any idea what Diane Deans was looking for? Lots of NCC land and money given to the City without conditions perhaps?

This is what I just don't understand. What were they expecting from this study if it was such a huge disappointment, an invisible monorail to serve the two dowtown cores and jetpacks for every river crossing commuter living outside the core, all paid for by a forest of money trees planted on Victoria Island??? The O-train connection to Gatineau is just logical, full stop. The bulk of the other recommendations are also very reasonable and logical steps to a sound transit system between the two cities.

And with both transit authorities, apparently, involved in this study, how does this end up with both Chairs damning it to hell the moment its published??
Way to go Ottaneau, we'll have a just spiffy intraprovincial transit system in no time with this kind of cooperation.

[McC]

you're hired, agl!

[Dado]

Originally Posted by agl

Way to go Ottaneau, we'll have a just spiffy intraprovincial transit system in no time with this kind of cooperation.

Ottaneau... that's effing brilliant.

It combines elements of both city names, it includes a homophone for "no" and the entire thing reads like "oughta know".

[Dado]

Originally Posted by McC

we don't even need to merge the damn cities or end provincial jurisdiction, there are plenty of examples from around the world of regional transportation authorities that operate across jurisdictional boundaries (see for example the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey).

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I agree, we don't have to merge the cities (yet) but we certainly can start by merging STO & OCTranspo. Having a single map, website, travel planner, unified schedules, and fare structure, would all go a long way into improving transit mobility within the NCR.

As it happens, the first report I read was the Governance Report, having by that time already heard the infrastructural highlights and their panning by the transit chairs.

http://www.interprovincial-transit-s...bid=99&mid=560

They cite a few examples of multi-jurisdictional transit agencies: Vancouver, Montréal and Toronto in Canada (but all are across municipalities only), Kansas City (Kansas and Missouri) and Washington DC (DC, Maryland and Virginia) in the US, and Tyne and Wear in England (across counties, which are more powerful there than our counties but less so than provinces or states).

They evaluated a few different options, including a "Harmonized Statutory Authority" (i.e. merger) and an "Umbrella Agency" which carries out system planning but operations are left where they are, though potentially with additional providers (e.g. hive off Capital Railway from OC Transpo for rail, ParaTranspo, etc.). The other options were progressively weaker ("Special Purpose Board" (say, running the rail system only, or rapid transit planning), "Contracted Framework", "Voluntary Interprovincial Transit Governance").

Whoever wrote the evaluation must be an eternal pessimist and cynic (really, it wasn't me) because they basically dismissed the first ones as unlikely to ever happen while potentially lacking in taxation powers even if they did and the weaker ones as being nearly as difficult to set up and a lot less effective.

At the end, they recommend the creation of a "tripartite" body that would in turn oversee the establishment of a "Joint Advisory and Monitoring Board" (a specific kind of Special Purpose Board), and initially only to oversee the implementation of the NCC's own strategy with the faint (feint?) hope of it leading to something more.

Heck, why don't I just illustrate this new bureaucracy:

• Tripartite Body: Ottawa, Gatineau, NCC
  • Joint Advisory and Monitoring Board – "This board will oversee the implementation of the strategy and will include all relevant partners." Sub-groups will be created:
    • Operations Implementation Group – "This group consists of both transit operators that will ultimately work together to create the appearance of a single transit network delivering interprovincial transit services." (Brilliantly cynical)
    • Policy and Planning Group – "This group consists of all agencies working together to create policy that will lead to collaborative planning for the entire region."
  • Downtown Circulator Board – "This board is a separate body that will oversee the operations of the Downtown Circulator. This group will be established prior to the implementation of the service." (God forbid)

And why don't I just quote the concluding paragraph, too:

"Therefore, interim governance solutions are proposed that will provide a basis for moving forward. The immediate recommendation is simple and pragmatic – to set up an Advisory and Monitoring Board at the political level responsible for managing the implementation of this Strategy further encouraging voluntary collaboration at the operational level between the NCC and the City of Ottawa, Ville de Gatineau, STO and OC Transpo."

I suppose it's vaguely realistic... assuming any of them actually want to help implement the Strategy, which, judging by Deans' and Martin's comments, they don't.

Nothing Will Ever Happen. Nothing. EVER. - Uhuniau

[lrt's friend]

Sometimes I wonder if we are more likely to succeed if the proposals assume that rapid transit can't cross the provincial boundary. Pour the billions into rapid transit on both sides of the river and then make passengers walk across the Prince of Wales bridge or the Portage Bridge to transfer. Buy hey, then someone will have to invest in the Prince of Wales bridge to make it suitable for pedestrians. Even that is easier said than done.

When I see the eternal debate on the east end bridge, how can we really accomplish anything more complicated involving interprovincial rapid transit? More talk and no action.

Regarding comments that the plan is not consistent with the TMP, maybe that's because the TMP only concerns itself with the Ontario side of the river. Of course, it seems to me that rapid transit planning isn't always consistent with the TMP either. We seem to moving away from the original ideas as fiscal reality is becoming apparent.

[litreofcola]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

The NCC can have all the good ideas they want but without any financial commitments from the federal level, most of these projects will never see the light of day.

Yes but for the first time.....they've actually had a good idea This is exciting in and of itself.

Honestly....looks like a pretty coherent report that contains actual intelligence and foresight. Not sure what the cities' respective issues are.

And as for the earlier comment about Gatineau prioritizing internal growth and east-west connections first...I'm sure that's how they see it, but they are cutting off their nose to spite their face. There's nothing that says they can't improve REGIONAL connectivity as part of a larger plan which includes intra-city linkages. The insistence on seeing working with Ottawa as "neglecting" themselves or being "subordinate" to Ottawa is idiotic and short-sighted and actually hurts them more than it helps them. Gatineau has important tourist features, employment centres and other municipal amenities, and missing the chance to connect Ottawans (or Ottawa visitors) to them is so monumentaly stupid I can't even express it.

[litreofcola]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Certainly there is a strong sentiment in Gatineau that any transit investments should contribute to the unity of Gatineau as one city, and more than just a suburb or an appendage of Ottawa.

So the priority is on improving links between the eastern and western sides of the city.

Most of the recent priority highway and road projects (Boulevard des Allumettières for example) have been consistent with this as well.

This is the quote I refer to, just to be clear. Not a shot at the person who posted this, just the sentiment itself.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Dado

Ottaneau... that's effing brilliant.

It combines elements of both city names, it includes a homophone for "no" and the entire thing reads like "oughta know".

Why, we even have an anthem by a local artist

• Video Link

"Well, I'm here to remind you of the mess you left..."

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

You criticize the NCC a lot yet what we have here is the NCC trying to be constructive only to have the entrenched interests of Ottawa and Gatineau shut any meaningful interprovincial ideas down. Deans even went so far as to complain that the NCC's proposal was somehow at odds with Ottawa's TMP ... a TMP that Ottawa has continually refused to incorporate interprovincial connections into on the grounds that they are waiting for the NCC!

Deans is a moron.

However, I don't think the NCC is trying to be constructive. This report was released nearly 3.5 years after its original "completion" date was projected. The NCC has spent that time watering it down.

So yes, Nothing Will Ever Happen but not because of the provinces ignoring us or even because of the NCC getting in the way but because the two cities don't want anything to happen.

That, too. This isn't an either/or proposition.

Frankly it's time to get on with merging the two cities into one national capital region

Never gonna happen.

Never. Ever.

Maybe the Ontario portion could be carved out of Ontario, as Washington was out of Maryland. But Quebec plays Virginia in this version.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

Ottaneau... that's effing brilliant.

It combines elements of both city names, it includes a homophone for "no" and the entire thing reads like "oughta know".

I'm holding out for Gattaoua.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm holding out for Gattaoua.

Sounds too much like the name of a bread company.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I agree, we don't have to merge the cities (yet) but we certainly can start by merging STO & OCTranspo. Having a single map, website, travel planner, unified schedules, and fare structure, would all go a long way into improving transit mobility within the NCR.

The online common trip planner already exists.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

However, I don't think the NCC is trying to be constructive. This report was released nearly 3.5 years after its original "completion" date was projected. The NCC has spent that time watering it down.

Perhaps we now know why.

Either which way, in truth it's about a decade late. We needed this in 2003, in time for our own 2003 TMP and before the Rapibus project had been planned.

Maybe the Ontario portion could be carved out of Ontario, as Washington was out of Maryland. But Quebec plays Virginia in this version.

Well, in fact, both Maryland and Virginia ceded land to create the US federal capitol district... a perfectly square tract of land oriented like a diamond.

The Virginia side, Alexandria County, was "retrocessed" in 1846 at the demand of its residents because Congress ignored them and because they feared the banning of the slave trade, which was "bad" for them because they were a major slave trading market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distric...a_retrocession

For reasons unknown the Americans seem to treat their federal district as some kind of domestic colony, denying it, unlike the Australians, representation in both houses of Congress. But they get three electoral college votes in the presidential election, the minimum for any state. Go figure.

Anyway, no danger of undergovernment in Ottawa.


While carving Ottawa out of Ontario would no doubt be helpful on many issues, it still wouldn't address the mutual ignorance problem Ottawa and Gatineau have.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by litreofcola

This is the quote I refer to, just to be clear. Not a shot at the person who posted this, just the sentiment itself.

Thanks.

Just to be the devil's advocate, there are some questions that a merger of the STO and OC Transpo would raise.

I think Gatineau would have a legitimate concern that given the relative size of the two cities the new transit operator might give short-shrift to services and development on the Gatineau side.

Also, looking at it from Ottawans' perspective given that there is no way Gatineau would accept anything less than wall-to-wall bilingual front-line staff, this means that 65% or so of Ottawans would effectively be shut out from most jobs at their own city's transit system.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The online common trip planner already exists.

Sort of. They share the same back end (ie. the same data) but the front ends are quite different.

It's not exactly a 'one stop' travel planner.