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  #21  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2019, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
I'm not sure what your point is?
That seeing buildings being razed, turning a neighborhood temporarily into a semi-vacant zone, is less painful if the buildings are very basic and bland and architecturally uninteresting...?

Wasn't that clear...? Seriously.
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  #22  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2019, 6:47 PM
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I find it different how single family home neighbourhoods would have the highest levels of poverty and crime in a large city like Chicago.
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  #23  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2019, 7:48 PM
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^ I disagree. Immigration is not the solution, at least not in the beginning.

Demographics in Chicago prove that if you don’t have a crime issue and a neighborhood is perceived as safe, people will want to live there if they can afford it.

The problem is crime and gangs. We need to be tough as nails on crime and we need to bust up the gangs. Unfortunately, the one-party system that leads Chicago is too lax on crime. Increasingly, police have to walk on eggshells while doing their jobs and they deal with a court system that lets criminals off with a slap on the wrist.

This notion that “crime is a social problem” that can only be fixed by Sociologists with a PhD isn’t working, and every day kids are dying because of it. Criminals are bad people. Gangbangers are bad people. They have no morals. They are terrorizing the neighborhoods that they conduct their violent behavior in, and when we take it easy on them we roll out the red carpet for them, while innocent people suffer. We need to be much, much harder on them and we need to do so now.

That will save lives and begin Englewood on a path towards revitalization
Isn't the FBI/other Federal agencies at least partially responsible for the massive increase in shootings and murders that occurred in 2015, though? If I recall correctly, the Feds actively tried to break up many of the major gangs in the South/SW sides of the city. The fractioning of several large gangs into dozens of smaller ones increased turf wars significantly, thus much more violence.

I don't disagree that the continued presence of violence in the area is the biggest deterrent to Englewood's (and other such neighborhoods) rebirth. I'm just not entirely sure how to deal with it.

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  #24  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2019, 3:48 AM
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Originally Posted by samne View Post
I find it different how single family home neighbourhoods would have the highest levels of poverty and crime in a large city like Chicago.
Englewood isn't really a single family home neighborhood. Detached single family homes only constitute ~22% of the neighborhood's housing units (similar to chicago's overall proportion).

Like most Chicago neighborhoods, Englewood's housing stock is primarily comprised of flats and small apartment buildings.

Back in the day Englewood sported a population density of ~35,000 ppsm. You don't get to that kind of density figure with detached SFH's.
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  #25  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2019, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That seeing buildings being razed, turning a neighborhood temporarily into a semi-vacant zone, is less painful if the buildings are very basic and bland and architecturally uninteresting...?

Wasn't that clear...? Seriously.
Uhh ok, how does this apply to Englewood since the housing stock is the opposite of bland and architecturally uninteresting? The pics you saw are not representative of the entire area.
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  #26  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2019, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Englewood isn't really a single family home neighborhood. Detached single family homes only constitute ~22% of the neighborhood's housing units (similar to chicago's overall proportion).

Like most Chicago neighborhoods, Englewood's housing stock is primarily comprised of flats and small apartment buildings.

Back in the day Englewood sported a population density of ~35,000 ppsm. You don't get to that kind of density figure with detached SFH's.
Ive never been there. Im just looking at the pictures in the article are all SFH. Did a quick google maps too.
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  #27  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2019, 3:16 PM
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I’ve driven through Englewood 2-3 times. It’s sad.

63rd and Halsted used to be the biggest commercial hub in Chicago outside of downtown back in the day. Google pics of it back then and then visit it via streetview today.

Amazing how much we’ve destroyed
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  #28  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2019, 4:14 PM
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^ I want to know who is responsible for the construction of a massive strip mall at that intersection. Literally right across the street from a transit station. They should be fired and run out of town to a place more fitting of such horrid urban design, like say Dallas.
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
^ I want to know who is responsible for the construction of a massive strip mall at that intersection. Literally right across the street from a transit station. They should be fired and run out of town to a place more fitting of such horrid urban design, like say Dallas.
For the one person who gets more offended than anyone else on this forum by the mere mention of your city, you sure do like to knock other places down all the time don't ya?

Fact is, the average person in Detroit and the average person in Dallas probably live quite similar lives...in almost all ways.
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  #30  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 1:35 AM
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Originally Posted by samne View Post
I find it different how single family home neighbourhoods would have the highest levels of poverty and crime in a large city like Chicago.
That's pretty much the norm in the U.S. Most places tore down their housing projects, and market-rate apartment buildings have either been torn down or gentrified.

And Chicago's wealthiest residents generally live in SFH, even in neighborhoods where multifamily is the norm.
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  #31  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 1:38 AM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
^ I want to know who is responsible for the construction of a massive strip mall at that intersection. Literally right across the street from a transit station. They should be fired and run out of town to a place more fitting of such horrid urban design, like say Dallas.
Many retail chains won't open without parking. I seriously doubt a random chain retailer would open an Englewood location sans parking. They wouldn't even open a South Loop location sans parking.
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  #32  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Those houses seem very very basic in terms of architecture though... not that great a loss (from a heritage POV).

I noticed a big difference when contrasting these Englewood photos to the architecture of the average blighted Detroit neighborhood
englewood certainly has/had its fair share of rather forgettable and undistinguished clapboard balloon frame workers cottages, but it also has/had a shit ton of very nice masonry multi-family - flats, courtyard buildings, corner apartment blocks, etc.

there is still some very nice residential vernacular standing in englewood, but rest assured that much of what it once had has already been lost forever. as i mentioned earlier, this neighborhood used to have a population density of 35,000 ppsm. sadly, it never will again in any of our lifetimes.

america is stupid.



higher quality englewood residential vernacular that still remains, but when you zoom out, you can get a sense of what's already been lost:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7754...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7705...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7824...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7808...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7668...7i16384!8i8192

and so on......



Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
^ I want to know who is responsible for the construction of a massive strip mall at that intersection. Literally right across the street from a transit station
that kind of garbage happens all over chicago when land isn't valuable enough to do anything more interesting. it really, really sucks.

63rd/halsted used to be a real place back in the day:


source: http://www.earthwander.com/Roots/Swa...rd-Halsted.htm

and now?

holy fuck, america is stupid: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7797...7i16384!8i8192
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Aug 26, 2019 at 4:52 PM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and now?

holy fuck, america is stupid: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7797...7i16384!8i8192
Just a casual observation.

Obviously this area is suffering.

Most of us would concur that at least some great character buildings have been lost, that holes have been left in the urban fabric and that things certainly could be better in that neck of the woods.

For all of that.....

That link shows me fairly elegant streetlights, some street trees, sidewalks in mostly decent condition, and retailers including Chipotle and Starbucks that one typically does not associated w/dystopias or struggling neighbourhoods.

Its a curious juxtaposition.
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  #34  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
^ I want to know who is responsible for the construction of a massive strip mall at that intersection. Literally right across the street from a transit station. They should be fired and run out of town to a place more fitting of such horrid urban design, like say Dallas.
Retailers with a primarily suburban business model (that is, almost all large retailers) view a site with no parking as a major deficiency. They will demand a higher neighborhood income and strong demonstrated foot traffic to make up for the lack of parking. You can see the problem as it applies to low-income, urban neighborhoods...

If you want to bring major chains to such a poor neighborhood, you gotta provide parking, and architectural solutions like rooftop, stacked or underground parking only increase the construction cost so those are also avoided.
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  #35  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 6:11 PM
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Retailers with a primarily suburban business model (that is, almost all large retailers) view a site with no parking as a major deficiency. They will demand a higher neighborhood income and strong demonstrated foot traffic to make up for the lack of parking.
U.S. chain retailers are notorious for overestimating their parking needs in transit-rich neighborhoods. They could probably save themselves a ton of money by actually listening to planners and the community.

There's a huge 10-year old retail center in the South Bronx that has thousands of garage parking spaces. When it was built, locals insisted that the developer was wasting his money, as the neighborhood has like 30% auto ownership, and lower income households aren't gonna pay for garage parking anyways. They built it, and the garage sits 80% empty.

When Whole Foods was scouting Williamsburg, Brooklyn locations, the big holdup was their silly parking requirement. All the Manhattan Whole Foods have no parking, but for whatever reason, they insisted on parking for the Williamsburg location, even though car ownership is the same as Manhattan. They finally opened, with a paid underground garage, and it sits mostly empty. Neighborhood residents don't have cars, and those that do aren't typically gonna shell out $10 to pick up a few groceries.
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  #36  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post

That link shows me fairly elegant streetlights, some street trees, sidewalks in mostly decent condition, and retailers including Chipotle and Starbucks that one typically does not associated w/dystopias or struggling neighbourhoods.

Its a curious juxtaposition.
the city has gone all in to try to revitalize 63rd/halsted, so investment has been made, but it's being rebuilt in such an unfortunate suburban style that the hopes of this once great district ever recapturing some of its former urban glory have essentially been dashed.

as i said earlier, the land is simply too inexpensive to convince potential developers to anything more interesting than strip malls. i suppose the city could just ban strip malls, but then nothing would get built at all.

and the real root of the problem is the fact that there simply aren't enough people in this world who would want to live in englewood. the gun violence there really is off the freaking charts.
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  #37  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
When Whole Foods was scouting Williamsburg, Brooklyn locations, the big holdup was their silly parking requirement. All the Manhattan Whole Foods have no parking, but for whatever reason, they insisted on parking for the Williamsburg location, even though car ownership is the same as Manhattan. They finally opened, with a paid underground garage, and it sits mostly empty. Neighborhood residents don't have cars, and those that do aren't typically gonna shell out $10 to pick up a few groceries.
I go to that Whole Foods a lot and never even realized it had a parking lot. I used to go to the one in Gowanus a lot, and even though I often drove there, I always thought that parking lot was ridiculous.
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  #38  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the city has gone all in to try to revitalize 63rd/halsted, so investment has been made, but it's being rebuilt in such an unfortunate suburban style that the hopes of this once great district ever recapturing some of its former urban glory have essentially been dashed.

as i said earlier, the land is simply too inexpensive to convince potential developers to anything more interesting than strip malls. i suppose the city could just ban strip malls, but then nothing would get built at all.

and the real root of the problem is the fact that there simply aren't enough people in this world who would want to live in englewood. the gun violence there really is off the freaking charts.
Thanks for the info.

Not that it would be that marked of an improvement, but one can bend strip mall design a bit.

I don't just mean pastiche either.

I'm thinking about have restaurants that face the street, with patio space, even if they have an interior face w/parking in behind.

Parking can also be above grade, but hidden behind a second floor facade; or underground.

One might be think it would be possible to allow for parking but still create something fairly urban, even if it weren't ideal.
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  #39  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 8:16 PM
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^ for sure, there's always a better way to do something, but the adage "beggars can't be choosers" applies here.

don't expect any wheel reinventions here from developers who are taking a massive risk just from putting shovels in the ground in the first place.

land values in that part of town are NOWHERE high enough to warrant structured or underground parking. and if you try to mandate it, they'll walk.

they're gonna play it as safe as they can.
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  #40  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
U.S. chain retailers are notorious for overestimating their parking needs in transit-rich neighborhoods. They could probably save themselves a ton of money by actually listening to planners and the community.

There's a huge 10-year old retail center in the South Bronx that has thousands of garage parking spaces. When it was built, locals insisted that the developer was wasting his money, as the neighborhood has like 30% auto ownership, and lower income households aren't gonna pay for garage parking anyways. They built it, and the garage sits 80% empty.

When Whole Foods was scouting Williamsburg, Brooklyn locations, the big holdup was their silly parking requirement. All the Manhattan Whole Foods have no parking, but for whatever reason, they insisted on parking for the Williamsburg location, even though car ownership is the same as Manhattan. They finally opened, with a paid underground garage, and it sits mostly empty. Neighborhood residents don't have cars, and those that do aren't typically gonna shell out $10 to pick up a few groceries.
I can't speak for Brooklyn, but if Englewood is similar to other low-income Chicago n'hoods then roughly 2/3 of households have access to a car, and they're likely to use it for grocery shopping. CTA might have a Green Line stop across the street, but the density is a fraction of what you find in Williamsburg OR the South Bronx.

Based on Streetview images (May 2019), the parking is hardly empty.
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