How Does Quebec See Itself Without Canada?

[Razor]

Just want to hear from especially Quebecers on this subject..The flip side of the other thread, and no I'm not trying to start a riot here..I'm genuinely curious. Mature discussion hopefully.

[lio45]

I don't think a lot of things would be different anyway...

I'd be OK with either way. I mean, we'd still have likely free trade and pretty open borders. In practice, it wouldn't really be such a big deal. I'd nonetheless vote no, for the record.

[G.S MTL]

How does Alberta see itself without Canada? lol.. these stupid threads will only cause arguments. REMOVE it please.

[ue]

^ Except that Quebec has a decent chance of one day being without Canada politically. There are serious reasons to Quebec independence which one can agree or disagree with, but they are valid nonetheless. Alberta? Not so much. Alberta relies too much and is too similar to the rest of the (English-speaking) country, whether it admits to it or not. I think this is an interesting thread Razor, and a great juxtaposition to my earlier thread about Quebec within Canada. Let's see where the conversation goes.

[lio45]

Does it matter so much whether or not, say, France and Germany are politically united? They have similar policies, share a currency, have open borders, etc. In practice, you could have them merged, they'd still be culturally different, with Germans in the German part and Frenchmen in the French part. And the two have already been mixing at the interface anyway (just look at Alsace). I imagine Strasbourg would be the capital of the country, and a German Gatineau could develop on the other bank of the Rhine.

But I don't think it would change much for them, in practice.

[lio45]

^ I think many people here happen to think like that, hence why the reaction to the sovereignist movement is a bit more "meh" nowadays than usual.

I for one know that my reaction is "meh", and that I would vote no. (Except of course if the reason we're splitting is to join the US as 51st state. Then I'm voting yes.)

[MexiQuebecois]

It would be in both "countries'" best interest to maintain a healthy relationship. With that said, I'd (most likely) vote no. As an immigrant and future citizen, will I get to keep both citizenships (Quebec and Canada)? What about my Ontarian wife who just moved here? Will she now be an immigrant?

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MexiQuebecois

What about my Ontarian wife who just moved here? Will she now be an immigrant?

LOL, I'm sure she's already considered an immigrant.

[MexiQuebecois]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

LOL, I'm sure she's already considered an immigrant.

Hahaha. That's so ironic, considering she's a Mohawk aboriginal born in Ontario

[Antigonish]

I'm not so sure Quebec and Canada would have a very healthy relationship if Quebec just upped and left. Sorry, not trolling either that's just the reality of it.

[Acajack]

Contrary to what many in the ROC think, most people in Quebec (even Non voters) don't think it would be that catastrophic.

My own view is that Quebec would likely go into a recession and come out of it a few years later.

So for example had the Oui side won in 1995, any transitional pains from that would be long, long gone by now.

I don't think there would be anglo exodus overnight (though some would leave right away), but there would be constant trickle of anglo outmigration. Probably within 5 or 10 years the anglo community might be half of what it is today, and then it would stabilize at that level.

There would not be a great migration of francophones from the ROC to Quebec, except for those who are orignally from Quebec and who only intended to stay there temporarily anyway. Quebec independence would accelerate the decline of ROC francophone communities that are already declining (most of them except for NB Acadians) but these groups would for the most part not move to Quebec to "save their French".

New Brunswick will likely stay bilingual as a province, but the federal government would likely scale back bilingualism and limit it to certain regions like northern and southeastern NB, and all things federal would become English only with time.

Quebec would likely maintain a similar level of services in English though these could decline in the face of reduced demand. Quebec would likely merge all French and English public schools into a single school system with perhaps 85% of the day in French and 15% of the day in English. I would expect that anglo universities like McGill will remain essentially the same as they are today in their functioning.

I also wonder if the northern aboriginal dominated regions of Quebec, after a bit of pushing and pulling between Ottawa and Quebec, might not end up remaining as near-independent regions of an independent Quebec flushed with cash from Quebec City.

I expect that the only other area to make a serious fuss about partition is the Pontiac west of Gatineau, and I have no idea how that would turn out.

Attempts to separate Gatineau or Montreal from Quebec will not go anywhere.

Trade in goods would continue largely as it does today, as would the flow of traffic between Ontario and New Brunswick.

There would be no border control points but in order to work or settle in either country people from the other would need a work permit.

Those in Quebec who wish to stay there and retain their Canadian citizenship would be allowed to do so, but they would have to apply for a special permit to move to Canada.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

I'm not so sure Quebec and Canada would have a very healthy relationship if Quebec just upped and left. Sorry, not trolling either that's just the reality of it.

Only if people are bitter and resentful that they left (and even then it would fade over time). I think an independent Quebec would actually create a better social and cultural relationship between the two - as there would be no "politics" clouding the relationship. We could appreciate each other for what we offer without having to be guarded about it. It's sort of like having a cool neighbour next door. You get along well and have fun with each other, but you don't actually want the guy living with you.

It would be mutually disadvantageous economically however, and would limit the extent of our global influence.

[Kitchissippi]

If Quebec separated, there would be very little reason for Canada to keep official bilingualism, as Acajack mentioned. It would either be scaled back or eliminated altogether because there would be no appetite to fund it. The disadvantage to Quebec is that in the future, it would be forced to deal with the rest of Canada entirely in English, much like it would have to deal with the United States. Ironically, Quebec would then have to internalize the issue of bilingualism with its relationship to its larger neighbours.

Bilingual product labelling, for example, could no longer be mandatory in Canada which means corporations would forgo marketing to a much smaller francophone niche in Quebec. This would have a huge negative impact on Montreal's economy, as it functions a a cultural translator and generator for all of Canada, not just Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The disadvantage to Quebec is that in the future, it would be forced to deal with the rest of Canada entirely in English, much like it would have to deal with the United States. .

Except that Quebec already deals with the rest of Canada entirely in English today...

(Unless we are not taking about the same thing.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Bilingual product labelling, for example, could no longer be mandatory in Canada which means corporations would forgo marketing to a much smaller francophone niche in Quebec.

Not likely that they would forgo a market of 8 million people. They don't forgo Iceland do they? Or Slovenia?

Anyway, labelling is peanuts for large corporations.

[Kitchissippi]

But Slovenia is part of the EU market and Iceland is on its way in. I visited Slovenia before it was EU, and product selection was really poor.

Quite a few American companies forgo the Canadian market altogether because it is too much of a hassle with our differing regulations. Labelling is just the tip of the iceberg, there's customer service and other aspects of business. Before 2003 , even Mountain Equipment Coop resisted opening a store in Montreal because of the cost of fully bilingualizing its operations despite already having bilingual labels.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

But Slovenia is part of the EU market and Iceland is on its way in. I visited Slovenia before it was EU, and product selection was really poor.

Quite a few American companies forgo the Canadian market altogether because it is too much of a hassle with our differing regulations. Labelling is just the tip of the iceberg, there's customer service and other aspects of business. Before 2003 , even Mountain Equipment Coop resisted opening a store in Montreal because of the cost of fully bilingualizing its operations despite already having bilingual labels.

So if we go all the way with this logic, the moral of the story is to harmonize everything the way they have it in the States, and then we will have "optimal" product selection and everything will be great!

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

But Slovenia is part of the EU market and Iceland is on its way in. I visited Slovenia before it was EU, and product selection was really poor.

Quite a few American companies forgo the Canadian market altogether because it is too much of a hassle with our differing regulations. Labelling is just the tip of the iceberg, there's customer service and other aspects of business. Before 2003 , even Mountain Equipment Coop resisted opening a store in Montreal because of the cost of fully bilingualizing its operations despite already having bilingual labels.

The example with Slovenia was more about population I think... Quebec has a much larger economy (and 4 times the population) and has already a good product selection.

And with Mountain Equipment Coop, well the expanded in Quebec finally. There must be a reason...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

........

Those in Quebec who wish to stay there and retain their Canadian citizenship would be allowed to do so, but they would have to apply for a special permit to move to Canada.

One of countless issues Canada would be obliged to wrestle with. Absent changes to current law, all Canadians resident in Quebec would retain their Canadian citizenship unless they renounced it. As Canadians they could live anywhere in Canada, without restriction (the idea of a "special permit" seems farfetched to me, but who knows?). Canada would need to consider whether it would be in its best interest to retain the current citizenship law or make (possibly drastic) changes that could have implications extending far beyond Quebec.

I suppose on the Quebec side, the big question would be "who is a Quebec national"? Resident in Quebec on the day of independence (some provision for landed immigrants)? Born in Quebec, wherever resident? Child of Quebec born parents resident outside Quebec? Dual nationality permitted? etc, etc.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except that Quebec already deals with the rest of Canada entirely in English today...

(Unless we are not taking about the same thing.)

Exactly. I don't know what he's talking about, but I can say, as a Québécois businessman, that on the language front, there is exactly zero difference between our main suppliers in Texas/Oklahoma, and the couple ones that we have in Mississauga.

Maybe I'll try in French only next time I'm on the phone with Mississauga... just for kicks...