Toll tunnel under east Atlanta a top DOT proposal

[Free]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well everybody should pay the true price of gas, but why take the gas tax money paid in by the working man to fuel his vehicle and give it to somebody else? That's just hurting the middle class folks who are trying to get to their jobs and put food on their family's table.

This is preposterous. Those who do not see how true transit options (i.e. something other than a car) benefit all are so shortsighted. Do you not realize that having a strong light rail, train or subway system will actually alleviate the traffic you experience while trying to get to your job and put food on your family's table? Not to mention the amount of reduced wear and tear on roads. And I have not even to brought up the environmental benefits...

[L41A]

Metro Atlanta has enough limited-access roadways (freeways). If peep who count themselves as conservative were really serious about improving the mobility by automobile in Atlanta in a cost-effective way, they would concentrate on improving the automobile mobility on secondary streets (all-access) roadways. It would be cheaper and probably will add more automobile mobility than adding more freeway lanes or a tunnel.

If you live anywhere near 285 and travel into the city by car, traffic is not as bad as peep protest. You don't live in Tifton (no offense to Tifton). For peep who live 10-15 miles outside 285, its gonna take you at least 20 minutes just to get to 285 - what do you expect? Everything is far from you unless you are traveling within your zip code.

I'd like to see more transit options. We have heavy rail and plenty of freeways. We need to improve where we are lacking which may include all or some of the following: better street connectivity, commuter rail, and light rail.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by Free

This is preposterous. Those who do not see how true transit options (i.e. something other than a car) benefit all are so shortsighted. Do you not realize that having a strong light rail, train or subway system will actually alleviate the traffic you experience while trying to get to your job and put food on your family's table? Not to mention the amount of reduced wear and tear on roads. And I have not even to brought up the environmental benefits...

Well you can call it preposterous and shortsighted but I'd be interested in knowing how many of Atlanta's hip young intowners have abandoned their cars for mass transit. While I'm sure there are a few on the whole we are still an auto town even where we have rails and buses.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well you can call it preposterous and shortsighted but I'd be interested in knowing how many of Atlanta's hip young intowners have abandoned their cars for mass transit. While I'm sure there are a few on the whole we are still an auto town even where we have rails and buses.

Your system has too many holes in it still , to even work. You need light rail , connector lines , commuter Rail , and a larger MARTA system. Highways are great and all but Atlanta has reached a point where , you need to start building more Transit. Your system is not bad , but its just missing alot of things. 10 billion is enough to build a Commuter Rail network in Georgia , SC & NC and a High Speed line with 130mph trains.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well you can call it preposterous and shortsighted but I'd be interested in knowing how many of Atlanta's hip young intowners have abandoned their cars for mass transit. While I'm sure there are a few on the whole we are still an auto town even where we have rails and buses.

and thats the way things should be for the next 30 years
i'm not sure but i think atlanta georgia will be the only city following that concept

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

That doesn't make any bit of difference considering that Georgia is one of the few states that applies its general sales tax to gasoline. The price you pay at the pump isn't any lower than you pay in most comparable states as a result.

good point.

i guess i would say even though the fully loaded price georgians pay per gallon is only marginally lower when compared to neighboring states, it seems like we often pay at least 10% less than people in states like california and new york.

all i'm suggesting is (given the transit challenges facing atlanta) an incremental gas tax is probably in order as a way to help pay for alternative transit and/or the tens of billions of dollars of road projects proposed by the GDOT.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well it seems to me that is what I said quote unquote.

As far as helping out the working man by taking his hard-earned tax dollars and diverting it away from road improvements and putting them into some highfalutin "transit option", well with all due respect thats a pipe dream. The city is just way too spread out for it.

Even where there is plenty of mass transit most people won't ride it. Go stand by the bus stop in Virginia-Highland or Peachtree Hills or Grant Park and send me a picture of how big the crowd is. How are you going to get some lady up here on Powder Springs Road to take the bus to the grocery store? Is my cousin on Five Forks Trickum Road going to park his truck and take the bus to Perimeter Mall? I don't think so.

your truck driving cousin in gwinnett is never going to go to perimeter mall, i'm just sayin.

[netdragon]

Luckily, "Big ticket" projects are not prioritized very high in the 2010-2030 STIP. This will probably have to be a privately funded toll-supported project. Therefore, I believe lawsuits will kill it unless it ends up being a beneficial project in the end and has no negative impact on neighborhoods. We'll probably see managed HOT lanes have a greater impact than an underground tunnel would have.

Toll lanes are a good idea since they can fund BRT, rail, and streetcar projects, however toll lanes should be done when there will be an immediate payoff. A toll tunnell won't have an immediate payoff.

http://www.it3.ga.gov/Pages/SB200.aspx

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

I have a theory... I bet if you took out one lane in each direction on the connector and replaced it with a barrier, separating each direction into local and express (with express exits only at the existing HOV exits and I-20), traffic flow would actually improve.

That's called a "collector". One was built for midtown on I-75 South at Atlantic Station. The recent study for the 2010-2030 STIP showed that HOT (high-occupancy toll) lanes paired with BRT, arterials (suburban) and streetcars (urban) would have the most positive impact. Light rail in place of BRT wasn't too far behind (and I imagine would do better in some portions of the inner metro).

Originally Posted by cybele

Well the first I heard of it it came from something called the Reason Foundation.

http://reason.org/news/show/126861.html

The reason foundation is a non-progressive organization that is for anything that involves spending no money on infrastructure aside from existing spending on highway. It's a front for the far right to expound their ideologies. The above mentioned report shows that the Reason Foundations' lines of no-build thinking (unless privately funded) will basically sink Atlanta.

Originally Posted by cybele

Well I wouldn't mind paying $8 to drive to the airport. You wouldn't take this tunnel to midtown.

Why? Drive to Sandy Springs, park at a cheaper parking garage, and take MARTA.

Originally Posted by STrek777

How sad. That PDF has enough to make you want to cry [referring to http://www.dot.state.ga.us/informati...%20Sheets.pdf]. All those projects together cost about 10 BILLION! Yet the Beltline project beggs for help, ....

Not one of these projects are geared toward the city they are all geared toward getting around or out of Atlanta.

I disagree. The managed lane 285 project will have a significant impact on traffic in the city (people cutting through Northern Atlanta to avoid 285) and the planned BRT will be a feeder for MARTA, increasing MARTA revenues. Furthermore, the North-end perimeter is as much the city of Atlanta as Buckhead and midtown. Just because it isn't in the city boundaries doesn't matter.

The I-400 managed lanes will also have significant impact on the city of Atlanta because they will allow BRT once again to feed MARTA.

I agree the I-75 and I-575 connections to town center will not feed Atlanta in the same way if they end there. Instead, they will feed Kenessaw town center area as an alternative to Atlanta.

However, the gamble is also that since they will be funded largely by federal dollars, they will bring a net surplus for Atlanta through HOT toll revenues.

Originally Posted by cybele

Well everybody should pay the true price of gas, but why take the gas tax money paid in by the working man to fuel his vehicle and give it to somebody else? That's just hurting the middle class folks who are trying to get to their jobs and put food on their family's table.

No, cars + suburban development hurt middle class folks. Cars + suburban real estate was the biggest ponzi scheme in the history of the United States after the federal reserve and hurt more people in the middle class get into debt than live the American dream. A higher gas tax in Atlanta would fund transit that would help middle class people cheaply get to work and live in sustainable communities where they can walk to shop instead of drive a car and pay for more gas.

Although, unlike a statewide sales tax, I only think a supplemental gas tax should be in metro Atlanta where cars are really hurting the metro, it will help fund more affordable modes of transportation for you. Perhaps someday you won't even need a car. Think about how much money you would save.

Originally Posted by cybele

As far as helping out the working man by taking his hard-earned tax dollars and diverting it away from road improvements and putting them into some highfalutin "transit option", well with all due respect thats a pipe dream. The city is just way too spread out for it.

Even where there is plenty of mass transit most people won't ride it. Go stand by the bus stop in Virginia-Highland or Peachtree Hills or Grant Park and send me a picture of how big the crowd is. How are you going to get some lady up here on Powder Springs Road to take the bus to the grocery store? Is my cousin on Five Forks Trickum Road going to park his truck and take the bus to Perimeter Mall? I don't think so.

Another failed argument. But before that, I have to ask what does highfalutin mean? Is that part of the English language? (rhetorical question, I know it's old-fashioned southern slang)

The reason that it's a failed argument is because "the city is too spread out" argument (a commonly made argument of ignorance) fails to pay attention to two factors:
1. You don't need last-mile rail for long-haul trips. For suburban areas, parking garages at transit stations (like in Sandy Springs) allow people to drive the first/last mile and then park at the transit station. If there were a station and garage in Cumberland, I'd use it even though I live 2 miles away in Smyrna.
2. Transit-centric development would grow up around stations because stations encourage sustainable development. Look at the new mixed-use development in Inman Park for instance. Need I mention Buckhead and midtown? Do you remember what midtown looked like 5 years ago? I doubt it! It was very sparse if you recall, aside from a few pockets. Have you seen all the high density development going up at the Perimeter Center?
3. Your examples were bad since these neighborhoods are close enough to drive and most people living there work intown. No one is going to even drive to a parking garage for a transit station when they are a mile from downtown. Turn that around and consider someone who could jump on a train in Kennessaw and ride it downtown. Big difference. They avoid a lot of traffic that way. Your Powder Springs example, though, is easier to attack. I can easily see a woman hopping on a train from Powder Springs to Cumberland or Buckhead to do some shopping. People in Southern CT hop on trains to shop in Manhatten all the time.
4. Alternately, it will allow people to live in disparate activity centers.

Now jumping back to the original argument: The correct way to say it (and I touched on this) is that Atlanta has multiple major activity centers that are quickly getting seperated from each other by car during peak travel times:
* Buckhead
* Midtown
* Downtown
* Cumberland
* Perimeter Center
* Gwinnett Center
* Fulton Industrial
* Airport

Now, if there were a parking garage in each and metro rail or even BRT between them, then you could just park at the one you live at and shop/work/play at any. Walking can be augmented by streetcars in those areas.

Furthermore, the HOT lanes and other tolling not involving adding new lane miles will address this by forcing people off the road during peak travel times unless they need to. The aforementioned study showed that around 60% of people who travel on the road during peak times are not doing it to get to work.

By the way, people won't ride it? I guess that's why MARTA has only 275,000 riders a day. How many people live in the city of Atlanta? Around twice that, right? I guess nobody uses MARTA, well at least only half the city. I see the logic in how that equates to nobody?

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

your truck driving cousin in gwinnett is never going to go to perimeter mall, i'm just sayin.

Well that's where he works out of so he's got to get there.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by netdragon

Another failed argument. But before that, I have to ask what does highfalutin mean? Is that part of the English language? (rhetorical question, I know it's old-fashioned southern slang)

Well here's what it says in the dictionary:

Main Entry: high·fa·lu·tin
Variant(s): also hi·fa·lu·tin \ˌhī-fə-ˈlü-tən\
Function: adjective
Etymology: perhaps from 2high + alteration of fluting, present participle of flute
Date: 1839

1 : pretentious, fancy
2 : expressed in or marked by the use of high-flown bombastic language : pompous

Highfalutin, as in, erroneously claiming other people don't know what the English language is.


On the thing about driving to Sandy Springs, going into a parking lot, switching over to a train and riding to the airport, all I can tell you is that I could be to the airport and back in the same amount of time in the Buick. Plus we would have the comfort and security of our own vehicle. And we could load the luggage right in the trunk without having to haul it all over creation. Maybe things like that aren't a big deal if you're a young whippersnapper but if you're getting on up there yourself and are picking up your 89 year old mother in law then it makes a world of difference.

And I don't believe cars and suburbs were the biggest ponzi scheme in history. Yes they have had their problems but they are also a big part of what made America great over many generations. They provided a safe and beautiful home to countless millions of Americans and are still the envy of much of the world. Can they be improved, yes, but it doesn't do any good to trash talk people's homes and treat them like they are the ruination of society.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well here's what it says in the dictionary:

Main Entry: high·fa·lu·tin
Variant(s): also hi·fa·lu·tin \ˌhī-fə-ˈlü-tən\
Function: adjective
Etymology: perhaps from 2high + alteration of fluting, present participle of flute
Date: 1839

1 : pretentious, fancy
2 : expressed in or marked by the use of high-flown bombastic language : pompous

Highfalutin, as in, erroneously claiming other people don't know what the English language is.


On the thing about driving to Sandy Springs, going into a parking lot, switching over to a train and riding to the airport, all I can tell you is that I could be to the airport and back in the same amount of time in the Buick. Plus we would have the comfort and security of our own vehicle. And we could load the luggage right in the trunk without having to haul it all over creation. Maybe things like that aren't a big deal if you're a young whippersnapper but if you're getting on up there yourself and are picking up your 89 year old mother in law then it makes a world of difference.

And I don't believe cars and suburbs were the biggest ponzi scheme in history. Yes they have had their problems but they are also a big part of what made America great over many generations. They provided a safe and beautiful home to countless millions of Americans and are still the envy of much of the world. Can they be improved, yes, but it doesn't do any good to trash talk people's homes and treat them like they are the ruination of society.

I see alot of "young at heart" people doing just that everyday

[L41A]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well here's what it says in the dictionary:

Main Entry: high·fa·lu·tin
Variant(s): also hi·fa·lu·tin \ˌhī-fə-ˈlü-tən\
Function: adjective
Etymology: perhaps from 2high + alteration of fluting, present participle of flute
Date: 1839

1 : pretentious, fancy
2 : expressed in or marked by the use of high-flown bombastic language : pompous

Highfalutin, as in, erroneously claiming other people don't know what the English language is.


On the thing about driving to Sandy Springs, going into a parking lot, switching over to a train and riding to the airport, all I can tell you is that I could be to the airport and back in the same amount of time in the Buick. Plus we would have the comfort and security of our own vehicle. And we could load the luggage right in the trunk without having to haul it all over creation. Maybe things like that aren't a big deal if you're a young whippersnapper but if you're getting on up there yourself and are picking up your 89 year old mother in law then it makes a world of difference.

And I don't believe cars and suburbs were the biggest ponzi scheme in history. Yes they have had their problems but they are also a big part of what made America great over many generations. They provided a safe and beautiful home to countless millions of Americans and are still the envy of much of the world. Can they be improved, yes, but it doesn't do any good to trash talk people's homes and treat them like they are the ruination of society.

Which should explain why the tunnel, freeway expansion, etc is not necessary if you could hop in your Buick and get to the airport. So what was your complaint before? We all could point out particular situations where driving to the airport may be more convenient (ie. lot of luggage, picking someone up, etc). If you seek to find something wrong, inconvenient about anything, you surely will find it. Methinks you protest too much.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Originally Posted by L41A

Which should explain why the tunnel, freeway expansion, etc is not necessary if you could hop in your Buick and get to the airport. So what was your complaint before? We all could point out particular situations where driving to the airport may be more convenient (ie. lot of luggage, picking someone up, etc). If you seek to find something wrong, inconvenient about anything, you surely will find it. Methinks you protest too much.

I think his protests are fine as long as the argument is lets build a toll interstate instead of nothing.which considering how georgia legislature works its likely nothing will be built
once you add other options into the mix thats when it becomes a contradiction lets build a toll highway instead of <insert form of mass transit> because current mass transit inconviences me more than current non mass transit.
the contradiction being if current non mass transit is that conveint why do you need another toll interstate highway.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well that's where he works out of so he's got to get there.

well, alternative transit certainly isn't a mandate. if he's happy driving his truck from gwinnett to perimeter, so be it. that doesn't mean, however, that the state should continue the past 60 years of a transportation policy that is singularly focused on the car and highways.

don't get me wrong, i love my car, i love driving it, i love road trips, i have the need for speed every now and then, but i'm sensible enough to admit it's time to make available more equitable, environmental, pedestrian friendly and convenient modes of transportation OTHER than the automobile.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

... i'm sensible enough to admit it's time to make available more equitable, environmental, pedestrian friendly and convenient modes of transportation OTHER than the automobile.

Well we're on the same page with that. Sometimes you just get the impression that people hate cars and hate the suburbs when in fact they are what made the city what it is today.

[ATLaffinity]

Cybele's baiting aside...

Residents of midtown and VaHi shat all over the Beltline proposals for urban density and connectivity for the NE Beltline.

They aren't keen on giving up their slice of suburbia in the center of the city.

[cybele]

Well I don't believe it's baiting to acknowledge that probably 95% of Atlantans (inside and outside the city limits) live in suburbs and use the automobile as one of their main ways of getting around. We've been lucky to have enough land to spread out and give folks a little patch of greenspace they can call their own. We should consider more rail and buses but we've got to allocate our limited transportation dollars where they serve the most people.

On the Beltline thing, why does more density have to be put in Virginia-Highland. That's a well established, high functioning neighborhood -- one of Atlanta's fragile jewels that survived the turmoil of the 1960s and 70s and came back stronger than ever?

If you look at those great Beltline pictures taken by jew4life4948 in the other thread it's plain that there are zillions of untapped acres as far as the eye can see. When I went to some Beltline meetings they were saying one of the main goals was to create equitable development all around the city instead of just pouring everything into the Northeast quadrant.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by cybele

We should consider more rail and buses but we've got to allocate our limited transportation dollars where they serve the most people.

Exactly why rail is the right choice. It serves the greatest number of people and encourages sustainable growth. Most people in the United States live in urbanized areas. The inner metro is dense enough to support rail between activity centers and keep it filled. I understand it may not have been appropriate at the time of the original build out of Marta because cobb only had 200k people at the time (like Cherokee county now), however Cobb is now really itching for a rail connection.

Originally Posted by cybele

On the Beltline thing, why does more density have to be put in Virginia-Highland. That's a well established, high functioning neighborhood -- one of Atlanta's fragile jewels that survived the turmoil of the 1960s and 70s and came back stronger than ever?

It's funny - it would drive up their land values so I don't know why they fight it. Instead, they can stare in envy as they watch the beltline get built on the West end, the West end gets more shopping, etc and see the land values shoot up on the West End. If that happens, people from VaHi will be driving to the West end to do things much like they drive to Buckhead and Inman Park now, wondering why their area has nothing to do.

Originally Posted by cybele

When I went to some Beltline meetings they were saying one of the main goals was to create equitable development all around the city instead of just pouring everything into the Northeast quadrant.

It will also be in NW Atlanta as well and connect into the Marietta Blvd/N. Ave streetcar that is part of Concept 3.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by netdragon

It's funny - it would drive up their land values so I don't know why they fight it. Instead, they can stare in envy as they watch the beltline get built on the West end, the West end gets more shopping, etc and see the land values shoot up on the West End. If that happens, people from VaHi will be driving to the West end to do things much like they drive to Buckhead and Inman Park now, wondering why their area has nothing to do.

Well there's plenty to do in Virginia-Highland, what's wrong with having a nice peaceful family neighborhood? And if it does change someday, shouldn't the people who live there and who've invested every dime they have in their homes be the ones to say so.

If you want to get transit going start with some nice bus lines, and I mean nice sleek modern ones, not old broken down ugly buses. That way you can move the routes around and find out where people want them to go. You can also find out if people will give up their cars for mass transit. If it turns out you have enough ridership for rail someday, then you can upgrade with confidence instead of just a wing and a prayer.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by cybele

If you want to get transit going start with some nice bus lines, and I mean nice sleek modern ones, not old broken down ugly buses. That way you can move the routes around and find out where people want them to go. You can also find out if people will give up their cars for mass transit. If it turns out you have enough ridership for rail someday, then you can upgrade with confidence instead of just a wing and a prayer.

There has already been study upon study upon study. There is no question where the highest riderships would be. I personally believe it's a waste of money, for instance, building BRT between the activity centers of the Perimeter Center and Cumberland when it is just going to be replaced by LRT someday anyway. Furthermore, a dedicated line attracts more development and is a much better backbone for streetcars, etc. You can see why businesses are nervous to locate along a BRT line unless it has a dedicated right of way, since the BRT line could move. However, once BRT goes in, streetcars will follow, and it's not like BRT can be moved anyway. It's better to get it right the first time instead of half doing it and just start with BRT. I can see the bus argument out in places like Woodstock, however on 285 top-end, it is already too established to have to guess where the lines should go. Plus, I won't usually ride a bus unless it's designed to look like rail, on dedicated lines and have no step up. Most people are of the same mindset.